Author Will Self questioned for walking with his son

tritium

From RTE

writer and journalist Will Self has expressed anger after being stopped by police in Yorkshire while out walking with his son because he says officers suspected he was a paedophile.
The 51-year-old TV star was enjoying a long walk with his 11-year-old when a squad car and police van stopped him on a Yorkshire roadside.
Mr Self was questioned about what he and the schoolboy were doing out walking together and his details were checked on the police national computer.
Mr Self, an enthusiastic rambler, and his son set off in July from London to Whitby, north Yorkshire, on their walking holiday.
He described the episode as "absurd and offensive".
"Can there be a more disturbing parable of the Britain we have become?"
"No Englishman enjoying a ramble with his son should face examination by police at the roadside on suspicion of being a sexual predator," he wrote in the Mail on Sunday.
A security guard called police after refusing them access to grounds for a short-cut.

Wearing full rambling gear and with his son carrying a walking staff, the incident happened after they had crossed the Humber Bridge after 11 days on foot and were aiming to reach a bed-and -breakfast in North Dalton.
To shave some time off their walk near Beverley, Mr Self asked a security guard at a college if they could cut through the establishment's grounds.
His answer was a firm no.
"The insinuation that I might pose some sort of threat to young people - in a word, that I might be a paedophile - was underscored by his eyes then sliding to my drooping son. He was being absurd and offensive," said Mr Self.
The guard went on to report him to the police who drafted in a specialist female officer from over 40km away "since there was a presumption that a child might have to be taken into custody", added Mr Self.
The writer said the police officer who stopped him had already recognised him from the BBC comedy 'Shooting Stars' but still checked his details with the police database.
"He saw the absurdity of the idea that I would deliberately approach a security guard, in full walking equipment, while abducting a child.
"Far from acting as some sort of local hero, the guard had abused a child himself, in particular by exposing my son to the spectacle of his father - who was guilty of nothing - being grilled by the police on the roadside as if he were engaged in a perverse activity."
The father-of-four said he did not want the security guard punished, but wanted an apology.
None was forthcoming, with the school saying the guard had a second encounter with Mr Self and his son in which he overheard them talking about walking to North Dalton, so called the police out of "concern" knowing how far it was.
Mr Self added: "Of course, whether or not this is true, it was contradicted by what the policeman had told me - and I know who I'm more inclined to believe."

tldr - famous author profiled as a paedophile for going rambling with his son. UK police overreact at the chance to make a paedo bust.

Disgusting behaviour. How is this different to racial profiling for example. Stopped basically because he's male. The sad thing is the security guard in the report will likely think has some kind of hero when he probably should be reprimanded for being a dick

The police don't exactly look too hot here either IMHO

Disgraceful that this can happen

jaffacakesyum

That's ridiculous :eek:

baby and crumble

When I was a kid my dad and I used to go on camping holidays together. Stayed in tents, he taught me fishing, photography, all that jazz. He recently told me he hated them because he wa terrified someone would think he was a paedophile for staying in a tent on his own with his daughter. That would be 20-25 years ago so it's not a new phenomenon...

Seachmall

Someone reported someone who they believed to be a paedophile with a child to the police. Obviously the police were going to enquire further.

The security guard is the one jumping to conclusions and being a prat. No problem with how the police handled the situation tbh. They didn't profile, they followed up on a report made.

yoloc

If that was me id have told the police to go fcuk. As for this incident , the media are to blame for sh1te like this

Frosty McSnowballs

It's shocking alright.

Sure I can't even buy a happy meal without feeling guilty. Fair enough, it's for the kids locked in my shed...

...but ffs, I shouldn't be getting filthies off the cashier.

hatrickpatrick

"Eek! A male" - Wall Street Journal article from a few years ago
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576073752925629440.html
Perfect summary of the miserable road society is going down. Honestly, if a kid approached me for any reason in public I'd think very carefully before being friendly or engaging with him or her at all, and that's a real shame. When I was a kid, every friendly male adult you'd meet wasn't automatically regarded as a threat.

Sunnyisland

Will self...thats a mad name to be calling anyone.

KKkitty

The poor man It's awful that he couldn't spend some time with his son without that crap.

tritium

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

"Eek! A male" - Wall Street Journal article from a few years ago
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576073752925629440.html
Perfect summary of the miserable road society is going down. Honestly, if a kid approached me for any reason in public I'd think very carefully before being friendly or engaging with him or her at all, and that's a real shame. When I was a kid, every friendly male adult you'd meet wasn't automatically regarded as a threat.

