Landlord lying about owner occupation

steddyeddy · 24-08-2013 12:38pm #1

Hi guys it's not an issue that affects me so I'm just asking out of interest really. A few colleagues I know moved into a house that was advertised as not being owner occupied. The landlord showed them around the house which was ok and then they accepted the terms of the lease and moved in.

When they moved in they were surprised to find the landlord sleeping in the living room for days on end. It seems he does live there and lied about it when showing the tenants around the house and on the advertisement.

Now the landlord recently evicted another tenant who complained and was evicted within a week because the landlord is an occupant and is required to give less notice.

What do people make of this story and is this common? First I heard of it!

jahalpin · 24-08-2013 2:47pm

Was the lease that your friends signed for the whole property? If so, I would have thought that the landlord would actually be trespassing by sleeping in the living room

As far as I know there are 2 different types of tenancies, one is the normal residential tenancy and the other is a rent a room scheme.

The rent a room scheme is more a licence to occupy than a lease , the tenant has substantially less rights under this scheme and can be asked to leave at short notice. The owner has to living in the house on a full-time basis for this scheme to apply

the_syco · 24-08-2013 2:54pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

The landlord showed them around the house which was ok and then they accepted the terms of the lease and moved in.

What are the terms of the lease? Do it mention the landlord in it?

I think that as they are living with an owner occupier, that they'd have to go through the small claims court rather than the PTRB if they were thrown out if the landlord is not mentioned as the owner occupier in the lease.

Also, point to note; if the landlord is not listed on the lease as living there, and the tenants are renting the house, they could involve the Gardai over the landlord trespassing :pac:

fasttalkerchat · 24-08-2013 10:25pm

He knows rightly he cant sleep on the sofa. Call the guards and say he let himself in and is sleeping on the sofa. If he's sober they will just tell him not to come back.

Are any of his belongings in the house? Maybe the wife kicked him out.

Pawwed Rig · 25-08-2013 12:38am

I suspect in this case that they are renting a room in a house rather than the whole property in which case the terms and clauses of the lease signed (if any) will be crucial.

I would suggest threshold as a first point of contact.

rizzodun · 25-08-2013 12:41am

Why is he sleeping in the living room, do the tenants occupy all the bedrooms?

steddyeddy · 25-08-2013 1:13am

He guys as I said it's nothing really to worry about at the moment. It's just a strange situation and one I hadn't hard of before. My colleagues rented the rooms separately and there were already other people renting two other rooms when they got there. The owner sleeps in the sitting room as there is no other rooms in the house. This apparently being going on for some years now and every time the owner mentions that he doesn't live in the house.

It doesn't mention the type of tenancy on the lease at all but the landlord has evicted someone at a days notice before on the grounds that the tenant is living in an owner occupied house. It's just something I'm curious about. Apparently the tenant was deservedly evicted but the lack of notice seems extreme.

the_syco · 25-08-2013 1:24am

steddyeddy wrote: »

My colleagues rented the rooms separately and there were already other people renting two other rooms when they got there.

So they can't really kick out the landlord, as they have no right to do so, IIRC.

steddyeddy wrote: »

The owner sleeps in the sitting room as there is no other rooms in the house. This apparently being going on for some years now and every time the owner mentions that he doesn't live in the house.

As he rents all the rooms out, I'll call bulls|t on the first point. And probably on the 2nd point also because of;

steddyeddy wrote: »

the landlord has evicted someone at a days notice before on the grounds that the tenant is living in an owner occupied house

I'm assuming your mates are staying there for college? Be careful about the landlord, and see what info your mates can dig up about the landlord, as the situation sounds very dodge!

ted1 · 25-08-2013 4:37pm

If he is not living in a bedroom as defined by the planning premisson I doubt he can claim he is living there.

I also suspect he is paying tax on the basis of renting a room. As he sounds like a dick I'd give revenue a call

steddyeddy · 25-08-2013 6:21pm

ted1 wrote: »

If he is not living in a bedroom as defined by the planning premisson I doubt he can claim he is living there.

I also suspect he is paying tax on the basis of renting a room. As he sounds like a dick I'd give revenue a call

As I say I'm not living there. I know he's not paying tax but I was just unsure how the law works in this regard. According to him he owns the house and in reality he lives in the lounge everyday and night. Although he pretends not to be too prospective tenants. It's just something I was interested in.

nomoreindie · 25-08-2013 6:36pm

He can earn €10,000 pa under rent a room taxfree. If he sleeps in the living room, do the housemates have to leave it a certain time each evening?

steddyeddy · 25-08-2013 7:30pm

nomoreindie wrote: »

He can earn €10,000 pa under rent a room taxfree. If he sleeps in the living room, do the housemates have to leave it a certain time each evening?

No but after they paid the deposit they were told no post (except family post) was allowed at the house. It's just a temporary arrangement for them I think!

the_syco · 25-08-2013 9:04pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

No but after they paid the deposit they were told no post (except family post) was allowed at the house.

I read this as; no proof that they ever lived there, so if he were to throw them out, it'd be their word against his that he ever lived there. Sounds almost like a long running scam, tbh. If they're going to college nearby, it may be in their interest contacting the student accommodation person to see if he's pulled any stunts before.

jjjd · 25-08-2013 9:16pm

nomoreindie wrote: »

He can earn €10,000 pa under rent a room taxfree.

If he earns a cent more than €10,000 then the entire amount of rental income becomes taxable at his marginal rate (potentially 41%) plus will have PRSI and USC to pay on top of this.

the_syco · 25-08-2013 9:23pm

steddyeddy; find out how much your mates are paying per week or month, multiply by 52 or 12, and then by the amount of rooms. If it goes over the €10k mark, tell your mates to keep it under their hat until they have to move, so they have some leverage.

