Advice on Feral Cats

pookiesboo

I am looking for your advice. For the past 7 or 8 months there has been a growing number of feral cats in the area where I live. I live in a row of terraced houses and behind our houses there is a local primary school.
Since building started on an extension to the school since the start of this year, there has been stray cats coming into our gardens, there must have been a colony of them in the area where building began. I have now counted about 20 cats young and younger in my back garden. Some of my neighbours and I felt sorry for the first couple at the start of the year and fed them but now they are breeding more and more and it is out of control.
I live on a busy street and am worried they will cause an accident to themselves or drivers because they have started crossing the road.
I contacted my local KSPCA but they said they cant help because they are stray cats and cant take in stray cats. They suggested I stopped feeding them, which I did but they started crying outside the kitchen windows and the back door so I and a few other neighbours started feeding them again.

I also contacted another well known animal charity (dont know if I can say their names) who have failed to respond to me despite me sending them emails and phoning them. Another welfare group said they could take the kittens a few months back, when I brought them down to their adoption day, it was discovered they had ringworm and they wouldnt take them. I have ended up buying antiobiotics, worm doses and flea treatments for cats that are not mine. They are quite tame (most of them) at this stage, well to me anyway because they are used to me.
I have also used the rehoming section on the boards thread a few months ago but to no avail.
I have three rescue cats myself (all neutered) so I cant take anymore in.
Can anybody offer me some advice.

kylith

See if you can get in touch with a group who will trap, neuter, and release the cats. It won't do anything for the immediate population but will stop them breeding. The only way to stop them hanging around is to stop feeding them. If they cry you just have to ignore them. They will not go away while they are getting food.

pookiesboo

kylith wrote: »

See if you can get in touch with a group who will trap, neuter, and release the cats. It won't do anything for the immediate population but will stop them breeding. The only way to stop them hanging around is to stop feeding them. If they cry you just have to ignore them. They will not go away while they are getting food.

I know I have to toughen up and stop feeding them but I feel so sorry for them! A couple of my neighbours feed them too. There are a lot of housing estates inmy area so they will only shift off to one of them and someone else will start feeding them (I cant be the only softie) so wont the problem keep going on?
As for the trap, neuter and release would I have to pay for that or who pays for it?

boomerang

If the caregiver stops feeding, won't the cats just go away? Answer


Why don't feeding bans work to eliminate feral cats? Answer


Feeding bans are an ineffective and cruel approach to feral cats. Why?


OP I suggest posting on the Feral Cats Ireland facebook page for suggestions, advice and support.

pookiesboo

boomerang wrote: »

If the caregiver stops feeding, won't the cats just go away? Answer


Why don't feeding bans work to eliminate feral cats? Answer


Feeding bans are an ineffective and cruel approach to feral cats. Why?


OP I suggest posting on the Feral Cats Ireland facebook page for suggestions, advice and support.

I've just gotten off the phone from another welfare group and hopefully I'll be able to get help from them!

loveisdivine

pookiesboo wrote: »

I know I have to toughen up and stop feeding them but I feel so sorry for them! A couple of my neighbours feed them too. There are a lot of housing estates inmy area so they will only shift off to one of them and someone else will start feeding them (I cant be the only softie) so wont the problem keep going on?
As for the trap, neuter and release would I have to pay for that or who pays for it?

Theres nothing 'tough' about letting hungry animals go without food. Its just cruel.
You're also not a softie, you are a caring resposible individual and kudos for what you are already doing for these cats.

I too recommend posting on the feral cats ireland facebook page. Getting them neutered would be the best possible thing for now.

pookiesboo

loveisdivine wrote: »

Theres nothing 'tough' about letting hungry animals go without food. Its just cruel.
You're also not a softie, you are a caring resposible individual and kudos for what you are already doing for these cats.

I too recommend posting on the feral cats ireland facebook page. Getting them neutered would be the best possible thing for now.

Thanks! We've been overrun with cats for months now so I'll put up with it, its just the neverending breeding that I want to put an end to. Keep ye posted!:)

mitosis

1 Stop feeding the cats - someone else will do it and they will move there.

2 Secure your perimeter. Either put something short and pointy along the tops of your walls, or plant thorny bushes along the walls.

3 Plant lavender - they hate the smell. Also sprinkle vinegar around the walls while everything else is establishing

4 Stop feeding the cats

boomerang

Mitosis, if you have a quick look at the links I posted, you'll see that "feed bans" don't work. Not only that, they're downright cruel. You wouldn't do it to a dog.

I've referred the OP to the Feral Cats Ireland page to get help and advice from people involved with feral cat care. Going on the responses so far I don't think she will find the right information here on A&P I.

Good on you pookiesboo, you're going about things the right way. I only wish I was nearer or I'd help more. Your only obstacle is going to be securing the money to neuter the cats, but it sounds like you have kind neighbours that wish the cats no harm and that means you are off to a great start. You will find the folk on the Feral Cats Ireland page very supportive and if you can outline the number of cats involved and take some photos of them to share on the page, the more people will take notice.

pookiesboo

mitosis wrote: »

1 Stop feeding the cats - someone else will do it and they will move there.

2 Secure your perimeter. Either put something short and pointy along the tops of your walls, or plant thorny bushes along the walls.

