Greens: Dublin needs a second unified bus station now

monument

Green Party press release:

Dublin needs a second unified bus station now

To stop Dublin streets being used as a bus park for private coaches.....

The Green Party calls for the opening up of Busaras to all buses and for a second unified bus station to be provided on the Western approaches to the city centre.

Freen Party Spokesperson on Transport and Tourism Tom Kivlehan said today, "Busaras needs to be opened to private operators and a second station needs to be established near Heuston Station to take all intercity bus traffic coming in from the West and South West. It makes no sense to send all Bus Eireann services to the one congested location in Busaras. Nor does it make sense to force private bus companies to dump their passengers on the side of the street, causing problems for both the passengers and for other road users. This ineffective use of resources is not necessary and it needs to stop now."

"The Dublin Bus garage on Conyngham Road would be a perfect location for a new station. With a new footbridge across the Liffey it would only be a two minutes walk from Heuston Station and the Luas Red line services. The Dublin Bus fleet could be switched over to the underutilized Bus Eireann depot at Broadstone and the changeover could be carried out quickly with minimal cost and disruption. It would take traffic off the Quays and would stop some of our most beautiful Georgian squares been used as bus parks."

"There is no reason why the same sharing of bus stations could not also take place in Cork, Limerick and Galway where the current rivalry between Bus Eireann and the private operators leads to a similar chaotic situation to what is happening in Dublin. Putting the public and private services in the same station would improve both collaboration and competition between the different services and would be good for the consumer."

"The recent NTA plan for Transport in Dublin was strangely silent on the need for a radical overhaul of the long distance bus services in and out of the city. Opening up a second station and putting all operators together under the one roof should be the first and cheapest step in the radical shake up of public transport that we need."

monument

Some good principals but Conyngham Road is the wrong location for an intercity bus station.

Even Broadstone with Luas would be better!

bk

monument wrote: »

Nor does it make sense to force private bus companies to dump their passengers on the side of the street, causing problems for both the passengers and for other road users.

Except that is exactly where passengers want to be left off/dumped.

One of the big advantages for the private bus companies over Irish Rail is them operating out of the much more central location of close to O'Connell Street right next to the majority of Dublin Bus services.

Hueston is too far out and most people don't want the extra expensive and time wasting of switching to Luas.

This also ignores the fact that all these coaches would still continue along the quays anyway as they head to the airport.

It also ignores the fact that most private coach companies will already let you off at Hueston if you ask.

ballooba

What's the story with the vacant CIE site at Abbey St Luas stop? Between Abbey St and Strand St.

Links:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=304886
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056927232&page=3
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2798346&postcount=2
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2838844&postcount=8
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65682772&postcount=4

Cool Mo D

Passengers want to go to the city centre but the city streets being used for drop off are totally unsuitable. The amount of congestion from tourist and passenger coaches around Nassau street, Kildare Street, Westmoreland Street and the quays is ridiculous. Having coaches stopping for long periods on busy through streets is a crazy use of scarce street space. Invariably the coaches are parked in some of the busiest bus lanes in the city too.

Busaras is too small, there needs to be a new coach terminal for coach parking. Heuston is far out, but either the waste ground around Tara street or near Jervis luas stops would be perfect. And ideally private and Bus Eireann coaches would share the same stations

devnull

Heuston is too far out for such an idea.

The amount all buses stop in the city center needs to be sorted out as well, that would really help some of the most crowded stops, as would better distribution of services to multiple stops next to each other.

The biggest pinch points are Suffolk Street and Westmoreland Street, but you have the crazy situation where some services will stop at Both, or you have others that stop outside Londis on the corner of College Green / Dame Street and then again on Westmoreland Street.

If you stopped all vehicles at one of these stops, it would already make a good difference.

Amirani

Demolish Hawkins House and Apollo House and build a new bus station. Kill 2 birds with one stone - great location and remove the ugliest building in central Dublin. Both these images are the same scale:


Busaras:


Potential New Station Site:

TheBandicoot

The Green party is still around? Who cares what they say, they don't have a single person in the Oireachteas so the proposal isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Anyway, to stay on topic- I agree broadly, but using C.Ham road is a non-runner, you can't just transfer stuff to Broadstone when that will lose capacity with Luas BXD and may well get subsumed into Grangegorman. I agree with the other poster, the Tara St area is the place and I have often imagined a huge, multi storey(internal access to a basement or higher levels where buses can lay over for extended periods of time, leaving the bottom level clear for through running of city bus services) transport hub there, fed directly by the Pearse St artery, the Marlborough St bus bridge, Fleet St for access from the College Green/Dame St. area and of course such a hub would directly include Tara St Dart station and access to BXD Luas stops.

corktina

ill-though out green rubbish...what about people wanting to make through journeys onto another mode/service?.... two central bus stations isn't the answer...a proper rail/bus/coach interchange with Luas access near the city centre is what is needed...Heuston is not this and never has been (and hopefiully never will be)

NoNewFriends

A private coach station in Galway, the Seán Duggan Centre, opened in 2009 and has been very successful. It's used by the various bus companies that provide tours of the West of Ireland to the Cliffs, the Burren etc. It's clean, spacious and easy to find your way around with plenty of staff willing to help.

