"Should we care if Google reads our emails?"

Dostoevsky

Surprisingly I can't see this on Boards.ie yet.

In yesterday's Irish Times Karlin Lillington highlighted the radical breaches of our privacy which Google is engaged in at the moment. Even if you have ADHD, her article should be required reading for anybody who's concerned with privacy and security online.

"Should we care if Google reads our emails?"

Opinion: Google automatically parses your private emails to better target you with ads. This act is the subject of a US class action...

"According to a recent American court filing by Google lawyers, disclosed by consumer advocacy group Consumer Watchdog, Google says those who send email to users of web email services such as Gmail have no right to expect that email content will not be examined by a third – in this case, automated – party."


Google's response:

In its filing in response to a consumer class-action lawsuit that states Google routinely violates user privacy, the company argues, “Just as a sender of a letter to a business colleague cannot be surprised that the recipient’s assistant opens the letter, people who use web-based email today cannot be surprised if their communications are processed by the recipient’s [email] provider in the course of delivery.[/email]”

Wtf. Wtf. Wtf.

Lillington then goes on to ask would we accept if An Post has a right to open our post in order to send us advertisements? No, we wouldn't. Is the "free" service of gmail worth this breach of your privacy? What email service are people using to protect their data and details of business deals? I hope the IDA and others aren't using anything connected with gmail.

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I'm getting tired of Google trying to link my gmail account to my entire online presence. If you don't link, they repeatedly come up with a notice on my android phone, iPad and laptop. I want to keep everything separate and not have a trail that makes me a target for ridiculous ads and much else (at best, the ads seem to be a couple of months after my Google search). What email account would allow me to avoid all this Google spam that gmail brings on me? Is there any alternative search engine to Google which avoids such linkages?

srsly78

Just make a dummy gmail account for android, then install adblock. We only put up with Google because their products are much better than the competitors (and given away for "free").

RachaelVO

Don't suppose anyone is entirely surprised... everything most people do is there for all to see, so why should we be surprised that google parse our email? It's a free service so they make money with ads.

Given what we've seen coming out of the states in the last year, Mr Orwell wasn't too far removed with 1984.

tigger123

Ads by Google aren't exactly intrusive. The worst thing that could happen is that someone tries to sell me something I might actually want. Not really bothered with them scanning my emails.

Dostoevsky

tigger123 wrote: »

Not really bothered with them scanning my emails.

Do you mind me asking, why does this not bother you? I've a "joke" hotmail account from about 1997 which I give when I'm filling in forms etc. There's nothing personal there. My gmail is/has been my main account, however, so I'm much more concerned and now looking for an alternative.

tigger123

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Do you mind me asking, why does this not bother you? I've a "joke" hotmail account from about 1997 which I give when I'm filling in forms etc. There's nothing personal there. My gmail is/has been my main account, however, so I'm much more concerned and now looking for an alternative.

Because rightly or wrongly I trust Google, and their ethos. I don't expect them to do anything malicious with the information, so if they want to scan my mails to better target ads I've no issue with it.

hansfrei

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUdG25p4rZY&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Local people from California formed an action group against this kind of spying. The million square foot NSA surveillance centre, its origins and laws are discussed in that video.

Amirani

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Do you mind me asking, why does this not bother you? I've a "joke" hotmail account from about 1997 which I give when I'm filling in forms etc. There's nothing personal there. My gmail is/has been my main account, however, so I'm much more concerned and now looking for an alternative.

Outlook doesn't scan emails for ads. There is still privacy concerns though obviously.

Dostoevsky

tigger123 wrote: »

Because rightly or wrongly I trust Google, and their ethos. I don't expect them to do anything malicious with the information, so if they want to scan my mails to better target ads I've no issue with it.

Fair enough. Can you see this precedent of allowing a private commercially-motivated company to access your private email leading to much more significant privacy problems for society down the road?

Cookie_Monster

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Fair enough. Can you see this precedent of allowing a private commercially-motivated company to access your private email leading to much more significant privacy problems for society down the road?

As opposed to the UK or US governments?