3 Plant lavender - they hate the smell. Also sprinkle vinegar around the walls while everything else is establishing

4 Stop feeding the cats

But then its someone elses problem and someone else will be feeding them or if not they will just starve to death or someone might come across them who isnt a 'cat lover' for want of a better way of putting it. I'm not ecstatic at the fact theres so many cats but I'd rather a more humane way of dealing with the problem. Thanks though.:)

pookiesboo

boomerang wrote: »

Mitosis, if you have a quick look at the links I posted, you'll see that "feed bans" don't work. Not only that, they're downright cruel. You wouldn't do it to a dog.

I've referred the OP to the Feral Cats Ireland page to get help and advice from people involved with feral cat care. Going on the responses so far I don't think she will find the right information here on A&P I.

Good on you pookiesboo, you're going about things the right way. I only wish I was nearer or I'd help more. Your only obstacle is going to be securing the money to neuter the cats, but it sounds like you have kind neighbours that wish the cats no harm and that means you are off to a great start. You will find the folk on the Feral Cats Ireland page very supportive and if you can outline the number of cats involved and take some photos of them to share on the page, the more people will take notice.

I cant let them starve, its not their fault they are in this predicament and hopefully I might get some sort of deal with a vet if I am to pay for them to get neutered. Thanks for your posts!

Scrag

Feral cats will fend for themselves if you stop feeding them . They thrive very well in feral colonies. A little bit of water tossed at them will chase them. It does not hurt them and they don't like a good soaking.

kylith

boomerang wrote: »

Mitosis, if you have a quick look at the links I posted, you'll see that "feed bans" don't work. Not only that, they're downright cruel. You wouldn't do it to a dog.

I've referred the OP to the Feral Cats Ireland page to get help and advice from people involved with feral cat care. Going on the responses so far I don't think she will find the right information here on A&P I.

Good on you pookiesboo, you're going about things the right way. I only wish I was nearer or I'd help more. Your only obstacle is going to be securing the money to neuter the cats, but it sounds like you have kind neighbours that wish the cats no harm and that means you are off to a great start. You will find the folk on the Feral Cats Ireland page very supportive and if you can outline the number of cats involved and take some photos of them to share on the page, the more people will take notice.

But the OP cannot be expected to feed and care for two dozen cats that aren't even hers in the first place. She has no responsibility to look after them, and no-one should expect her to shoulder the financial burden of it.

People on here are always talking about what good hunters cats are. Hunting is obviously what they were doing before the OP and her neighbours began feeding them, and that is what they will go back to doing if the free food dries up.

boomerang

I'm not going to make endless counter-arguments here about the survival skills of feral cats whose numbers have been supported by people feeding them and who are then left to fend for themselves. I haven't the heart or the energy at the moment and the information is out there for anyone curious enough to open the links I've posted. I also don't want to derail the thread.

I'm not suggesting the onus is on the OP to bear the cost of neutering them. She simply cares enough to want to help them, and I support her in that. Typically you are only talking about a handful of cats. Personally, I believe people that feed ferals and strays have a collective responsibility towards the cats, as they become dependent on them. That extends to providing appropriate veterinary care, including neutering. Groups such as ourselves can help with that. But look, if you want to open this up into a discussion on feral cats generally, let's do that in a separate thread.

mitosis

boomerang wrote: »

Mitosis, if you have a quick look at the links I posted, you'll see that "feed bans" don't work. Not only that, they're downright cruel. You wouldn't do it to a dog.

I've referred the OP to the Feral Cats Ireland page to get help and advice from people involved with feral cat care. Going on the responses so far I don't think she will find the right information here on A&P I.

Good on you pookiesboo, you're going about things the right way. I only wish I was nearer or I'd help more. Your only obstacle is going to be securing the money to neuter the cats, but it sounds like you have kind neighbours that wish the cats no harm and that means you are off to a great start. You will find the folk on the Feral Cats Ireland page very supportive and if you can outline the number of cats involved and take some photos of them to share on the page, the more people will take notice.

Others are feeding the cats, as stated in the OP. So they are not being starved, thus no cruelty.

mitosis

pookiesboo wrote: »

But then its someone elses problem and someone else will be feeding them or if not they will just starve to death or someone might come across them who isnt a 'cat lover' for want of a better way of putting it. I'm not ecstatic at the fact theres so many cats but I'd rather a more humane way of dealing with the problem. Thanks though.:)

OK, but why make it your problem? You already said other neighbours are feeding them, so you won't harm them if you stop.

boomerang

But that also means the strategy won't work. She will still have a rising number of unowned cats in her immediate neighbourhood that will suffer more and succumb to disease as there'll be less food to go around. The most humane and most effective answer here is to bite the bullet, get the help of a TNR group, health-check and neuter the existing cats so the population can't increase and the numbers will gradually fall through attrition. Meanwhile the kind-hearted folk who enjoy feeding the cats can continue to do so. The cats will put on more condition once neutered and will also stop caterwauling, spraying, fighting and other anti-social feline behaviours that give ferals a bad name.

mitosis

boomerang wrote: »

But that also means the strategy won't work. She will still have a rising number of unowned cats in her immediate neighbourhood that will suffer more and succumb to disease as there'll be less food to go around. The most humane and most effective answer here is to bite the bullet, get the help of a TNR group, health-check and neuter the existing cats so the population can't increase and the numbers will gradually fall through attrition. Meanwhile the kind-hearted folk who enjoy feeding the cats can continue to do so. The cats will put on more condition once neutered and will also stop caterwauling, spraying, fighting and other anti-social feline behaviours that give ferals a bad name.

