Dublin Bus and Luas Cross City conflicts

ballooba

Has there been a concerted effort by Dublin Bus to play up the problems with traffic flow on Dawson St since the Luas Cross City works kicked off? I've been held up several times now sitting in traffic while the bus lane sits empty. Why are drivers not using the bus lane?

monument

ballooba wrote: »

Has there been a concerted effort by Dublin Bus to play up the problems with traffic flow on Dawson St since the Luas Cross City works kicked off? I've been held up several times now sitting in traffic while the bus lane sits empty. Why are drivers not using the bus lane?

Are you sure the bus lane was not obstructed ahead?

Conway635

It would be lovely if there were a bus lane on Dawson Street.

What we actually have there is an amazing Irish invention in creative use of road space - a combination bus lane and taxi rank. And buses have to pull out of it early, otherwise they risk being hemmed in by a wall of traffic to one side, and a herd of taxis in front.

C635

Conway635

I knew I had a photo of this unique Irish creation, the "Buxi Lane" somewhere . . .

pclive

I dont think that taxi rank is in use at peak periods

Time plate as viewed on google maps shows 20:00hrs - 06:00hrs Mon - Sun

Losty Dublin

pclive wrote: »

I dont think that taxi rank is in use at peak periods

That one isn't but the one further down is a daytime rank. It's partially set into the path but not by enough to render the bus lane totally free. The loading bay beside it also causes issues.

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

Has there been a concerted effort by Dublin Bus to play up the problems with traffic flow on Dawson St since the Luas Cross City works kicked off? I've been held up several times now sitting in traffic while the bus lane sits empty. Why are drivers not using the bus lane?

Well the bus I've just got off used it so no is the answer to your first question.

ballooba

monument wrote: »

Are you sure the bus lane was not obstructed ahead?

This morning it was partially obstructed by one lorry, which was in a loading bay. The loading bay partially overlaps with the bus lane but it would be possible to get around. That doesn't explain the other couple of hundred metres of free space.

Conway635 wrote: »

It would be lovely if there were a bus lane on Dawson Street.

What we actually have there is an amazing Irish invention in creative use of road space - a combination bus lane and taxi rank. And buses have to pull out of it early, otherwise they risk being hemmed in by a wall of traffic to one side, and a herd of taxis in front.

C635

Isn't that a clearway at rush hour?

Conway635

Everyone is correct about the bus lane and the taxi rank operating at different hours . .

BUT

this approach, IMHO, makes a mockery of the concept of "Quality Bus Corridor" . . . which is all about uninterrupted (or as close as possible) bus priority operating on a near-247 basis.

You see, we just don't do QBC here.

We love the concept.

We love the name.

We love to bask in the self-satisfaction of having installed X number of miles of QBC

but we don't follow through by actually providing the priority on the ground.

We compromise with other road users, we compromise with parking at certain times, we compromise with frequency for cost cutting, we compromise with taxi ranks . . and bendy bus stops . . and just about anything else.

So what we end up with is bits of buslane, not QBC.

When you read about QBCs in the NTA's plans, don't be fooled.

What we are really getting is not QBC, but Bits Of Random Buslane Cobbled Together (BORBCT)

C635

LeinsterDub

I haven't heard the term QBC for years. Haven't DB ,DCC and the surrounding LA's drop the pretence years ago?

LXFlyer

Have a look at Merrion Row an evening and try to figure out how a bus driver is supposed to serve the stop safely.

It's surrounded by a taxi rank after 8pm.

Same applies to St Stephen's Green North where the main rank magically extends back to Kildare Street after dark, through one bus stop, and don't get me started on the bottom of Grafton Street, or indeed Nassau St where an illegally parked tour coach forced anyone wanting to board the bus I'm on now to walk out onto the street.

Banjoxed

Conway635 wrote: »

Everyone is correct about the bus lane and the taxi rank operating at different hours . .

BUT

this approach, IMHO, makes a mockery of the concept of "Quality Bus Corridor" . . . which is all about uninterrupted (or as close as possible) bus priority operating on a near-247 basis.

You see, we just don't do QBC here.

We love the concept.

We love the name.

We love to bask in the self-satisfaction of having installed X number of miles of QBC

but we don't follow through by actually providing the priority on the ground.

We compromise with other road users, we compromise with parking at certain times, we compromise with frequency for cost cutting, we compromise with taxi ranks . . and bendy bus stops . . and just about anything else.

So what we end up with is bits of buslane, not QBC.

When you read about QBCs in the NTA's plans, don't be fooled.