I think Dublin could also use another coach station but I suggest it be used by private bus companies only. Where should the new coach station be situated? I don't know. But it would be ideal if it was connected to a Luas or DART line to facilitate onward journeys. Bus Áras is a horrible, dirty bus station. I imagine tourists are put off by the gangs of junkies who loiter around the building. The toilets inside are filthy and they even have the cheek to charge for them.

Mr Simpson

What about building one where the Connolly car park is. Build a Multistorey car park (which would take up a fraction of the space) and use the rest as a bus park.

Easy access to Port Tunnel, East Link, Luas, Dart and Train Services.

munchkin_utd

Mr Simpson wrote: »

What about building one where the Connolly car park is. Build a Multistorey car park (which would take up a fraction of the space) and use the rest as a bus park.

Easy access to Port Tunnel, East Link, Luas, Dart and Train Services.

sure wasnt that the plan at some stage ?

Mr Simpson

munchkin_utd wrote: »

sure wasnt that the plan at some stage ?

Dunno. But it makes sense in my mind

corktina

NoNewFriends wrote: »

A private coach station in Galway, the Seán Duggan Centre, opened in 2009 and has been very successful. It's used by the various bus companies that provide tours of the West of Ireland to the Cliffs, the Burren etc. It's clean, spacious and easy to find your way around with plenty of staff willing to help.

I think Dublin could also use another coach station but I suggest it be used by private bus companies only. Where should the new coach station be situated? I don't know. But it would be ideal if it was connected to a Luas or DART line to facilitate onward journeys. Bus Áras is a horrible, dirty bus station. I imagine tourists are put off by the gangs of junkies who loiter around the building. The toilets inside are filthy and they even have the cheek to charge for them.

some, probably most of those onward journeys would be on other coaches or city buses or Inter City trains. Most people wont want to lug their luggage on and off an extra train/tram leg of the journey.

dowlingm

One thought I've had is that buses coming from the northside could have a drop off/pickup point near but not at Busaras with terminal operations happening somewhere on the southside. This would be like where buses from the south drop off at Heuston before terminating at Busaras. It would mean more buses transiting the city centre, admittedly, but you'd hope the space freed up at Busaras by moving some buses to the southside terminus would allow some buses to be moved out of street termini with a counterbalancing freeing up for road space.

Item 1 on any such plan of course would have to be to take Busaras out of CIE ownership to ensure fair play. Can't see Aircoach etc. trusting CIE to play fair in gate allocation.

bk

NoNewFriends wrote: »

A private coach station in Galway, the Seán Duggan Centre, opened in 2009 and has been very successful. It's used by the various bus companies that provide tours of the West of Ireland to the Cliffs, the Burren etc. It's clean, spacious and easy to find your way around with plenty of staff willing to help.

Yes, the new coach station in Galway is excellent *, but the reason it works so well is it's central location. It is literally two minutes walk from Eyre Square and all the onward local buses, plus the train and bus station next door.

A coach station in Dublin needs to be equally well located and connected.

Huston is way too far it, even Connolly station isn't the greatest and as others say, it would need to be taken out of CIE control.

* It could do with a shop and cafe.

Chris_5339762

The Galway one is just what we need (with a shop and cafe yes) and approximately as far away from the center of Dublin (wherever that is nowadays).

LXFlyer

There is one aspect of this discussion that I agree with.

Dublin does need a second bus station for the other Intercity bus services, and remove them from the streets.

Which operators use which (i.e. Busaras and this second one) should be a decision for the NTA.

As to where it should be - well there is only one location that is readily available and is within striking distance of the city centre, and that is the old bus parking facility between Middle Abbey Street and Strand Street.

Frankly it is a no brainer.

Conyngham Road would be daft - it is too far away, and moving the depot to Broadstone would lead to increased dead running by Dublin Bus vehicles to/from outer termini in the mornings and evenings.

TheBandicoot

lxflyer wrote: »

and that is the old bus parking facility between Middle Abbey Street and Stand Street.