This bit I take small issue with. Why would the numbers fall? The argument against removing them altogether is that other cats will move in to replace them up to what the area can sustain. The same will happen if they are lost through "Attrition"

Tranceypoo

The numbers will fall because there will be no more breeding because they've been neutered and spayed, if they're not the numbers will increase, increase and increase.

Agree with Boomerang on this one, OP I'm helping a friend out with a feral cat issue at the moment and Feral Cats Ireland and the Cat Rescue group for our County have been very helpful, I am making a donation (all I can afford) but it won't cover the vets costs, my understanding is they won't expect you to pay the full amount of 5/10/20 cats being spayed or neutered (unless you can afford it of course, but most people couldn't), they will work with you and help and if you can make a donation that would be great.

kylith

Tranceypoo wrote: »

The numbers will fall because there will be no more breeding because they've been neutered and spayed, if they're not the numbers will increase, increase and increase.

But I've heard it said that if you trap and euthanise feral cats en mass that other cats will just move in. What's to stop other cats from moving in when the current colony begins to die off?

Tranceypoo

kylith wrote: »

But I've heard it said that if you trap and euthanise feral cats en mass that other cats will just move in. What's to stop other cats from moving in when the current colony begins to die off?

They don't trap and euthanise, they trap, neuter(or spay) and release them back to where they were

kylith

Yes, I know that. I am specifically talking about previous conversations on this forum where people have argued for and against the euthanisation of feral cats.

If the argument is that T&E (trapping & euthenasia) means that new cats will move in to a vacated area, and that this is a reason why T&E is not a feasible means of control, why would new cats not move in to an area where the TNR cats have begun to die from regular feral causes of death (disease, predation, RTA)?

pookiesboo

Thanks for all yer replies. I dont have the money to neuter them all myself (far from it) but could contribute towards each cat. The problem with "stop feeding them and the neighbours will" is that we a are a row of terraced houses and they go through each back garden on the wall along the back of our houses or else just through the hedges, they really have the run of the place.
Also the fact that we have been feeding them for a while is that most of them have become quite tame and could be rehomed but no one is interested in fully grown cats.
I'm having the same argument with my fiance at home over it that ye are having, he says that its not up to us to be feeding them or neutering them but I'm kind of the mindset that it will keep going on and on until they are spayed. Im waiting for a Feral Cats Ireland to get back to me (thanks for giving me their info btw!) and also a local welfare group that said they will try to help me, i'm not sure if that means financially or what. Thanks for all the advice!:)

boomerang

kylith wrote: »

Yes, I know that. I am specifically talking about previous conversations on this forum where people have argued for and against the euthanisation of feral cats.

If the argument is that T&E (trapping & euthenasia) means that new cats will move in to a vacated area, and that this is a reason why T&E is not a feasible means of control, why would new cats not move in to an area where the TNR cats have begun to die from regular feral causes of death (disease, predation, RTA)?

Once feral cats are neutered and basic provisions for their needs are met, they have the same expected lifespan of any owned, pet cat that has access to the outdoors. We look after neutered colonies that have been in existence for ten or twelve years and the 'foundation' cats are in their teens. The attrition rate is very, very gradual, and in the meantime, the existence of a stable colony acts as a deterrent against other strays or ferals moving into the immediate area.

I've learned from experience that once you start taking a lot of individuals out of the colony to relocate them elsewhere (or have them put down) it totally disrupts the social order within the group and that is when you have opportunistic lone individuals (un-neutered feral toms whose range encompasses the colony's territory, or stray cats that are ranging across multiple territories because they are chased away) coming in and adding to the problem.

But really, I'm tired of advocating TNR to folks who really are just spectactors and don't care too much about the issue on a welfare basis. It's been done to death in other threads, no need to resurrect the debate here, where the OP is looking for practical advice.

anniehoo

boomerang wrote: »

But really, I'm tired of advocating TNR to folks who really are just spectactors and don't care too much about the issue on a welfare basis. It's been done to death in other threads, no need to resurrect the debate here, where the OP is looking for practical advice.

Don't get tired Boomerang. I for one have learned A LOT from your links above today (and in numerous threads).If I am learning, you can GUARANTEE you can multiply that by a hundred or more other people who are either just browsing, lurking or semi posting.

NEVER get tired of advocating for what you believe in, seriously.You may not get feedback or feel like you're banging your head off a brick wall, but I for one appreciate your posts and info.

It does get seriously repetitive and you almost bore yourself to death, in real life and on Boards telling people the same thing over and over and OVER AGAIN *yaaaaawn*.

BUT....what you have said and constantly post...MAKES SENSE!!!If one single person looks at your link, randomly googles TNR (Trap Neuter Release for the first person reading this that doesn't know what it means), then you have done a good feckin job.

Quit your moanin will ya :pac::pac:

ferretone

Ah now, please go easy on Boomerang just now: she is going through a really rough time! Which is why I feel I need to put my neck out in her place for a a wee bit now. Obviously I don't have her knowledge or experience, but can field a few criticisms that are being levelled at her tried-and-proved approach.

There is simply no better way to keep the feral (preferred term: ex:domestic) cat population in an area under control than by setting up a properly-managed colony, the beginning of which is the TNR program.

