Estate moving to communal bins...

timmer3

Hi,
i live in a small dublin estate, where of about 20 houses, there are at least 60 bins, left out in a haphazard way and not collected by the home-owners in some cases till a week later. the result is that the entrance to the estate is crowded by bins all the time and is very unattractive. even if the bins were put back the next day, all you see is bins in front of every house and its very untidy. the estate was built about 20 years ago and wasn't designed to house 3 bins on the foot path outside each house.

at the last AGM the residents voted unanimously to build a small communal bin shelter in an un-used communal green area at the entrance. 2 residents didn't attend the AGM and have since complained and are trying to block it with threat of court injunction etc. their concerns have all been addressed reasonably (in my view) but i get the impression it's just a case of digging in heels etc.

can anyone advise if they can successfully block the building of the bin shelter? the residents at the AGM were in favour of removing all wheelie bins from the estate, but i'm wondering if this will be possible. presumably each owner can still contract their own private waste collection, even if communal facilities are provided and charged as part of the management fee? or could the House Rules state that private waste collection is not allowed? i've read up on the MUD act regarding voting rights etc and most of this referred to passing the budget each year, and not on individual decisions. thanks for any advice!

D3PO

I don't think you can change the house rules to stop somebody contracting a bin provider independently. That said I cant see the point in them doing so as they will essentially be paying twice for their waste collection.

They are perfectly entitled to take you to court to get an injunction weather its granted or not is a different story, maybe they are trying to dig their heels in or maybe they don't want communal green space taken up by a bin shelter etc

timmer3

indeed, i'm all in favour of people exercising their rights and am quite happy for this to take its course.

D3PO

keep us updated with the outcome.

seamus

D3PO's spot on here. The devil is in the details though, this is probably one of the older managed estates in the country, so it may depend on what the leasehold agreements state.

Typically the management company own the communal areas, so are free to use them as they see fit. Though any new buildings would be subject to the usual planning regulations, so they could block the bin shelter that way. In fact, I don't think a court would even entertain them if they haven't lodged an objection via the local planners.

They could also attack it the company law route, if they could show proof that the company is acting in a reckless manner. But that's unlikely.

The purpose of the MUD act is really to protect homeowners against management company directors who may empower themselves to act autonomously and to give them an ongoing say in how things are run. Outside of the provisions of the MUD act, the management company acts as a normal company where shareholders vote at E/O/AGMs and those votes are effectively binding.

I doubt you could change the house rules to prevent owners from contracting private collection services - that may not be legal - however you could make rules whereby bins can't be left outside for more than X hours and must not be placed in a such a way that they cause a hindrance to others.

As said, they would also have no provision for deducting bin fees from their management fee just because they choose to not use the communal service.

xper

timmer3 wrote: »

...at the last AGM the residents voted unanimously to build a small communal bin shelter in an un-used communal green area at the entrance....

Just thinking out loud...
I would imagine that planning permission could be a bigger possible impediment to this course of action than a possible injunction against the management company decision itself (which, if the AGM was conducted properly, would seem fine to me on the face of it). There may be stipulations in the original pp for the estate about the amount of open space to be retained or even how refuse is to be handled or other requirements that conflict with the construction of a communal bins compound. No doubt there'll be objections lodged to the new pp application by the residents threatening the injunction. The planning authority may themselves consider the proposed site inappropriate (access, visual, smell, noise and traffic considerations all come into play).

I'd be having a discussion with the local authority planning office before spending any further time or money.

I'd check also if and what implications for the management company's insurance policy exist.

xper

Oh, and consider that if the proposed site is near the entrance of the estate, that would increase the likelihood of chancers from outside trying to use it so consider other more discreet locations if available and/or restricting access.

Also, bear in mind planting and landscaping to soften the blow. I see too many breeze block and metal fenced enclosures sticking out like a sore thumb in many an otherwise well kept communal grounds.

timmer3

hi all, many thanks for the input. the plan includes a combination lock on the gate, with IP/CCTV, it's well tucked in from the entrance to the estate and not visible from the road. plenty of climbing plants etc also part of the plan to blend it in with the green area! we opted for steel frame with timber cladding, like this one, should look well, obviously won't go for turquoise paint colour!
we actually have a dumping problem at the moment from the amount of bins being left out front, people just throw black bags behind (or in) the bins.
it would improve the estate no end, but 2 people seem very determined to block it. will post the outcome of the dispute here.