The Backwards Man

Doesn't bother me. If you don't like it don't use it.

Dostoevsky

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

As opposed to the UK or US governments?

For the purposes of this thread, yes.

ted1

If your not paying for the product you are the priduct

Cienciano

Couldnt give a rats ass tbh. I never intentionally clicked on an internet ad in my life and I doubt I ever will

tigger123

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Fair enough. Can you see this precedent of allowing a private commercially-motivated company to access your private email leading to much more significant privacy problems for society down the road?

But its not my email, its their service, and I'm electing to use it. If its part of their terms and conditions and I disagree with it (which I don't) then I don't have to use their service. Anyway, there's nothing in my emails which I have an issue with them scanning. And its anonymous.

ScumLord

If Google are nice enough to go through my emails for spam and viruses for free then they can throw in the odd ad too.

hatrickpatrick

If it's automated I don't particularly care, no human is reading them and I've consented to them being stored on Google's servers.
Comparisons to the NSA or GCHQ are moronic. I have not consented to them having my data and I don't care if they'll never read it, I'm not ok with them having access to it in the first place, or any government for that matter. Commercial espionage and political espionage are two different things - for an example closer to home, Google using Mick Wallace's driving offenses to target him with anti speed camera gadget ads and a minister using it to embarrass him in parliament are completely different situations, and anyone with a brain stem should be able to see why commercial spying using automated systems is far less of a big deal than political / governmental agencies having access to private information.

CrazyRabbit

Almost all providers scan emails to auto-filter out spam. They've been doing that for a very long time. I don't see how this is different.

I would however hope that only the 'system' can read the mails and not individual people in the company.

BeerWolf

I got nothing to hide, so meh.

LeinsterDub

This has been in Gmail since practically day one . Why the sudden shock?

Tiddlypeeps

Nobody is forcing you to use Gmail. There are other providers you can go with if you disagree with being target for advertising in that way. If you don't want anybody scanning your emails at all then you can set up your own email, it's really not that difficult anyone can do it. So it's not like you don't have a choice.

Google have always been open about this too, it's not like it's been a well kept secret for decades. They have done this from day one.

I don't mind it at all. I've had useful ads served at me because of this practice. I trust them not to abuse this system so I will continue to use Gmail and Google products until they give me reason to revoke that trust.

NiallSparky wrote: »

Outlook doesn't scan emails for ads. There is still privacy concerns though obviously.

Isn't outlook just a client?

BeerWolf

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Isn't outlook just a client?

Get with the times;

Outlook‎ has replaced Hotmail.

Dravokivich

I don't get why it's such a shock now. It was even seen as a bonus when GMAIL started up that the majority of advertisements would be targeted by keywords in your e-mails. This is a lot better for Google and the user, as it means the ads displayed to them, are going to have a higher hit rate, as it's more likely to be an item of interest.

It's much better than the likes of facebook. Where their advertisements links the Advertiser directly with your account details any time you like a page or use a game through it.

Tiddlypeeps

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's much better than the likes of facebook. Where their advertisements links the Advertiser directly with your account details any time you like a page or use a game through it.

I did some Facebook dev stuff recently and it's shocking the amount of personal info you can get from a person just from having them open your app or like your page.

languagenerd

I'm not too bothered about an automated program scanning my mail for keywords, esp if there are no Google employees reading it. I never click Internet ads anyway, so it's not like they're getting much from me (other than brand awareness I guess). That said, I wouldn't like the idea of An Post opening my letters to put them through a scanner and include relevant ads in the envelope! Not sure what the difference is really. Maybe I'm just a hypocrite :P

What does bother me, though, is the precedent it sets. We're already sharing far more about ourselves online than ever before and I think programs like this will get far more advanced in the future. Without wanting to sound like a conspiracy nut, I think that there'll be no such thing as privacy in the future (well, in the context of communications - I don't mean cameras in bathrooms :pac:) and I hate the idea of these programs/websites falling into the wrong hands. If Facebook or Google was ever hacked, those hackers would have so much information about us and our communications and who knows what they could do with it.