What we are really getting is not QBC, but Bits Of Random Buslane Cobbled Together (BORBCT)

C635

Indeed. If there was even a sniff of a real BRT like Luton - Dunstable then the papers would be full of folks having a mickey fit that any more road space would be dedicated to public transport. Sure the city would never recover, just like the hyperbole over the Luas construction.

dazberry

I don't have to think back too far to remember the ensuing chaos on James Street outside the hospital when the track was being laid, yes that long stretch, often causing traffic to back up almost to Inchicore village. One day in particular, with the inside lane closed off, a truck had diagonally pulled into that lane, and also blocked the (open) inbound lane. In those days at worst it took 40 minutes from Inchicore into Westmoreland Street on the 51b, that day it took 80 minutes, could have walked it quicker.

D.

AlekSmart

ballooba wrote: »

Has there been a concerted effort by Dublin Bus to play up the problems with traffic flow on Dawson St since the Luas Cross City works kicked off? I've been held up several times now sitting in traffic while the bus lane sits empty. Why are drivers not using the bus lane?

I can assure Balooba,that the problems apparent with the Line BXD work need absolutely NO playing up whatsoever,In fact I can't imagine what BAC could possibly gain from talking-up the untalkable.

Plenty of nice colourful graphics,plenty of fencing,the odd site-worker,and limitless numbers of Taxi's,Delivery Trucks,Full Size 40 Tonne Artics,and whatever other mode of vehicle you wish to include allied to absolutely NO enforcement of a single rule or regulation relating to general Road Traffic,never mind any special one for BXD works.

By far and away the most quaint signage has to be the large ones warning of the No Left Turn into Nassau St which also tells us that Deliveries can be scheduled between 0600 and 1100 daily.

This being Ireland,one will struggle to find evidence of any Delivery Life at the 0600 end but risk being steamrolled at 1030 as the flock descends......If there is a functional Civic Administration then it needs to reinforce it's message and start incentivising the early-starters....something which might be made easier if My Employer were operating a 24 hour Bus Service to get early-starting workers to their places of work......Knee Bone-Thigh Bone-Hip Bone......;)

Other than that the BXD project is progressing pretty much as we could expect......:)

ballooba

AlekSmart wrote: »

Plenty of nice colourful graphics,plenty of fencing,the odd site-worker,and limitless numbers of Taxi's,Delivery Trucks,Full Size 40 Tonne Artics,and whatever other mode of vehicle you wish to include allied to absolutely NO enforcement of a single rule or regulation relating to general Road Traffic,never mind any special one for BXD works.

QFT. I sense your frustration, and I share it. I LOLed at the above bit.

aloyisious

More FFS coming down the road. The biggest traffic changes on St Stephen’s Green since the Luas Green Line was constructed almost a decade ago, are to come into force in two month’s time. New traffic routes are being introduced to divert cars and buses away from the site of the Cross City Luas line ahead of the start of work to lay the tracks

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/changes-to-st-stephen-s-green-traffic-by-november-1.1513490

Lifelike

aloyisious wrote: »

More FFS coming down the road. The biggest traffic changes on St Stephen’s Green since the Luas Green Line was constructed almost a decade ago, are to come into force in two month’s time. New traffic routes are being introduced to divert cars and buses away from the site of the Cross City Luas line ahead of the start of work to lay the tracks

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/changes-to-st-stephen-s-green-traffic-by-november-1.1513490

Once the left turn from Dawson st to Nassau st is eliminated, does this mean that all buses will have to be diverted down Westland Row and Pearse st permanently? Does this also mean that Suffolk st will effectively be pedestrianised?

The more I seem to read up about Luas Cross City, the more ridiculous it seems. It looks like it'll create more problems than it will solve.

AlekSmart

Lifelike wrote: »

Once the left turn from Dawson st to Nassau st is eliminated, does this mean that all buses will have to be diverted down Westland Row and Pearse st permanently? Does this also mean that Suffolk st will effectively be pedestrianised?

The more I seem to read up about Luas Cross City, the more ridiculous it seems. It looks like it'll create more problems than it will solve.

Problems....pish n tosh Lifelike...you are far too negative

It's all a cunning stunt y'know....a fiendish plot.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/changes-to-st-stephen-s-green-traffic-by-november-1.1513490

Probably the most telling part of that article is this......

The second major change is at the diagonally opposite corner of the green with the creation of a new turn from St Stephen’s Green South onto the west side of the green. Traffic taking this new turn will cross the existing Luas line and then run parallel with the line as far as York Street. This turn allows motorists access to the Royal College of Surgeons and St Stephen’s Green car parks, or they can continue on to Mercer Street and take Noel Purcell Walk to access Drury Street and the car parks in that area.

One might have expected that all this Trammery might just have stimulated some questioning of these City Centre Multi-Stories,but this being Ireland,there's not so much as an eyebrow raised at the inherent contradiction....:rolleyes:

The REALLY good,even magical,news is that after all of the Tramming and associated awful impositions upon Dublins motoring public DCC have managed a minor miracle.....The TOTAL number of On-Street Car Parking Spaces around SSG will INCREASE from 84 to 87 !!!!