Great article, the last line sums things up beautifully

Boombastic

Wasn't it the security guard at a college the raised the alarm which freed Jaycee lee Duggard?

NuckingFacker

Another incident of self abuse by the british cops.

Victor

tritium wrote: »

tldr - English police profiling a famous author as a paedophile for going rambling with his son

Did you read what you quoted? the problem appears to be the security guard, not the police.

RachaelVO

baby and crumble wrote: »

When I was a kid my dad and I used to go on camping holidays together. Stayed in tents, he taught me fishing, photography, all that jazz. He recently told me he hated them because he wa terrified someone would think he was a paedophile for staying in a tent on his own with his daughter. That would be 20-25 years ago so it's not a new phenomenon...

Yep, it's terrible that a father can't bond with his child.

I remember my mam telling me that years ago (I'd say the 60s) there was a guy who lived near her who worked in a biscuit factory. On a friday he'd be given bags of broken biscuits to bring home and he'd give them out to all the kids on his street. His father had to take him aside to tell him to stop doing it cos people were talking. It broke his heart, cos he meant absolutely nothing by it, just giving out a few broken biccies.

tritium

Victor wrote: »

Did you read what you quoted? the problem appears to be the security guard, not the police.

Victor, if you take the time to read my op you'll see that the bulk of my opprobrium is reserved for the security guard. I do feel that the police, while they had to respond should have handled this differently though. Despatching an officer from 40milesaway on the presumption that they'll have to detain a child is overkill and poor use of resources, a local cop could easily have made the initial enquiry.

While there is a wider societal issue here, do you honestly believe that the same response would have occurred if the boy had been walking with his mother rather than his father? I'd suggest the first question may have been "is this your son', show Id and off you go. Checking a national database and dispatching special PCs from other areas is more akin to CSI new York.

It may also have been helpful to retrospectively have an official chat with the security guard about the difference between grounds for suspicion and wasting police time, and how each of these are viewed....

Edit: I'll concede my tldr summary was rushed and didn't have enough depth, hopefully my edit is more to your liking

Zen65

When young Jamie Bolger was killed by those two boys questions were asked as to why nobody approached them and questioned what they were at while they were leading him away from his mum. On the face of it, what we're seeing here in the OP is that somebody saw something they thought looked suspicious and reacted by phoning the police. Once they had been notified of a "suspicious activity" the police would appear to have done the right thing by checking. I think that consulting the national database was correct, as they have to be able to say they investigated the report appropriately and thoroughly.

Yes, it's a pain that a man and his son out for a walk raises "paedophile" alarms in some people's heads even if their actions are not inappropriate. Security guards have boring jobs so they can sometimes react to issues when wiser people would not. Frankly, if one paedophile was stopped from abusing a kid by this sort of thing then I don't know why we make a fuss about it.

Inactivity by society is an equal, if not greater problem. I recall driving down a road near my home one day and seeing a man holding a much younger teen girl by the clothing in a fairly aggressive manner. Nobody on the street was paying attention to them, so I stopped the car and approached them, asking him in a polite way to explain his actions, and why I found them to be inappropriate. It turns out he was her father and earlier that day she had left home without explanation and refused to contact her family. She wanted to "head out" against the permission of her parents and he had found her and was taking her home. The daughter verified the story. I explained to him why I had intervened, and how I felt about the aggression displayed by him towards her. What struck me was how nobody else on the street had questioned them, despite the fairly suspicious carry on. If that had been an abduction (and it sure looked like it) then people would be holding their hands up asking how it could have happened in broad daylight?

Yes, there is a suspicion cast on all fathers due to the actions of a relatively small number of child molesters, and innocent men will be regarded with suspicion unfairly. I am very much aware of this when I coach a room full of children in my karate classes, and I have to take precautions against any possible accusation, which can be a real headache. At the end of the day, if today's children are to be kept safer than the children of past generations, then it is a price worth paying.

Let's keep our indignation for when it's deserved!


Z

Femme_Fatale

Yeh but if he was with his mother there more than likely wouldn't be any concerns, so demonisation of men is a big part of it.

RachaelVO

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yeh but if he was with his mother there more than likely wouldn't be any concerns, so demonisation of men is a big part of it.

Odd to see sexism working that way, cos that's pretty much what it is...

Zen65

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yeh but if he was with his mother there more than likely wouldn't be any concerns, so demonisation of men is a big part of it.

True, it's gender profiling. Myra Hindleys are relatively rare though.