Almost invariably at the start there have been too many kittens produced, so some of these, following testing, need to be well-tamed and rehomed as family pets. These "kittens" may not all be still of conventionally accepted taming age: I myself have a cuddly wee princess who was passed on in this way at over a year!

However, it is vitally important that enough cats are returned after neutering to make the colony viable. The heroine who took the massive colony our girly came from under her wing, did crazy amounts of fundraising, spent all her evenings working so hard with the traps, brought the whole thing into beautiful control, left people feeding and observing, only to realise 2 years later, that she had been overly conservative with the numbers she had left, and other cats had moved in and were once again breeding :eek: And the national economy had collapsed, so she had no hopes of doing the whole thing over. I offered donations, but she told me I was among very few, where there were hundreds the first time round.

But she was completely sure it was a miscalculation, and so much more difficult to get that right in such a huge colony, plus in a smaller one it would be so much easier to readjust if necessary.

And as regards sustaining the numbers in a properly-managed colony, well there are always so many ex-domestic cats that, once neutered, can be released into a different area, I can't see that the repopulation needs to be left to chance either.

loveisdivine

I really don't understand the "its not my responsibility" argument. Like someone else has already pointed out, most people wouldn't say that about a dog!

People whinge and moan about feral cats but they are willing to do dick all about it! I suppose they just expect someone else to come in and "take care" of the problem. Quite frankly, its ignorant to the extreme.

People need to remember that its humans and humans alone that have caused this issue in the first place.

mitosis

boomerang wrote: »

Once feral cats are neutered and basic provisions for their needs are met, they have the same expected lifespan of any owned, pet cat that has access to the outdoors. We look after neutered colonies that have been in existence for ten or twelve years and the 'foundation' cats are in their teens. The attrition rate is very, very gradual, and in the meantime, the existence of a stable colony acts as a deterrent against other strays or ferals moving into the immediate area.

I've learned from experience that once you start taking a lot of individuals out of the colony to relocate them elsewhere (or have them put down) it totally disrupts the social order within the group and that is when you have opportunistic lone individuals (un-neutered feral toms whose range encompasses the colony's territory, or stray cats that are ranging across multiple territories because they are chased away) coming in and adding to the problem.

But really, I'm tired of advocating TNR to folks who really are just spectactors and don't care too much about the issue on a welfare basis. It's been done to death in other threads, no need to resurrect the debate here, where the OP is looking for practical advice.

So the actual fact of the matter is that the OP and partner and neighbours et al will see no reduction in cat numbers via TNR. She has 20 cats in her back garden for Pete's sake, and this is OK? I'm not sure how practical 'get used to it, and get used to paying for them' is.

boomerang

I don't think doing nothing is an option, here. Waiting for someone else to pick up the tab is pointless. The local council won't help. The dog warden won't deal with it. There is no public money for stray or feral cats and a private pest control company will charge in the region of €100 to trap, kill and dispose of each cat.

So responsibility falls to people like the OP, who are kind enough to take it on. But you know what? It's really not bleak. I'm in the middle of a project on an estate where we were called in by the residents' association. We attended a meeting with them and explained what we do. They agreed to pay half the cost of neutering the cats and we fundraised the rest. (We do this regularly for cases where there are a lot of cats and the people feeding them genuinely can't meet the full cost of the TNR.) We have our own equipment, volunteered our time for free and did all the donkey work to and from the vets. The cats stayed over in my house to recover and were returned having been fully health-checked. They are fed and have shelter.

The back-up is there for people who want to be proactive. Unfortunately in this case, when they first contacted us they balked at having to contribute to the cost. They let it go and when they rang us again it was because three litters of kittens had been born.

mitosis

Am I right in saying they are classified as vermin in law?

Pumpkinseeds

I don't know why, but there has always been a very peculiar attitude in Ireland towards cats, strays and ferals in particular. There are so many people out there who still have the 'sure let them starve' attitude that makes me sick to my stomach. They are the same sort of people, in my opinion, who feel no pity when they see a starving or sick stray and will just turn a blind eye to a suffering cat, but show them a neglected dog and they'd almost call for the death penalty for the culprit.

I have the utmost respect and admiration for the work done by Boomerang, and people like her with ferals and strays. Until recent years there have been very few people trying to do anything for the ferals. I have a former feral and he is a wonderful cat. All 3 of our cats were strays that nobody wanted and would have starved if they hadn't found us.

I'm disgusted by people who perpetuate the attitude of 'starve em and they'll move on'. To be honest people, I pity those of you with that attitude and I sincerely hope that you don't pass it on to your offspring. Whatever about your pitiless personal opinion about homeless cats, but it's disgusting to be trying to use that bizarre attitude to undermine the wonderful work done by those trying to make life better for vulnerable cats.

boomerang

mitosis wrote: »

Am I right in saying they are classified as vermin in law?

No.

Domesticated animals including cats are given explicit protection under Irish law, whereas feral cats "'living in a wild state" are not. It's still illegal to deliberately cause them to suffer, however. It's not that they are classified as vermin, but rather they don't fit into any neat category. To be classified as vermin, there would have to be legal guidelines dictating who/how/when they can be culled - and there aren't any such guidelines, as there are for wild species.