The access to that site seems pretty poor to me, all side roads and areas with lots of de facto pedestrianisation.

LXFlyer

TheBandicoot wrote: »

The access to that site seems pretty poor to me, all side roads and areas with lots of de facto pedestrianisation.

The site was used by Dublin Bus for years with no problem.

Why should other operators be any different?

Entry via Abbey Street, exit via Strand Street and Capel Street.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

The site was used by Dublin Bus for years with no problem.

Pre or post Luas?

LXFlyer

Pre-LUAS but why would that make a difference?

It's hardly as if there's going to be coaches entering/leaving every minute.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

Pre-LUAS but why would that make a difference?

It's hardly as if there's going to be coaches entering/leaving every minute.

Bus Aras is already a mess with the Luas and traffic competing for space.

Cookie_Monster

Turn O'Connell St into a bus only road with bays all up the middle angled for straight forward entry and exit. Can then act as a key hub for city, intercity and commuter bus routes and the Luas.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

The site was used by Dublin Bus for years with no problem.

Why should other operators be any different?

Entry via Abbey Street, exit via Strand Street and Capel Street.

The streets are narrow, there's the Luas and far higher footfall?

Boulevardier

In the 80s, there were plans for a new central bus station in Temple Bar. It was cancelled and the area became a "cultural quarter" instead.

I strongly suspect that people who are now senior in the Green Party were among those who insisted on "preserving" that area.

In any event, a new bus station needs to be near the city centre, but not inside traffic bottlenecks that would make for longer bus journey times.

One of the sites discussed in the 80s was at a then-vacant site at George's Quay, near tara St train station. I did not like the idea then, but since a lot of the private coaches pick up around there anyway, it might be workable if a site can still be found.

munchkin_utd

The back of connolly is ideal for a bus station.
The luas and dart is on the doorstep and eventually the Dart Underground to stephens green.

The main stumbling block folks have is that a change to get to the city proper means 2euro more of a fare with the dart or luas (or local bus).
Thats simply an organisational issue and with everything being ran by the NTA (including the pot of millions of subsidies for the various operators) they can bring in a solution with the stroke of a pen that allows suburban commuters terminating at the new bus station a short connection "for free" - which in reality would be a tiny surcharge on the commuter ticket price if theres no common unified tarif structure by then.

ballooba

It seems like key to any new city centre bus station would be to maximise the use of the foot print. Either underground or above ground. The space in the city centre is too valuable to be used as a bus park alone. Something complimentary to a bus station would be ideal e.g. Shopping Mall / Cinema / Food Court. You could also examine why there is no commercial core around Heuston. It's bounded on one side by Phoenix Park, another by Guinness, and another by track and Railway Yard. Maybe developing Guinness wouldn't have been so bad.

etchyed

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Turn O'Connell St into a bus only road with bays all up the middle angled for straight forward entry and exit. Can then act as a key hub for city, intercity and commuter bus routes and the Luas.

You want to turn O'Connell Street into a coach park? Jesus wept.

ballooba

etchyed wrote: »

You want to turn O'Connell Street into a coach park? Jesus wept.

If we start now we could have it in place for the centenary of 1916!

stehyl15

Bus Áras is a horrible, dirty bus station. I imagine tourists are put off by the gangs of junkies who loiter around the building. The toilets inside are filthy and they even have the cheek to charge for them.[/quote]sorry but bus and train stations in every other european country are dirty kips and all have gangs of knackers hanging around even worse still theres way more pickpoketers i do agree about the toilets. O/T i think since theres a lack of space i think an underground bus station would be a great idea because of the lack of space it would be like an underground car park with a raised ceiling.

ballooba

A bus station in O'Connell St or similar is not that crazy when you look at these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_Square_busway_station
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Street_bus_station

munchkin_utd

ballooba wrote: »

A bus station in O'Connell St or similar is not that crazy when you look at these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_Square_busway_station
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Street_bus_station

to be honest neither of those are terminius stations for intercity busses like busaras is.

stehyl15

I know there would a hole lots of objections too this but if we were really desprate we could always bulldoze merrion square or st.stephens green and turn it into a bus station sure busaras was built at the expence of some lovely georgian houses

stehyl15

The city centre is suffering with buses being held up too me it would too trial banning cars from the centre it could be buses, taxis, emergancy vehicles and delivery trucks only. If you lived near no direct city centre bus route or the luas and dart db or a private contractor could set up park and ride car parks a perfect example would be the old montrose hotel car park. It might work if it was done correctly.

stehyl15

The city centre is suffering with buses being held up too me it would too trial banning cars from the centre it could be buses, taxis, emergancy vehicles and delivery trucks only. If you lived near no direct city centre bus route or the luas and dart db or a private contractor could set up park and ride car parks a perfect example would be the old montrose hotel car park. It might work if it was done correctly.