GorillaRising

I know people say 'sure what harm' etc, but it's the ethics of what Google are doing.

I understand why they do it, but should they?

There's going to be ads on the maps app now too.

I just find them annoying myself.

Having said that, I do use Gmail because it's not something I feel strongly about, but I get why people might be concerned.

You can always use Google services without gmail though - set up a new outlook account for example, create an alias and use that as your Google account! Sorted.

DubVelo

tigger123 wrote: »

Because rightly or wrongly I trust Google, and their ethos. I don't expect them to do anything malicious with the information, so if they want to scan my mails to better target ads I've no issue with it.

Eh... You haven't read the papers this year have you?

Freddy Smelly

add this line into your gmail signature to say "i like atari jaguars"

see if you get targeted by atari ads

Sh1tbag OToole

Stopped using gmail years ago and run my own email server. No email will be secure though even PGP can be cracked by the NSA without much trouble I reckon.

Googles biggest privacy invasion isnt scanning emails but their tie-ins with governments to hand over information on suspected law breakers. They are trying to make everyone much more dependent on their other services as well so they will have more different types of data to mine. Like my phone would much rather do everything via google, first few days I had it I saw nothing but nag screens for google account.

Google CEO Eric Schmidt has been known not to regard privacy very highly either..

Wibbs

Don't use gmail, never will. I quite simply don't trust the company.

RoyalMarine

Wibbs wrote: »

Don't use gmail, never will. I quite simply don't trust the company.

Is there anything in particular you don't trust about Google?

I'm just curious.

cherryghost

NSA... don't trust anyone.

Wibbs

RoyalMarine wrote: »

Is there anything in particular you don't trust about Google?

I'm just curious.

In many ways they "own" the internet as far as most users are concerned and that's just too much power in the hands of one company. Especially when you read how the higher ups in the company feel about privacy. As they move from Google the search engine, to Google the all encompassing product across the board that worries me even more. Larry Page has already said this is the companies future. Now to achieve this they'll have to take what they do already with searches tailored to individuals online history and ramp that up massively across all online interactions and in the process they'll start to know more and more about individuals in order to tailor answers for them. I really don't like the idea of that kinda future in the hands of one company.

Let's look at their recent record:

Had to pay half a billion quid to avoid prosecution by the US gov over illegal medical advertisements
Google bypassed default privacy settings in the iphone browser Safari
Stole another companies user database

Take a peek behind the mentality of it's higher ups. Larry Page has said “Why are people so focused on keeping their medical history private”? Yea to a geek having all this data out there is "neat", meanwhile in the real world... These eejits even want t extend google search into genetic testing to build DNA databases. That's well scary shít.

Then again like facebook, it's not their fault, people are just so quick to give up all their info. They/we may all live to regret that.

Think about what Google(and Facebook) may know about you already if you've bought into the whole package.

They know what you read, watch and write(this thread sums up the latter). Who your friends are, where you go on the interwebs, where you live(even have a pic of your gaff), what genetic problems you may have, where you like to eat and drink. *shudder*

Dravokivich

Wibbs wrote: »

They know what you read, watch and write(this thread sums up the latter). Who your friends are, where you go on the interwebs, where you live(even have a pic of your gaff), what genetic problems you may have, where you like to eat and drink. *shudder*

This is one of the worst things ever as far as I'm concerned. It started before Google became the beast that it is. But there are so many websites now that invite you to create an account with your Google ID, Yahoo Acc, Facebook Acc, Linked In, Twitter... So it can load up your contacts lists. And ask you to "invite" any who aren't signed up, or associate your account to any who already are.

Eh... no thanks. I just wanted to take a look and see what this was.

Must say, it's great none of the porno sites get involved in that madness.

Shiny

I treat anything I put on the internet as something that potentially anyone could see. If I was handling sensitive data (think journalist, freedom fighter, hacker, etc..) then I would take steps to encrypt the information I was sending.

I read what Wibbs is saying and I suppose I don't appreciate that my personal information should also be regarded as sensitive data. I imagine if there was ever a world war, the fist step would be to hijack say google/facebook data and use their information to recruit/conscript/eliminate specialists who can develop weapons.