The problem here is that you cannot divide the feline population into two, well delineated camps, domesticated and feral. It's a behavioural continuum, and most cats considered feral are actually just semi-ferals, well used to people and trusting to a degree, but who won't allow any physical contact. These cats typically do have people that feed them and loosely own them. Cat ownership is a fairly nebulous affair in this country anyways! And many of these cats can and do tame over time, especially once neutered. Then we have pet cats who are very skittish and nervous by nature, who can easily be mistaken for semi-ferals.

True feral cats are actually in a very small minority, and very rarely seen, as they totally eschew all human contact.

kylith

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I don't know why, but there has always been a very peculiar attitude in Ireland towards cats, strays and ferals in particular. There are so many people out there who still have the 'sure let them starve' attitude that makes me sick to my stomach. They are the same sort of people, in my opinion, who feel no pity when they see a starving or sick stray and will just turn a blind eye to a suffering cat, but show them a neglected dog and they'd almost call for the death penalty for the culprit.

But on the other hand; people who own cats will let them roam, annoying other people in their neighbourhood, and exposing the cats to risk of death by disease, predation, fighting with other cats, or being hit by a car, but if a dog was treated that way by the people who owned it these same people would be up in arms. Basically, if a cat's owners do not appear to take any responsibility for their cat, by exposing it to the above mentioned risks, then why is should it be the responsibility of the public to care for it? How many of the cats in these colonies used to be someone's pet that just didn't come home one day? How many threads do we see on here of people's cats going missing and everyone says 'Oh, he'll be back eventually' and 'He's probably just moved in with someone else'. How is that an acceptable attitude to have toward an animal that you're supposed to be responsible for?

I have the utmost respect and admiration for the work done by Boomerang, and people like her with ferals and strays. Until recent years there have been very few people trying to do anything for the ferals. I have a former feral and he is a wonderful cat. All 3 of our cats were strays that nobody wanted and would have starved if they hadn't found us.

I too would respect people who help straying animals, but I believe that a fundamental change in the attitude of many cat owners is needed before we can see any change in the number of ferals in this country. Not neutering your cat is irresponsible. Allowing your pet cat to roam is irresponsible. Allowing your unneutered pet cat to roam is beyond irresponsible.

I'm disgusted by people who perpetuate the attitude of 'starve em and they'll move on'. To be honest people, I pity those of you with that attitude and I sincerely hope that you don't pass it on to your offspring. Whatever about your pitiless personal opinion about homeless cats, but it's disgusting to be trying to use that bizarre attitude to undermine the wonderful work done by those trying to make life better for vulnerable cats.

Do you take the same attitude to all animals that you do to these cats? Would a person have a responsibility to feed a colony of foxes near their home? A badger sett? Like it or not feral cats are not pets; they are wild or turned wild, they are predators, they are invasive, they are not part of the Irish eco-system and they contribute to the decline of Irish wildlife.

You spoke about dogs earlier? If you found a colony of terriers living rough would you be of the opinion that they should be TNR and left living on a bit of scrub ground? Do you think that the local people would have a responsibility to feed them? Or do you think they should be trapped, any suitable for rehoming rehomed, and any not suitable euthanised?

These are not the OP's cats. She fed them out of the goodness of her heart and has had to pay for medication, food and vet care for animals that aren't hers. Chances are she cannot afford to pay for food and care for two dozen cats for the foreseeable future. These cats are NOT her responsibility, nor should she be made to feel guilty for not wanting to accept an ongoing financial burden that she didn't want in the first place. She is under no obligation to keep feeding them if she doesn't want to.

muddypaws

kylith wrote: »

These are not the OP's cats. She fed them out of the goodness of her heart and has had to pay for medication, food and vet care for animals that aren't hers. Chances are she cannot afford to pay for food and care for two dozen cats for the foreseeable future. These cats are NOT her responsibility, nor should she be made to feel guilty for not wanting to accept an ongoing financial burden that she didn't want in the first place. She is under no obligation to keep feeding them if she doesn't want to.

Neither are they Boomerang's cats, nor is it her fault or responsiblity. I can't see where people have tried to make the op feel guilty, all I see is the op trying to do the best they can, with support being offered, support from someone who hasn't ever strayed a cat of her own, yet works bloody hard to help animals in need. Really don't understand the negative attitude to Boomerang on this thread, in fact I'd go so far as to say bullying attitude.

kylith

muddypaws wrote: »

Neither are they Boomerang's cats, nor is it her fault or responsiblity. I can't see where people have tried to make the op feel guilty, all I see is the op trying to do the best they can, with support being offered, support from someone who hasn't ever strayed a cat of her own, yet works bloody hard to help animals in need. Really don't understand the negative attitude to Boomerang on this thread, in fact I'd go so far as to say bullying attitude.

What attitude to Boomerang? It was your post I replied to. A post in which you stated that the 'starve them and they'll move on' attitude was disgusting.

Firstly, no-one suggested starving them, but not continuing to feed them, there is a difference. These cats have apparently been doing fine without human feeding for some years.

Saying that not feeding the cats so they'll move on is disgusting is attempting to guilt the OP into continuing to provide food and veterinary care that she has said she cannot afford. She should feel no obligation to provide anything which is beyond her means, or which she is unwilling to, nor should she feel obliged to have dozens of feral cats hanging around her house especially with the risk of disease or injury which that may pose to her own cats.

muddypaws

kylith wrote: »

What attitude to Boomerang? It was your post I replied to. A post in which you stated that the 'starve them and they'll move on' attitude was disgusting.