Clare_Culchie

I've suggested elsewhere (The Journal) so sorry for repeating myself...

There's a substantial patch of unused, tarmac'ed free space to the immediate East of the O2 in The Point Village (which is NAMA'ed, I believe). This site is ample for building a private bus terminal. As an Intermodal Hub, it would allow for the easy transfer of passengers between Dublin Port (by shuttle-bus), Dublin Airport (by shuttle-bus via Dublin Port Tunnel), Dublin City (by Luas), Connolly and Heuston Railway Stations and Busáras (by Luas) and other towns and cities (M1-9 traffic around the M50 and through Dublin Port Tunnel, M11 traffic via East-Link).

A terminus on this site would allow scheduled intercity bus services to avoid Dublin City traffic entirely, particularly along the quays. The existing infrastructure Gibson Hotel, Odeon Cinema, Point Village Shopping Centre (currently almost empty), a large multi-storey car-park would provide the shelter and facilities necessary for transiting passengers. A drivers' rest-stop and restaurant could be provided to incentivise the companies to use the terminus (as Mother Hubbards and Harry's of Kinnegad used to do in days past).

Regular shuttle-services from this site to Dublin Airport would negate the need for private buses to continue to Dublin Airport.

During concerts, certain parking bays could be used by the private-hire bus companies to allow concert-goers alight safely before parking elsewhere. This may well assist in traffic-management during events at the O2.

This site is already primed for such a role. Aside from minor ground-work (construction of parking bays, fixed canopy walkways to Luas and Point Village Centre, for example), there's very little else required to make this work.

LivelineDipso

Broadstone is the obvious choice when the Luas Bx is completed.

Cookie_Monster

etchyed wrote: »

You want to turn O'Connell Street into a coach park? Jesus wept.

yep, why not. the usage it currently get isn't the most efficient, aside from being a massive throughway for private traffic it's a badly laid out serious of bus stops currently, a disaster of a taxi rank and a huge amount of wasted space in the middle whilst pedestrians are marginalised for the sake of extra traffic lanes.

banning private vehicle and at the same time creating a bus hub would make it far more vibrant and usefull to the city.

bk

Clare_Culchie, too far out, people don't want to have the extra expense and time to transfer on the Luas back into town.

Also the majority of bus services are coming in from the west side of Ireland so most would be going along the quays anyway to get there.

Putting the bus station in Connollys car park is a far better idea then this. I still think Connolly is a little too far from O'Connell St. but at least it is much closer then the point and it is right on the DART and commuter rail lines.

LivelineDipso Broadstone is too far out again.

To be honest, if somewhere closer to O'Connell St can't be found, then Connelly Station Car Park is probably the best idea.

Plenty of space at Connolly Station car park, it is very large. It would be big enough to take all the private coaches, plus all the BE coaches from BusAras, for a proper transport hub. I'd Imagine a multistorey building. First floor the buses obviously, second floor a station area (shops, passenger waiting areas, etc.) which would connect directly with Connelly train station concourse level), maybe a third level for CIE and private bus company adminstrative offices, break room for drivers, etc.) and then a couple of floors of a multistorey car park above it.

Obviously close Bus Aras and rebuild it as offices, to help finance the redevelopment at Connelly.

I also see the need for big access changes:

- Get rid of the Luas stop outside BusAras and Connolly and instead put a new stop in the other (through running) direction in front of Connolly.
- Open up the side door of Connolly across from Talbot street and significantly improve the pedestrian crossing to Talbot street and significantly improve the pedestrianisation of Talbot street as a link to O'Connell Street area.
- You would probably need motorised walkways, to link the bus station section to the train station section and down to both the Luas stop and the Talbot Street entrance.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yep, why not. the usage it currently get isn't the most efficient, aside from being a massive throughway for private traffic it's a badly laid out serious of bus stops currently, a disaster of a taxi rank and a huge amount of wasted space in the middle whilst pedestrians are marginalised for the sake of extra traffic lanes.

banning private vehicle and at the same time creating a bus hub would make it far more vibrant and usefull to the city.

The point is taking the coaches off the streets and providing proper waiting facilities etc.

At least come up with some common sense suggestions.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Clare_Culchie, too far out, people don't want to have the extra expense and time to transfer on the Luas back into town.

Also the majority of bus services are coming in from the west side of Ireland so most would be going along the quays anyway to get there.