Dravokivich

Shiny wrote: »

I read what Wibbs is saying and I suppose I don't appreciate that my personal information should also be regarded as sensitive data. I imagine if there was ever a world war, the fist step would be to hijack say google/facebook data and use their information to recruit/conscript/eliminate specialists who can develop weapons.

How'd you think the terminator was able to identify John's friends in Terminator3? It was clearly his facebook friends list that they used.

Setun

DubVelo wrote: »

Eh... You haven't read the papers this year have you?

Bingo! For anybody who has been offline for the last few months, all the major 'free' web services are compliant with the NSA's extra-judicial surveillance programmes (except twitter, afaik!)

While I think that anybody who has reason to be cautious will simply avoid using third-party services as much as possible, if not completely, it's interesting to consider the oft-repeated general public reaction "I have nothing to hide". Probably true, in its current context. What is happening though is that Google are increasing their cache of data, and also honing their abilities to target you with increasing specificity. Google, facebook et al are masters at judging a balance between user-convenience and data collection - their TOS states that, by agreeing to the current terms, you also agree to all future iterations of the TOS. So their terms - and thus their liberties with your data - can shift, outside of what you either feel comfortable with or what you initially signed up for. By then though, they already have your cache, and the inconvenience and confusion of finding another reliable service on their side.

Setun

Shiny wrote: »

I imagine if there was ever a world war, the fist step would be to hijack say google/facebook data and use their information to recruit/conscript/eliminate specialists who can develop weapons.

Having spoken to a syrian activist who managed to escape the country recently, this is pretty much what is going on there at the moment. If they take in one person involved in anti-governmental activities, they very quickly have a social network of suspects next in line for questioning.

Red Nissan

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Surprisingly I can't see this on Boards.ie yet.

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I'm getting tired of Google trying to link my gmail account to my entire online presence.

Absolutely agree, Google is not your friend, it's a monster that looks benign. It has, Youtube, Gmail, Chrome, Sketch Up, Google Search, Google Maps and many more to watch out for.

I've switched to GMX mail recently and opened a Vimeo account. I'm also surfing under various cloaking systems and so forth.

Google is the best, but like you, I like to chat here and have an identity. My Youtube account is closed because Google shut it down when I refused to join Google Plus. I have a channel for my various interests and GoogleTube insisted on all my ids being merged.

Far too much of my life is in Google and I don't believe it's just for showing me an ad, my adblocker programmes does a great job in defeating them anyway.

I intend to join private VPN networks and pay for privacy, it's seemingly a big thing in the US especially as a few innocent people got interviewed by security forces in the states and the info came from Google.

jaykay12

Setun wrote: »

.....they very quickly have a social network of suspects next in line for questioning.

It's frightening.
And the "I have nothing to hide" brigade simply don't foresee the potential implications for such a database, which essentially has the ability, if required by the owners (eg NSA) to create an entire picture of a person's online presence, search history. They can then blackmail, smear, whatever they want to discredit political figures, commercial rivals, dissenters........it seems a little dystopic, but why else are they doing it? Terrorism??!?! Hardly.

It's an insurance against potential future dissent.

Four years ago, I'd have been labelled another conspiracy theory loon. What happens when conspiracy becomes fact (as has happened with the Snowden releases)? The Govts involved panic. Arrest Journalists. Force a President's plane to divert. Up the threat level to orange.

This is happening.

Google aren't to blame. But they're far from innocent.

sbsquarepants

Shiny wrote: »

I treat anything I put on the internet as something that potentially anyone could see. If I was handling sensitive data (think journalist, freedom fighter, hacker, etc..) then I would take steps to encrypt the information I was sending.
.

This is the way i look at it. If you're going to put anything on the internet, be damn sure you'd be happy for every tom, dick and harry to see it because odds are they will. The internet never forgets!!
Picture 40 years from now, a succesfull business woman throws her hat in the ring and runs for president of Ireland only to be asked "didn't you suck a whole load of cocks in slane once?" This shít lasts forever, there is no going back!