Ray Palmer

It seems like a terrible idea.

1) People from outside the estate will likely dump rubbish in the bins
2) If the bins are full people will dump rubbish by them
3) Collection of money for the bins will eventually become an issue
4) No incentive for people to reduce waste on an individual basis
5) People now have to drag their rubbish to this new bin
6) People will drop rubbish going to the bin

That isn't even going into the whole planning permission issue for the bin depot that will need to be sorted and insurance issues that also raises

I'd object.

timmer3

Ray Palmer wrote: »

1) People from outside the estate will likely dump rubbish in the bins

Security lock + CCTV

Ray Palmer wrote: »

2) If the bins are full people will dump rubbish by them

weekly collection, adequate storage capacity.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

3) Collection of money for the bins will eventually become an issue

part of management fee, have to pay. minimum 30% cost savings to all residents overall.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

4) No incentive for people to reduce waste on an individual basis

this one i would partly agree on, however the conscientious people will still reduce waste for environmental reasons. also, the group pays so it is in the individual's interest.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

5) People now have to drag their rubbish to this new bin

walk 20 metres with a small indoor bin every 2 days, for the sake of a clean and tidy estate... not such a big deal. and you no longer have to (literally) drag 3 wheelie bins out to the front of the estate and back.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

6) People will drop rubbish going to the bin

they should pick it up...

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That isn't even going into the whole planning permission issue for the bin depot that will need to be sorted and insurance issues that also raises

no big deal.

interesting to see the negative point of view though.

athtrasna

We have communal bins in our development and they are much cleaner and a tidier alternative to individual wheelie bins. My only warning/concern would be an enquiry as regards management fee payment levels in the development, and sanctions for non payment. If you do switch to communal bins and someone doesn't pay fees, are bin services withdrawn? This could lead to illegal dumping.

timmer3

thanks for the reply athtrasna. thankfully we have no problems currently with people paying the management fee. if there was a problem, they would get debt collection letters etc. (and be charged for the cost of this) and i suppose we could change the code on the lock and not tell them, and even start checking the CCTV, but that's a bit extreme.

Ray Palmer

timmer3 wrote: »

Security lock + CCTV

weekly collection, adequate storage capacity.
etc...

interesting to see the negative point of view though.

1. Who will monitor the CCTV how long will the tapes be kept?
2. Say if the capacity isn't enough
3. People don't always pay management fees
4. The very reason there is a charge for rubbish is people aren't coconscious about their rubbish
5. 20 metre walk in the winter will change people's minds
6. If people don't take their bins in after a week what makes you think they will pick up and walk back to the bin open up a locked area and dump it again

Planning and insurance are a big deal. Your insurance is going to go up by placing a bin depot.

You might consider it a negative view while I see it as a realistic view. You already have a dumping problem and residents that don't take care of their bins. You are expecting this to change while making it easier to do.

the_syco

timmer3 wrote: »

Security lock + CCTV

weekly collection, adequate storage capacity.

I'm assuming that none of the houses are rented, otherwise this will be a favourite spot for ex-tenants, and current landlords, to drop off their rubbish.

Oh, and a hoody at night will prevent most CCTV usefulness.

timmer3

Ray Palmer wrote: »

1. Who will monitor the CCTV how long will the tapes be kept?
2. Say if the capacity isn't enough
3. People don't always pay management fees
4. The very reason there is a charge for rubbish is people aren't coconscious about their rubbish
5. 20 metre walk in the winter will change people's minds
6. If people don't take their bins in after a week what makes you think they will pick up and walk back to the bin open up a locked area and dump it again

Planning and insurance are a big deal. Your insurance is going to go up by placing a bin depot.