Z

tritium

Zen65 wrote: »

When young Jamie Bolger was killed by those two boys questions were asked as to why nobody approached them and questioned what they were at while they were leading him away from his mum. On the face of it, what we're seeing here in the OP is that somebody saw something they thought looked suspicious and reacted by phoning the police. Once they had been notified of a "suspicious activity" the police would appear to have done the right thing by checking. I think that consulting the national database was correct, as they have to be able to say they investigated the report appropriately and thoroughly.

Yes, it's a pain that a man and his son out for a walk raises "paedophile" alarms in some people's heads even if their actions are not inappropriate. Security guards have boring jobs so they can sometimes react to issues when wiser people would not. Frankly, if one paedophile was stopped from abusing a kid by this sort of thing then I don't know why we make a fuss about it.

Inactivity by society is an equal, if not greater problem. I recall driving down a road near my home one day and seeing a man holding a much younger teen girl by the clothing in a fairly aggressive manner. Nobody on the street was paying attention to them, so I stopped the car and approached them, asking him in a polite way to explain his actions, and why I found them to be inappropriate. It turns out he was her father and earlier that day she had left home without explanation and refused to contact her family. She wanted to "head out" against the permission of her parents and he had found her and was taking her home. The daughter verified the story. I explained to him why I had intervened, and how I felt about the aggression displayed by him towards her. What struck me was how nobody else on the street had questioned them, despite the fairly suspicious carry on. If that had been an abduction (and it sure looked like it) then people would be holding their hands up asking how it could have happened in broad daylight?

Yes, there is a suspicion cast on all fathers due to the actions of a relatively small number of child molesters, and innocent men will be regarded with suspicion unfairly. I am very much aware of this when I coach a room full of children in my karate classes, and I have to take precautions against any possible accusation, which can be a real headache. At the end of the day, if today's children are to be kept safer than the children of past generations, then it is a price worth paying.

Let's keep our indignation for when it's deserved!


Z

With respect, this Argument if "if we can save one then its OK" gets trotted out regularly as if its perfectly reasonable. Its not!

Would racial profiling be OK because it might prevent one rape? How about internment? Definitely prevented a few bombings so surely that's OK?

You cant Presume the guilt if a whole sector of society and argue its for the greater good, that's just sick

Artful_Badger

Could have been worse, he could have been stuck down a hole....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_a1wxqloEs

Addle

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yeh but if he was with his mother there more than likely wouldn't be any concerns, so demonisation of men is a big part of it.

I agree and I understand why Self is so put out, but was part of the concern not the length of the journey and the effect on an already tired child?

Artful_Badger

Addle wrote: »

I agree and I understand why Self is so put out, but was part of the concern not the length of the journey and the effect on an already tired child?

Doesnt seem to be, seems to be that the security guard was concerned that what Self was at was suspicious and was worried that he abducted the child or something. Which is why the police drafted in someone to take the child if necessary. They wouldnt have done that out of concern that a tired child was going on a long walk.

Senna

A story about nothing, security guard did over react, police have to investigate a claim and procedure for a possible kidnap may require that officer to come from 40 miles (or where ever they maybe). The police would then have to verify who the kid was, they cant just say "sure your off the telly, go on ahead".

And in fairness, Self does look like a weirdo.

Femme_Fatale

Senna wrote: »

And in fairness, Self does look like a weirdo.

Yes, the way his facial features are naturally arranged means he looks like a weirdo.

Christ alive.

Folks, here is an example of the kind of attitude that causes demonisation of men in these kinds of scenarios.

Karl Stein

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRRw1ERj2Gc

Podge_irl

Zen65 wrote: »

Frankly, if one paedophile was stopped from abusing a kid by this sort of thing then I don't know why we make a fuss about it.

Except that's not true. Because there is a societal cost to this kind of constant suspicion.

More and more parents don't let their kids out to play any more because of this kind of scaremongering over something that frankly isn't that big a problem. This is contributing to the childhood obesity problem - which is killing more people then any predators ever have and not by a small margin.

GalwayGuy2

Folks, here is an example of the kind of attitude that causes demonisation of men in these kinds of scenarios.

Hmmm, what else do you think is causing it?

tritium

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Hmmm, what else do you think is causing it?

I give up, what is causing it?

Guy:Incognito

tritium wrote: »

With respect, this Argument if "if we can save one then its OK" gets trotted out regularly as if its perfectly reasonable. Its not!

As long as a child that's abused/killed doesn't end up being your son though yeah? Or would you be happy that a man that abducted your son was free to walk him home in public without being harassed.

Addle

OT, but I have never heard of anyone undertaking such long walks.
I know it's a healthy and cheap means of travel, but is it not also a bit odd?