Firstly, no-one suggested starving them, but not continuing to feed them, there is a difference. These cats have apparently been doing fine without human feeding for some years.

Saying that not feeding the cats so they'll move on is disgusting is attempting to guilt the OP into continuing to provide food and veterinary care that she has said she cannot afford. She should feel no obligation to provide anything which is beyond her means, or which she is unwilling to, nor should she feel obliged to have dozens of feral cats hanging around her house especially with the risk of disease or injury which that may pose to her own cats.

I think you need to go back and check who you're replying to

boomerang

kylith wrote: »

Do you take the same attitude to all animals that you do to these cats? Would a person have a responsibility to feed a colony of foxes near their home? A badger sett? Like it or not feral cats are not pets; they are wild or turned wild, they are predators, they are invasive, they are not part of the Irish eco-system and they contribute to the decline of Irish wildlife.

You spoke about dogs earlier? If you found a colony of terriers living rough would you be of the opinion that they should be TNR and left living on a bit of scrub ground? Do you think that the local people would have a responsibility to feed them? Or do you think they should be trapped, any suitable for rehoming rehomed, and any not suitable euthanised?

These are not the OP's cats. She fed them out of the goodness of her heart and has had to pay for medication, food and vet care for animals that aren't hers. Chances are she cannot afford to pay for food and care for two dozen cats for the foreseeable future. These cats are NOT her responsibility, nor should she be made to feel guilty for not wanting to accept an ongoing financial burden that she didn't want in the first place. She is under no obligation to keep feeding them if she doesn't want to.

Kylith what do you suggest she do, then, to improve her situation? Realistically?

You raise so many points that I'd like to address but I just don't have the heart or the energy to have that detailed a debate right now. It's been done to death in previous threads anyways, and you've held to your own beliefs and opinions throughout. Personally I don't believe we're all entitled to our own opinion, unless it's an informed opinion. And without wanting to cause you any offence, honestly, when I read your posts on the subject, it's clear to me while you have an understanding of the broad issues surrounding true feral cats, you don't really have a handle on how these semi-feral cats behave, interact or what human support they need to survive.

True feral cats are self-sufficient and have reverted to a wild state. There are also very few of them about - I think I've met less than half a dozen.

The kind of cats the OP is dealing with are typical of the majority - loosely owned, semi-tame. They don't survive without a food source. If neutered, fed and provided with basic shelter, they live extremely well.

I feel this is only a theoretical debate for you and you don't feel any compassion for these animals. I suggest we don't waste anymore of each other's time.

mitosis

boomerang wrote: »

Kylith what do you suggest she do, then, to improve her situation? Realistically?

You raise so many points that I'd like to address but I just don't have the heart or the energy to have that detailed a debate right now. It's been done to death in previous threads anyways, and you've held to your own beliefs and opinions throughout. Personally I don't believe we're all entitled to our own opinion, unless it's an informed opinion. And without wanting to cause you any offence, honestly, when I read your posts on the subject, it's clear to me while you have an understanding of the broad issues surrounding true feral cats, you don't really have a handle on how these semi-feral cats behave, interact or what human support they need to survive.

True feral cats are self-sufficient and have reverted to a wild state. There are also very few of them about - I think I've met less than half a dozen.

The kind of cats the OP is dealing with are typical of the majority - loosely owned, semi-tame. They don't survive without a food source. If neutered, fed and provided with basic shelter, they live extremely well.

I feel this is only a theoretical debate for you and you don't feel any compassion for these animals. I suggest we don't waste anymore of each other's time.

Not feral then. OK, but should we then be catching and neutering other people's pets, however "loosely owned" without finding and asking them first. If someone caught and neutered an animal of mine they'd be seeing a judge.

boomerang

Of course not. Any group such as ourselves if alerted about a problem in an area will go door to door first and speak to everyone to get a handle on the number of cats, their colouring, approximate age etc., who feeds them, and where. Usually we're called in by the people who feed the cats, so they know them intimately and can point them out to us individually. We don't just go in and set traps willy-nilly.

If it's a large-scale project with a nebulous number of cats we alert everyone in the neighbourhood to what we're doing and leaflet the night before to say the times we'll have the traps set in the morning and to keep pet cats indoors til we're done. For one thing, we don't want to waste precious funds on neutering a cat that was only out for his morning constitutional and is already neutered! Tame cats typically react very differently in the trap so on top of all the other precautions we take, they're actually pretty easy for us to spot.

kylith

muddypaws wrote: »

I think you need to go back and check who you're replying to

Sorry, not you, Pumpkinseeds.

boomerang wrote: »

Kylith what do you suggest she do, then, to improve her situation? Realistically?

I don't know, but if she doesn't want the cats around her house feeding them isn't going to help her

You raise so many points that I'd like to address but I just don't have the heart or the energy to have that detailed a debate right now. It's been done to death in previous threads anyways, and you've held to your own beliefs and opinions throughout. Personally I don't believe we're all entitled to our own opinion, unless it's an informed opinion. And without wanting to cause you any offence, honestly, when I read your posts on the subject, it's clear to me while you have an understanding of the broad issues surrounding true feral cats, you don't really have a handle on how these semi-feral cats behave, interact or what human support they need to survive.