And then report him regardless once they leave (with their full deposit) if they want... :pac:

athtrasna · 25-08-2013 9:26pm

the_syco wrote: »

steddyeddy; find out how much your mates are paying per week or month, multiply by 52 or 12, and then by the amount of rooms. If it goes over the €10k mark, tell your mates to keep it under their hat until they have to move, so they have some leverage.

And then report him regardless once they leave (with their full deposit) if they want... :pac:

The 10k includes payments for bills

steddyeddy · 25-08-2013 9:27pm

Yea did that syco he's making 18960

ABajaninCork · 25-08-2013 9:30pm

Oops! Your mates landlord would do well not to p1ss the occupants off then. Looks as though they might have him over a barrel if he plays up...

Are they getting receipts for the rent paid?

steddyeddy · 25-08-2013 9:45pm

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Oops! Your mates landlord would do well not to p1ss the occupants off then. Looks as though they might have him over a barrel if he plays up...

Are they getting receipts for the rent paid?

No they're not but they have mail sent to the house anyway but they put a redirect on it so it goes to their parents. They said he's grand and not giving them trouble it's just a strange situation. I never heard of a landlord pretending he didnt live in a house ha ha

ABajaninCork · 25-08-2013 9:48pm

Then I'd agree with the syco. Sounds too iffy for words. No receipts and the post re-directed? What's to say the LL doesn't hold on to the deposit too?

Not being funny, but I'd be looking to get out of Dodge. Fast, and preferably with my money intact!

steddyeddy · 25-08-2013 9:50pm

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Then I'd agree with the syco. Sounds too iffy for words. No receipts and the post re-directed? What's to say the LL doesn't hold on to the deposit too?

Not being funny, but I'd be looking to get out of Dodge. Fast, and preferably with my money intact!

I think they are unfortunately it's at the start of the college year and not great timing

ted1 · 25-08-2013 11:32pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

No they're not but they have mail sent to the house anyway but they put a redirect on it so it goes to their parents. They said he's grand and not giving them trouble it's just a strange situation. I never heard of a landlord pretending he didnt live in a house ha ha

He's not grand , he is living on their common area, he is reducing their amount if living space they have, increasing their bills and preventing them from rekaxing on the couch after a long day of study

the_syco · 26-08-2013 12:55am

ted1 wrote: »

preventing them from rekaxing on the couch after a long day of study

He'll also be there when the lads come back from the pub. Although it may seem grand now, give it a few weeks, and I dare say it'll be hell.

gaius c · 26-08-2013 2:12pm

Unbelievable how greedy some people are.
Definitely shop him.

steddyeddy · 26-08-2013 2:18pm

In fairness I can understand if someone is stuck for money why they do some things like that. Desperation can drive people aswell as greed. The problem affecting my mates is that they feel angry that they were lied to about the owner living there. In fairness though when being showed around what were they supposed to say "No really do you live here"!

handlemaster · 26-08-2013 2:19pm

revenue revenue revenue . to sort this tight ass out.

steddyeddy · 26-08-2013 2:23pm

I was more curious regarding tenant/landlord rights in this case. If someone moved into a house under the assumption that the landlord didn't live there and that proved not to be the case would tenant/landlord rights be affected?

afkasurfjunkie · 26-08-2013 2:28pm

If he is sleeping on the couch, where does he keeps his clothes and personal belongings? Does he keep his toiletries in the bathroom? does he shower there? where does he do his laundry? there are so many other issues involved in living in a place then just sleeping on a couch.

steddyeddy · 26-08-2013 2:30pm

afkasurfjunkie wrote: »

If he is sleeping on the couch, where does he keeps his clothes and personal belongings? Does he keep his toiletries in the bathroom? does he shower there? where does he do his laundry? there are so many other issues involved in living in a place then just sleeping on a couch.

I know. Most of all the lads feel they have no privacy. He keeps everything in the living room and doesnt move from the pc there from morning until night.

handlemaster · 26-08-2013 2:51pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I know. Most of all the lads feel they have no privacy. He keeps everything in the living room and doesnt move from the pc there from morning until night.

probably has peep cameras in their rooms and one in the shower

Kungfu · 26-08-2013 3:06pm

Your colleagues should seek expert advice on this matter. First they could go to the local Citizens Advice centre. Then contact Threshold. As already said it could be an act of trespass, which would be a matter for the Gardai and the Courts. In addition if the landlord is not playing according to the rules in this regard, then perhaps he is also not doing so in another regard ie the Revenue Commissioners. Is he declaring the income from rents in the house to the tax man? And one more point; if he has said that he is not residing at the premises and the rental agrrement doesn't mention him as residing there, then he is clearly in breach of contract and your colleagues could sue for that fact.

djimi · 26-08-2013 3:17pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I was more curious regarding tenant/landlord rights in this case. If someone moved into a house under the assumption that the landlord didn't live there and that proved not to be the case would tenant/landlord rights be affected?

If they can prove that they were lied to (lease, maybe the original ad etc) then they would probably have a good case for claiming that he is entering the property illegally.

To be honest the best thing that they can do is pack up and leave. In an owner occupier situation there is nothing to stop them walking out with a minutes notice, and honestly even if this guy didnt like it he would want to be a complete moron to start kicking up a fuss given the scam that he has going.

hardCopy · 26-08-2013 3:54pm

I don't think I'd even want to sit on the couch if he's sleeping on it every night.

djimi · 26-08-2013 5:19pm

hardCopy wrote: »

I don't think I'd even want to sit on the couch if he's sleeping on it every night.

Amen to that. I lived in a house in college for a (small) while where a fellow was moved in to sleep on the couch. Took about a week for the living room to smell awful.

Landlord lying about owner occupation

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