Podge_irl

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

As long as a child that's abused/killed doesn't end up being your son though yeah? Or would you be happy that a man that abducted your son was free to walk him home in public without being harassed.

More kids get killed in car accidents then by paedophiles.

I trust you never drive your kids anywhere. Cause if the inconvenience of walking everywhere saves just one child...

Witcher

Addle wrote: »

OT, but I have never heard of anyone undertaking such long walks.
I know it's a healthy and cheap means of travel, but is it not also a bit odd?

You've never heard of a walking holiday?

Just because you've never heard of something doesn't mark it as 'odd'.

titan18

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

As long as a child that's abused/killed doesn't end up being your son though yeah? Or would you be happy that a man that abducted your son was free to walk him home in public without being harassed.

That's just stupid though. Should we stop everyone cos there's a chance they'll commit a crime. Stop people getting into cars as they could kill someone? Follow people walking into shops incase they steal anything?

Addle

Blay wrote: »

You've never heard of a walking holiday?

Just because you've never heard of something doesn't mark it as 'odd'.

I've taken long walks while on holidays, but I've never walked hundreds of miles to get to my accommodation.

Guy:Incognito

Podge_irl wrote: »

More kids get killed in car accidents then by paedophiles.

I trust you never drive your kids anywhere. Cause if the inconvenience of walking everywhere saves just one child...

ah sure let the peados have at it so.

porsche959

Senna wrote: »

A story about nothing, security guard did over react, police have to investigate a claim and procedure for a possible kidnap may require that officer to come from 40 miles (or where ever they maybe). The police would then have to verify who the kid was, they cant just say "sure your off the telly, go on ahead".

And in fairness, Self does look like a weirdo.

He's also a reformed junkie (by his own admission).

I have no criticisms of the authorities in this particular instance.

Guy:Incognito

titan18 wrote: »

That's just stupid though. Should we stop everyone cos there's a chance they'll commit a crime. Stop people getting into cars as they could kill someone? Follow people walking into shops incase they steal anything?

If your child went missing and someone reported a strange guy with a kid in the town but the police said , "sure that's probably some guy with his kid, leave him be" , presumably youd be grand with that?

A security guard reported it and the police followed it up, I really don't see what the police did wrong. I sure as **** wouldn't want to be the cop that took the call then passed it off if a kid wound up dead.

tritium

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

As long as a child that's abused/killed doesn't end up being your son though yeah? Or would you be happy that a man that abducted your son was free to walk him home in public without being harassed.

Same question I've asked another poster. Are You happy to support racial profiling and internment on the same basic argument?

diomed

Addle wrote: »

OT, but I have never heard of anyone undertaking such long walks.
I know it's a healthy and cheap means of travel, but is it not also a bit odd?

To the modern couch potato any physical activity appears odd.

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Podge_irl

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

ah sure let the peados have at it so.

Yeah, cause that's obviously what I'm suggesting. In fact lets set up some kind of kiddie shop where the paedos can drop in and pick up whoever they want. It will make the whole thing more streamlined. Maybe we can even tax it!

This whole "someone think of the children" crap just doesn't help anyone. Like I said, obesity is killing people yet that is one of unintended outcomes of this scaremongering. Its a far, far bigger problem. Not allowing men near children isn't helping their development. Making children constantly afraid of adults isn't helping anyone. The number of children abducted or killed by these predators is ultimately minuscule. Yes, every kids death is a tragedy, but massive overreactions to them are not just not helping, they are causing damage.

Podge_irl

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If your child went missing and someone reported a strange guy with a kid in the town but the police said , "sure that's probably some guy with his kid, leave him be" , presumably youd be grand with that?.

If my child went missing I would want the police to shut down the entire city and go house by house to find them.

There are some pretty good reasons this doesn't happen though.

titan18

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If your child went missing and someone reported a strange guy with a kid in the town but the police said , "sure that's probably some guy with his kid, leave him be" , presumably youd be grand with that?

A security guard reported it and the police followed it up, I really don't see what the police did wrong. I sure as **** wouldn't want to be the cop that took the call then passed it off if a kid wound up dead.

If the child is screaming and trying to get away, then I'd hope someone would step in, even if it's just the child having a tantrum, it could be dodgy. If a man and child are walking calmly along and everything seems fine with it, then no, I don't see why that should have people screaming paedo. As long as children are taught about what to do in those situations, try and alert any other people around, that's the best you can do, men shouldn't be profiled as all being suspicious if seen with a child

GalwayGuy2

I give up, what is causing it?