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/ScheduledDisruptions/Documents/South_Traffic_Part_8_Final_Planning_Report.pdf

Yea verily,it's a win-win situation sure nuff

dublinman1990

When I looked at these plans with some more detail, it appears to be not that bad for bus drivers. However I think that there are details that I would like to see addressed.

Plus; I think motorists are going to have more challenges to get around Molesworth Street & Nassau Street in the months ahead. If the Luas works are to be constructed along College Green; How will be it would be logical for motorists to have these solutions whenever they leave or enter SSG.

As the Luas works will be going on at the same time when Motorists are turning left to Molesworth Street. Will there be enough room for cars to pass through the area when builders are constructing the BXD project at the same time? It sounds to me that motorists having to go down Dawson Street after passing Molesworth Street will have nowhere to go other than going towards Westland Row.

Whenever the new bus lane opens on Dawson Street after the Luas works are finished; How will the extra bus lane there be big enough to cater for bus traffic? This I feel might become a two-sided Luas track & a cycle lane as this is an ideal solution instead of combining Luas tracks with a new single bus lane as it may become too narrow for buses.

You have to consider having space to cater the width of the trams, it's Track Bed & overhead equipment when they are travelling along Dawson Street even when the project is completed.

aloyisious

I assume the pedestrian lights and island at the Dawson/Nassau St junction will be gone (cornering room for the trams) maybe moved a few metres to the "Costa-café" corner. There'll always be a need for safe-crossing there.

monument

aloyisious wrote: »

I assume the pedestrian lights and island at the Dawson/Nassau St junction will be gone (cornering room for the trams) maybe moved a few metres to the "Costa-café" corner. There'll always be a need for safe-crossing there.

The crossing will be just about in the same place, and there'll only be one leg of the crossing with no island.

There's going to be a ban on right turns from Dawson Street to Nassau Street (and only trams / bus lane traffic will be able to go left). The current right turn space will be built on as footpath and the current left turn crossing will be widened to accommodate Luas tracks in both directions.

aloyisious

So it look's like there might be a race between the tram and bus (knowing humans for being "stupid") drivers around the left-turn as they're "channelled "onto the single lane towards Grafton St. I can see the chance of fatal incidents with the gap between the junction-kerb and the island increasing with a tram blocking a bus-drivers view (and same in reverse for tram-drivers) of what pedestrians are doing. We do ignore the Red NO-WALKING signal there regularly.

Edit: I suspect that, drivers being human, a bus-driver will see no trams coming up Nassau St towards him/her and take a chance to get around a tram at the corner

Gael23

What's going to happen to all the bus stops on o Connell street?

dublinbusdude

ryanf1 wrote: »

What's going to happen to all the bus stops on o Connell street?

Good Question!

markpb

My understanding is that the northbound tram track will only be on-street at the south end of O'Connell st. After that it'll move into the centre median to leave space for bus stops and a lane of traffic. The southbound track will be over on Marlborough st.

Lifelike

The Irish Times article actually contradicts the above diagram. It says:

Restrictions and traffic bans will however come into force from next year onwards, when the left turn from Dawson Street to Nassau Street, used by buses and for deliveries at certain times, will be eliminated.

...Once the Luas line is operational the right turn at the end of Dawson Street will be a bus lane only so motorists who decide to turn from the green into Dawson Street will have to turn right into Molesworth Street.

As long as the left turn at the end of Dawson st isn't actually eliminated then I guess the proposals aren't all that bad.

aloyisious

Lifelike wrote: »

The Irish Times article actually contradicts the above diagram. It says:


As long as the left turn at the end of Dawson st isn't actually eliminated then I guess the proposals aren't all that bad.

Is the article by Frank McDonald?

dublinman1990

aloyisious wrote: »

Is the article by Frank McDonald?

No. The writer of the article is a woman named Olivia Kelly.

She is the Dublin Correspondent for the IT.

http://www.irishtimes.com/olivia-kelly-7.1837481

cdebru

aloyisious wrote: »

So it look's like there might be a race between the tram and bus (knowing humans for being "stupid") drivers around the left-turn as they're "channelled "onto the single lane towards Grafton St. I can see the chance of fatal incidents with the gap between the junction-kerb and the island increasing with a tram blocking a bus-drivers view (and same in reverse for tram-drivers) of what pedestrians are doing. We do ignore the Red NO-WALKING signal there regularly.