Putting the bus station in Connollys car park is a far better idea then this. I still think Connolly is a little too far from O'Connell St. but at least it is much closer then the point and it is right on the DART and commuter rail lines.

LivelineDipso Broadstone is too far out again.

To be honest, if somewhere closer to O'Connell St can't be found, then Connelly Station Car Park is probably the best idea.

Plenty of space at Connolly Station car park, it is very large. It would be big enough to take all the private coaches, plus all the BE coaches from BusAras, for a proper transport hub. I'd Imagine a multistorey building. First floor the buses obviously, second floor a station area (shops, passenger waiting areas, etc.) which would connect directly with Connelly train station concourse level), maybe a third level for CIE and private bus company adminstrative offices, break room for drivers, etc.) and then a couple of floors of a multistorey car park above it.

Obviously close Bus Aras and rebuild it as offices, to help finance the redevelopment at Connelly.

I also see the need for big access changes:

- Get rid of the Luas stop outside BusAras and Connolly and instead put a new stop in the other (through running) direction in front of Connolly.
- Open up the side door of Connolly across from Talbot street and significantly improve the pedestrian crossing to Talbot street and significantly improve the pedestrianisation of Talbot street as a link to O'Connell Street area.
- You would probably need motorised walkways, to link the bus station section to the train station section and down to both the Luas stop and the Talbot Street entrance.

For the record, Broadstone is no further from the GPO than Connolly Station is!

ballooba

bk wrote: »

Obviously close Bus Aras and rebuild it as offices, to help finance the redevelopment at Connelly.

You do realise that Bus Aras is a listed building of architectural significance?

foggy_lad

lxflyer wrote: »

For the record, Broadstone is no further from the GPO than Connolly Station is!

Both are too far from o connell street and without a proper luas link would be useless. Any new bus station needs a luas stop right beside it and should not involve long walks like from the connolly car park out to the connolly station luas stop. Abbey street would be perfect with the luas stop beside it and also right in the city centre next to Jervis sc and only a short walk from the temple bar area.

LXFlyer

foggy_lad wrote: »

Both are too far from o connell street and without a proper luas link would be useless. Any new bus station needs a luas stop right beside it and should not involve long walks like from the connolly car park out to the connolly station luas stop. Abbey street would be perfect with the luas stop beside it and also right in the city centre next to Jervis sc and only a short walk from the temple bar area.

Just making the point that Broadstone is nowhere near as far as some people think it is.

However, I would agree - a bus station needs to be reasonably central.

Hence I would prefer the Dublin Bus parking yard on Abbey Street.

corktina

ballooba wrote: »

You do realise that Bus Aras is a listed building of architectural significance?

cess pits can get listed nowadays?

bikeman1

lxflyer wrote: »

Just making the point that Broadstone is nowhere near as far as some people think it is.

However, I would agree - a bus station needs to be reasonably central.

Hence I would prefer the Dublin Bus parking yard on Abbey Street.

When you say Dublin Bus parking yard on Abbey Street, where do you mean? Is it where the current 130 , 31/32/29A, 41/B/C, 33 bus stops are?

LXFlyer

bikeman1 wrote: »

When you say Dublin Bus parking yard on Abbey Street, where do you mean? Is it where the current 130 , 31/32/29A, 41/B/C, 33 bus stops are?

I said "yard", not on-street!

Dublin Bus had a large parking yard off Middle Abbey Street, that has been vacant since the LUAS was being built, where they could park buses safely during city centre layovers.

bikeman1

lxflyer wrote: »

I said "yard", not on-street!

Dublin Bus had a large parking yard off Middle Abbey Street, that has been vacant since the LUAS was being built, where they could park buses safely during city centre layovers.

Thats ok, I know Dublin very well, but where is this yard off Middle Abbey St you talk of.

I remember the 134 used to terminate on Middle Abbey St before the luas.

LXFlyer

Forget about on-street termini. This is not a terminus - it is a parking yard where buses could be parked off-street during long layovers.

The yard is between Middle Abbey Street and Strand Street and is accessed off Middle Abbey Street west of Liffey Street.

It has lain unused since the LUAS works started.

bk

Broadstone to the spire is 1.2km a 17 minute walk

Connolly Station is 700 meters from the spire, a 9 minute walk.

Connolly is within the 15 minute distance that is considered ok but not great for transfers. Broadstone is outside it.

Connolly also has the advantage of more and better connections then broadstone (DART, commuter rail, luas, etc.. Also the walk from Connolly to the spire is much more direct and could be greatly improved with signage and pedestrianisation.

However I agree that somewhere closer to the city center like Abbey Street would be better again.