True feral cats are self-sufficient and have reverted to a wild state. There are also very few of them about - I think I've met less than half a dozen.

That's fair enough, my knowledge of the difference between feral and semi feral is limited.

The kind of cats the OP is dealing with are typical of the majority - loosely owned, semi-tame. They don't survive without a food source. If neutered, fed and provided with basic shelter, they live extremely well.

In the OP's op she said that they'd been feeding them since the start of the year, when the cats were displaced by building work. This would lead me to believe that these cats would not have been being fed before then. The younger ones may be semi-tame, but the older ones may not be.

I feel this is only a theoretical debate for you and you don't feel any compassion for these animals. I suggest we don't waste anymore of each other's time.

Of course I feel compassion for the animals, but I can also empathise with someone who started off feeding a small number of cats and is now overwhelmed by the numbers. And I don't feel that people suggesting that it is now her responsibility to keep caring for these cats is fair to her.

Pumpkinseeds

kylith wrote: »

But on the other hand; people who own cats will let them roam, annoying other people in their neighbourhood, and exposing the cats to risk of death by disease, predation, fighting with other cats, or being hit by a car, but if a dog was treated that way by the people who owned it these same people would be up in arms. Basically, if a cat's owners do not appear to take any responsibility for their cat, by exposing it to the above mentioned risks, then why is should it be the responsibility of the public to care for it? How many of the cats in these colonies used to be someone's pet that just didn't come home one day? How many threads do we see on here of people's cats going missing and everyone says 'Oh, he'll be back eventually' and 'He's probably just moved in with someone else'. How is that an acceptable attitude to have toward an animal that you're supposed to be responsible for?


I too would respect people who help straying animals, but I believe that a fundamental change in the attitude of many cat owners is needed before we can see any change in the number of ferals in this country. Not neutering your cat is irresponsible. Allowing your pet cat to roam is irresponsible. Allowing your unneutered pet cat to roam is beyond irresponsible.



Do you take the same attitude to all animals that you do to these cats? Would a person have a responsibility to feed a colony of foxes near their home? A badger sett? Like it or not feral cats are not pets; they are wild or turned wild, they are predators, they are invasive, they are not part of the Irish eco-system and they contribute to the decline of Irish wildlife.

You spoke about dogs earlier? If you found a colony of terriers living rough would you be of the opinion that they should be TNR and left living on a bit of scrub ground? Do you think that the local people would have a responsibility to feed them? Or do you think they should be trapped, any suitable for rehoming rehomed, and any not suitable euthanised?

These are not the OP's cats. She fed them out of the goodness of her heart and has had to pay for medication, food and vet care for animals that aren't hers. Chances are she cannot afford to pay for food and care for two dozen cats for the foreseeable future. These cats are NOT her responsibility, nor should she be made to feel guilty for not wanting to accept an ongoing financial burden that she didn't want in the first place. She is under no obligation to keep feeding them if she doesn't want to.

There is a vast difference in a roaming pack of dogs and a colony of feral cats, as for the badger reference, I think you're stretching things a bit now Kylith. The OP wants to help the cats as do many people who have strays or ferals in their neighbourhood. Dogs enjoy protection under the Animal Welfare legislation that cats do not, and feral cats do not pose the kinds of risk that dogs do.

My cats are litter trained, insured, vaccinated and neutered, they are allowed to go outdoors, as that is their nature and this is not a pro or anti thread on allowing cats outdoors, so lets not derail it. I really don't understand your attitude of thinking 'lets just kill or allow all stray cats or feral cats to starve or die painfully'. Where exactly do you think that vulnerable cats/kittens go when people stop feeding them?

They slowly starve, often their eyes rot in their heads and they have long, slow agonisinly painful deaths. The government has no interest in helping them and people like you don't give a damn either, so it's people who are kind hearted that make the difference between survival or death, so what's your problem with allowing people to help?, because clearly you do have an issue with cats and you seem to think the best solution is to either starve them to death or kill them for being an inconvenience.

This argument has been done to death, there are people who love animals and would give their last cent to help them and then there are people who have entirely the opposite view. The OP just wanted some practical advice and you seem to be using the thread for your own anti-cat agenda.

kylith

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

This argument has been done to death, there are people who love animals and would give their last cent to help them and then there are people who have entirely the opposite view. The OP just wanted some practical advice and you seem to be using the thread for your own anti-cat agenda.

The anti cat agenda where I want all cats safe and sound in their owners' houses and gardens instead of roaming the neighbourhood risking getting run over, catching all kinds of diseases, being the target of psychopaths, and getting lost and winding up a feral colony?

Yeah, I really hate cats :rolleyes:

Pumpkinseeds

kylith wrote: »

The anti cat agenda where I want all cats safe and sound in their owners' houses and gardens instead of roaming the neighbourhood risking getting run over, catching all kinds of diseases, being the target of psychopaths, and getting lost and winding up a feral colony?

Yeah, I really hate cats :rolleyes:

Yeah it's just the ones that don't have owners that you seem to have an issue with.

kylith

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Yeah it's just the ones that don't have owners that you seem to have an issue with.