You might consider it a negative view while I see it as a realistic view. You already have a dumping problem and residents that don't take care of their bins. You are expecting this to change while making it easier to do.

i do really appreciate the view point here, in particular because some of these points will no doubt be raised by residents if we get past the initial objection with the plans.

the camera will record on motion detection and will only be checked when there is a problem, i.e. mis-use of the bins. it will be an IP camera so no tapes or active monitoring required. ample hard drive space available.
we have budgeted for 3 euro bins, with space in the shelter for 5 should this not be enough.
our residents do pay their management fees, this problem is not really related to bins, and we can block people from using the bins if they don't pay up (changing the code).
the conscientious people will still be conscientious, i don't expect the introduction of the bin shelter to change bin usage either way.
people still have to walk out with their wheelie bins in the winter.
people can be lazy and forgetful, but i'm not expecting anyone to leave a trail of rubbish behind them when they carry an indoor bin down to the shelter. no more than pushing a wheelie bin down the drive.

in summary, there are a couple of minor inconveniences to the proposed bin shelter, as you have outlined, but all the residents at the AGM voted that the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

the_syco

timmer3 wrote: »

f there was a problem, they would get debt collection letters etc. (and be charged for the cost of this)

Said letters would just go into said bin; debt collection companies have no extra power in Ireland.

timmer3

the_syco wrote: »

I'm assuming that none of the houses are rented, otherwise this will be a favourite spot for ex-tenants, and current landlords, to drop off their rubbish.

Oh, and a hoody at night will prevent most CCTV usefulness.

thanks for the input here. there are a couple of rentals, mostly for students. as soon as we identify one case of outside use, we just change the code.

timmer3

the_syco wrote: »

Said letters would just go into said bin; debt collection companies have no extra power in Ireland.

true, except that when the charges keep increasing, people eventually pay up to avoid further interest penalties. we have a monthly direct debit option also.

Larbre34

As a member of a management company committee responsible for a communal bin set up that covers only PART of our estate, I would highly recommend against them unless a few things are done.

People are basically chancers, open bin compounds are used and abused to an appalling degree, Ive had to prosecute people coming in from outside to dump in it, despite the fact its behind electric gates. It becomes a magnet for dumped furniture and white goods.

If you are going to do it, let anyone that doesnt want to be part of it keep their private bin, it will still be a huge reduction in the number of wheeled bins lying around the place.

Build a solid, roofed compound with a strong external door. Only issue keys to those who have signed up and are payed up with their charges, otherwise withdraw them. You will need to go through Planning and the cost might escalate if you are block building but its worth it in the long run.

seamus

Larbre34 wrote: »

It becomes a magnet for dumped furniture and white goods.

This is true and is really the only problem we have in our place. Whether it's locals or outsiders dumping the stuff we don't know, but every so often a fridge or a couch or something will appear in our bin shed, or someone will throw a bike into one of the bins.
Our bin company takes it all away, but I don't know if this is standard. We pay through the nose on the agreement that they will take everything because the builder wasn't bothered putting any kind of security on the bin sheds and the management company doesn't have the funds to do it (because we're paying huge fees for rubbish, ironically).

Can't really stress enough how strong the door has to be. You want a heavy door with a steel sheet covering it and a good strong deadbolt.

The kind of scumbags who dump in other bins have no qualms about taking out a crowbar and ripping the door open, taking a sledgehammer to the lock, or one case I even heard of a door being rammed by a jeep with bull bars to knock the door in. Just so they can drop their rubbish problem on someone else.

One alternative solution which I'm not sure if you've thought of, is a bin "area". Basically instead of building a bin shed, you just pave a small section and ensure that it's accessible by path and by road. You instruct all residents to leave their wheelie bins on the paved area and instruct the bin companies to only collect bins that have been left on the paved area.

Kind of solves the cluttered bins problem, but without creating a potential bigger problem.

Del2005

timmer3 wrote: »

the camera will record on motion detection and will only be checked when there is a problem, i.e. mis-use of the bins. it will be an IP camera so no tapes or active monitoring required. ample hard drive space available.

Make sure your data protection documentation is up to date if your MC is installing a camera, who'll have access to the recordings for what purposes etc.

murphaph

seamus wrote: »

One alternative solution which I'm not sure if you've thought of, is a bin "area". Basically instead of building a bin shed, you just pave a small section and ensure that it's accessible by path and by road. You instruct all residents to leave their wheelie bins on the paved area and instruct the bin companies to only collect bins that have been left on the paved area.

Kind of solves the cluttered bins problem, but without creating a potential bigger problem.

I think for the OP's case this is a perfect (and much cheaper and hassle free) solution (assuming the estate really is small). The bin company is even likely to support it as it means no loss of income for them and a quicker job! However, if people don't remove their bins from the bin area (which is the current problem) it'll also possibly become a magnet for illegal dumping, such is the sad state of affairs in Ireland :-(