Edit: I suspect that, drivers being human, a bus-driver will see no trams coming up Nassau St towards him/her and take a chance to get around a tram at the corner

Eh no I can't see that happening it's a 30kmh zone no way can I see buses and trams tangling or trying to overtake, it doesn't happen anywhere else where they share road space.
You would have to be a complete lunatic to attempt to overtake a luas on a blind bend with nowhere else to go if a tram comes around the bend. Anyone who would even contemplate doing something like that should never be allowed behind the wheel of any vehicle nevermind a bus.

dublinman1990

aloyisious wrote: »

So it look's like there might be a race between the tram and bus (knowing humans for being "stupid") drivers around the left-turn as they're "channelled "onto the single lane towards Grafton St. I can see the chance of fatal incidents with the gap between the junction-kerb and the island increasing with a tram blocking a bus-drivers view (and same in reverse for tram-drivers) of what pedestrians are doing. We do ignore the Red NO-WALKING signal there regularly.

Edit: I suspect that, drivers being human, a bus-driver will see no trams coming up Nassau St towards him/her and take a chance to get around a tram at the corner

cdebru wrote: »

Eh no I can't see that happening it's a 30kmh zone no way can I see buses and trams tangling or trying to overtake, it doesn't happen anywhere else where they share road space.
You would have to be a complete lunatic to attempt to overtake a luas on a blind bend with nowhere else to go if a tram comes around the bend. Anyone who would even contemplate doing something like that should never be allowed behind the wheel of any vehicle nevermind a bus.

I am also saying that this is what pedestrians who go around Dublin in their daily lives are now afraid of in my view.

We shouldn't forget a similar situation earlier in the year when one pedestrian was killed by a 145 bus by going over his own head. We don't want to think to either contemplate the idea again of a bus with any route number on it trying to run anybody over even with a tram going into the mix.

It is a sensible idea not to re-consider it.

AlekSmart

dublinman1990 wrote: »

We shouldn't forget a similar situation earlier in the year when one pedestrian was killed by a 145 bus by going over his own head. We don't want to think to either contemplate the idea again of a bus with any route number on it trying to run anybody over even with a tram going into the mix.

It is a sensible idea not to re-consider it.

An accident with a VERY specific set of contributory circumstances,all of which will be given in evidence in an upcoming criminal case and NONE of which is of relevance to this thread topic..At all!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0531/453880-trial-date-set-for-dublin-bus-killing/

To bring this incident into this debate is,I feel,unsustainable.

LXFlyer

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I am also saying that this is what pedestrians who go around Dublin in their daily lives are now afraid of in my view.

We shouldn't forget a similar situation earlier in the year when one pedestrian was killed by a 145 bus by going over his own head. We don't want to think to either contemplate the idea again of a bus with any route number on it trying to run anybody over even with a tram going into the mix.

It is a sensible idea not to re-consider it.

This post is utter nonsense and totally irrelevant to this topic. It has nothing to do with the safety of that junction.

donvito99

I think the introduction of Luas will make that Dawson/Nassau Jct safer. The width of the footpath on the southside of Nassau east of Dawson is another problem that needs to be rectified.

Gael23

It all seems a bit unnecessary to me. Think of the havoc this will cause for the sake of saving a 10-15 minute walk

markpb

ryanf1 wrote: »

It all seems a bit unnecessary to me. Think of the havoc this will cause for the sake of saving a 10-15 minute walk

It's a 15 minute walk from St Stephens Green to Broombridge?

cdebru

markpb wrote: »

It's a 15 minute walk from St Stephens Green to Broombridge?

depends how long your legs are I guess .

Gael23

markpb wrote: »

It's a 15 minute walk from St Stephens Green to Broombridge?

No from Stephens green to the start of the red line

markpb

ryanf1 wrote: »

No from Stephens green to the start of the red line

Why are you ignoring the biggest part of the new line which is D (to Broombridge) not the city centre part.

In any case, do you really think its a bad idea to join the two lines up and make public transport more appealing? Why not ban all buses and cars from the city centre if its only a 15 minute walk?

LXFlyer

ryanf1 wrote: »

It all seems a bit unnecessary to me. Think of the havoc this will cause for the sake of saving a 10-15 minute walk

markpb wrote: »

It's a 15 minute walk from St Stephens Green to Broombridge?

ryanf1 wrote: »

No from Stephens green to the start of the red line

markpb wrote: »

Why are you ignoring the biggest part of the new line? Do you really think its a bad idea to join the two lines up and make public transport more appealing? Why not ban all buses and cars from the city centre if its only a 15 minute walk?

The main aim of BXD is not joining the two LUAS lines - it is about providing a further cross-city connection between north west Dublin (linking with the Maynooth line at Broombridge) and south east Dublin.

I do have some misgivings about the impact the construction phase will have on bus routes - particularly removing buses from Nassau Street and Suffolk Street and forcing everything via Westland Row and Pearse Street - this, one would hope, will only be a temporary measure.