I feel sorry for them, but I still think it is unfair for people to attempt to guilt the OP into looking after dozens of cats that don't belong to her if she doesn't have the money or the desire to do so. She has a right to not want them on her property, and continuing to feed them is not going to fix that. TNR is not going to fix that. The only workable solutions that I can see for her problem are either relocation, euthanasia, or removing the food source and waiting for them to move on. None are ideal, especially euthanasia, but, unless you have any suggestions for the OP on how she can deal with the problem of dozens of cats which require food and veterinary attention, removing the food source is probably the best option.

Ideally there would be no feral cats. The only way to accomplish this is for people who own cats to take more responsibility for their pets and then, in conjunction with TNR schemes, the number of feral cats can be reduced to the point of negligibility.

boomerang

Relocation: Moving the cats would take time, as farm homes would have to be found. There mightn't be a group local to her as active as ourselves that would help with that. Logistically, it's difficult as temporary pens/enclosures are needed for the cats at the new location unless there is a shed or out-building that's escape-proof. So only a few cats can be moved at a time. We have four enclosures that we had custom-made and move the cats in groups of three, four or five. The problem with relocating such a large group of cats is that while you are slowly relocating them as farm homes become available, you're upsetting the social order in the colony and that is when newcomers will encroach. That has been my personal experience where we were forced into a corner by an organisation where the cats had lived peacefully on the grounds for ten years. There was a zero increase in cat numbers for three years after we neutered the colony, but since we have moved most of the cats, there's been an influx of new ones, not-neutered. We fundraised to TNR the original colony of sixteen cats. Now the organisation is quickly heading back to square one. There is a food ban in place but it is impossible to enforce, with so many employees. People who feed cats have a deep emotional attachment and it's hard enough to get people not to feed the cats the day before trapping, never mind permanently!

Of course the cats should only be relocated once neutered. Mother cats and kittens can't be moved until such time as the kittens are old enough to neuter, and - again, in my experience - farm homes are not safe for very young animals.

Euthanasia: It would be difficult to find both a rescue group and a vet that were willing to loan their equipment for this purpose and participate in the process. The vet cost of euthanising and disposing of each cat would come in at around the same cost of having them neutered. If relying on a pest control company, the cost would be double that of neutering.

Removing the food source: A quick look at the links I posted earlier on thread will confirm it's not going to work and will cause suffering to the cats.

I'm not trying to guilt the OP into helping these cats. She's a cat lover herself and wants to solve the problem. If no one takes responsibility, well, then the situation is just going to escalate and my own experience, in a lot a cases that means people will get fed up of the nuisances un-neutered ferals cause, and will take matters into their own hands, usually by leaving out poison, which is dangerous, cruel and illegal.

The OP is not alone here either financially or logistically - she has neighbours that are also caring towards the cats. And she has rescues local to her that have shown a willingness to help. Hell, if she was in my neck of the woods we'd have the ball already rolling.

Did you know that all animal welfare organisations in receipt of the annual ex-gratia payment from the Department of Agriculture are required to spend a portion of that funding on TNR?

loveisdivine

Saying "dont feed them and they will move on" is essentially the same as saying starve them to death.
Because then they move on to somewhere else and you tell that person to not feed them and they will move on, then you tell the next person the same thing.

That "solution" is a never ending circle of waiting for cats to move on to somewhere else where they wont be fed, meaning they basically move around looking for food slowly becoming malnourished and eventually dying, either through starvation itself or through some horrible disease they have caught because they are so weak from malnourishment.

Personally I do not favour a mass cull. I strongly oppose the idea that we can fix our problems by just killing things.

Cats may not be native to Ireland but, yet again, its humans that brought them here. Procrastinating over the fact they are not native is entirely useless.

boomerang

The problem is, they don't move on. I can't emphasise enough how such cats are bonded to their territory. And usually we find there is more than one person feeding the cats, so they stay in the immediate area, but now because they have less to eat, they get thin, they get sick and they really start to bother people, because they come closer into people's homes because they are desperate.

It's a problem we have in our town, when the university's student residences close over the summer. A lot of kind-hearted students leave out food for the cats during term-time, and then the cats are left to fend for themselves over the summer. The cats stay around, but they get really thin and malnourished and the kittens die. It's actually the same in a lot of resorts in Spain, Portugal, Greece etc. We'll be doing some publicity in the college in September and over the last twelve months we've begun to get the colonies in the area neutered and have relocated smaller colonies that didn't have someone local to support them year-round.

The same happened in the place I already mentioned where we've had to move a lot of cats. The staff member who always fed them went out on sick-leave and management had a change of tune and directed staff not to feed the cats. The cats stayed put and within three months (which is when we were alerted) the cats had all gotten very thin and fluey. The beautiful long-haired cats lost all their coat to malnutrition. We had to negotiate with management to allow us to step in and feed the cats routinely until they were well enough to be relocated.

snoman

The op has asked for advice and has received it from a variety of viewpoints. I'm sure they are more than capable of making their own mind up about what course of action to take...

deandean

I had a problem with feral cats in my back garden until we got a dog.

The cats never come into my garden now. I see them walking along the back wall but they stay out.

OldNotWIse

feed bans? wtf? How cruel is that! We have a feral "pet" that we trapped and re-released, she comes for food once a day and otherwise leaves us alone. TNR is definitely the way to go and there are charities willing to do this, they even tag the ears so people know they've been done. Cats will breed indiscriminately unless they are neutered. Its not fair on them either!

Edit: sorry should have said "trapped, neutered and released" - trapping and releasing alone will not help lol