To be honest, I was just curious if Femme had any other suggestions as to what's causing it.

I think a lot of the paranoia has always been here *, but the scandals by the priests, and various scaremongering, has definitely increased it.

*: Eg: If a man was gay then he was seen to be more likely to turn into a pedophile.

EDIT:

As long as children are taught about what to do in those situations, try and alert any other people around, that's the best you can do, men shouldn't be profiled as all being suspicious if seen with a child

A child would quickly learn that if they throw a tantrum in a store, then a father will just give in so people won't come up and ask him what's going on. They are children after all, and they definitely wouldn't understand how serious doing that would be.

titan18

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

To be honest, I was just curious if Femme had any other suggestions as to what's causing it.

I think a lot of the paranoia has always been here *, but the scandals by the priests, and various scaremongering, has definitely increased it.

*: Eg: If a man was gay then he was seen to be more likely to turn into a pedophile.

EDIT:



A child would quickly learn that if they throw a tantrum in a store, then a father will just give in so people won't come up and ask him what's going on. They are children after all, and they definitely wouldn't understand how serious doing that would be.

Depends on age, at younger ages, a child could definitely do that, but from the story, it was an 11 year old with the guy. How often would an 11 year old throw a tantrum in public just cos he's not getting a pack of sweets or something. Also, can depend on the child aswell.

Iwannahurl

There's a lot of paranoia around these days. For some reason many people seem to believe stranger danger is far more serious than, say, the risks associated with traffic.

I was going to the beach one day with the kids, and as children are wont to do they ran on ahead to get there as soon as they possibly could. I was a short distance behind, and for a few seconds I couldn't see the youngest, as she was out of sight down a ramp leading to the strand. I called out to her older sibling to ask where she was (to ensure she hadn't gone in the wrong direction) and as I did so I heard a woman passing by say loudly to her friend "why do people have children if they can't look after them?"

On another occasion we, ie the entire family, were walking up a busy pedestrian street on a Saturday. There were loads of shoppers and tourists about, as well as quite a few buskers. The eldest child walked perhaps 20 metres ahead, still in sight, and paused to enjoy one of the buskers. He was there literally ten seconds when a woman stopped and asked him where his mother was.

This in a city where many people blithely drive up on the footpaths beside us as my child walks or cycles to school...

Czarcasm

Celebrity gets his tits in a twist because people gave a shìt that his child might be in danger, and he manages to make it all about himself and accuse them of child abuse.

Hyperbollicks much?


I imagine if he hadn't acted like such an indignant self-entitled prick and used his own common sense instead, none of this storm in a teacup would've been blown out of proportion and he could've carried on his rambling, I mean, walking.

His son probably won't live that one down for a while- "My old man's a tit!".

Canis Lupus

Was down by the beach one day and a little girl was standing there bawling, obviously had lost her parents. Lots of people were ignoring her and just as I was about to go up to her to help a woman came along and asked the girl if she was alright etc.

The relief I felt wasn't from not having to deal with finding her parents but that as a male I wouldn't have to approach an obviously lost child in case of what others might think.

It's a f*cked up world we live in...

clairefontaine

Recently there was an amber alert in my area for a man who has abducted a 16 year old girl after he set her mother and little brothers house on fire.

They described him and the car he was driving.

I'm sure plenty of men who had teenage girls with them were looked at funny in those few days.

When a warning is issued and a profile given, people,in that profile will get funny looks.

Czarcasm

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Was down by the beach one day and a little girl was standing there bawling, obviously had lost her parents. Lots of people were ignoring her and just as I was about to go up to her to help a woman came along and asked the girl if she was alright etc.

The relief I felt wasn't from not having to deal with finding her parents but that as a male I wouldn't have to approach an obviously lost child in case of what others might think.

It's a f*cked up world we live in...

That right there Canis is no reason to say everyone else is the problem when clearly the problem was your own issue. Of course, it's a perfectly understandable reaction, but you've already over-rode your natural instinct to want to help someone you see in need of help. You just have to go with your gut sometimes and ignore the looks of strangers.

A vulnerable person is clearly more important to you than the looks of strangers, so don't buy into the whole "male profiling" by ignoring your natural instinct for the sake of what other people might think. That's how the issue perpetuates itself. YOU know you're not a danger to the child, anyone else that stood around and didn't help the child until you went over to help them, you can always tell them to make themselves useful and do indeed call a member of staff or the Gardai.

cursai

Did they arrest him? Beat him up? Dont tell me that god forbid they TALKED to him!:O
Outrage. Did he go home and cry over his latte?