Tiddlypeeps

I don't think there are many people here touting "I've nothing to hide", I'm certainly not anyway. I just don't think it's a bid deal because any information they have is information I've chosen to give them. The same with Facebook, all the outrage of the privacy issues are overblown in my opinion because they will only every have information on you that you have chosen to give to them. You don't have to use their services.

Christ the Redeemer

I personally do not give a ****. Though, if I had political aspirations I'd be nervous about anything I might have said over the years being used against me to either control me or ruin me.

stoneill

Can you imagine the poor b'stard in the CIA or NSA that has to look through all those e-mails with pictures of mickeys just to see if one of them contains the word bomb! Or is that just my e-mail like that.

ScumLord

Wibbs wrote: »

In many ways they "own" the internet as far as most users are concerned and that's just too much power in the hands of one company.

They're only in that position because they supply the best product though. It's not like they waged war or used underhanded corporate espionage (as far as I know) or other illegal activities to falsely put themselves at the top. They have the best service, that's mostly down to the data mining they do.

Especially when you read how the higher ups in the company feel about privacy. As they move from Google the search engine, to Google the all encompassing product across the board that worries me even more.

The thing is I can see the advantage of what they're doing, I can see the value of having all information easily accessible to everyone and anyone that wants it. I think the benefits of what google are doing could be immense in ways I can't fully understand. They're basically making a digital record of humanity.

These eejits even want t extend google search into genetic testing to build DNA databases. That's well scary shít.

Why should this information be restricted though? I've seen it recently with the bio punk movement. These are small labs open to whoever wants to use them to do whatever experiments they may want to do. The establishment is accusing these places of being centers for terrorism saying they could be making bioweapons but I see it as a good thing. This kind of information shouldn't be restricted to governments and corporations. Data is a resource now, as is biology. People should be learning everything they can about those resources because they will be very important in the future, the cats out of the bag at this stage so the more people that know how these things work the better so that they can't be abused by any smaller groups. The thing about google is that it's a service, when google finds data it sends it out to everyone that wants it.

They know what you read, watch and write(this thread sums up the latter). Who your friends are, where you go on the interwebs, where you live(even have a pic of your gaff), what genetic problems you may have, where you like to eat and drink. *shudder*

You say "they" and it conjures up an image of guys in a lab watching a screen that's showing a feed from your bathroom while you take a dump. Each individual is more or less lost in the sea of information, it would be as hard for the layperson to find an individual in that sea of data as it would be to find them in the real world. Maybe even harder.

DubVelo

jaykay12 wrote: »

It's frightening.
And the "I have nothing to hide" brigade simply don't foresee the potential implications for such a database, which essentially has the ability, if required by the owners (eg NSA) to create an entire picture of a person's online presence, search history. They can then blackmail, smear, whatever they want to discredit political figures, commercial rivals, dissenters........it seems a little dystopic, but why else are they doing it? Terrorism??!?! Hardly.

It's an insurance against potential future dissent.

Four years ago, I'd have been labelled another conspiracy theory loon. What happens when conspiracy becomes fact (as has happened with the Snowden releases)? The Govts involved panic. Arrest Journalists. Force a President's plane to divert. Up the threat level to orange.

This is happening.

Google aren't to blame. But they're far from innocent.

It's not insurance against potential future dissent.

It's a strategy to ensure US commercial and strategic dominance through industrial and political espionage on a vast scale and the influencing of local political and corporate policy in Europe and elsewhere in the US's favour.

Eoin

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I don't think there are many people here touting "I've nothing to hide", I'm certainly not anyway. I just don't think it's a bid deal because any information they have is information I've chosen to give them. The same with Facebook, all the outrage of the privacy issues are overblown in my opinion because they will only every have information on you that you have chosen to give to them.

But the contents of an email from/to you and someone else is not information that someone's deliberately chosen to give them (other than by not reading the legal jargon). It's not even implicitly given to them, like "liking" a particular brand on Facebook.

I don't like the idea that they could potentially track that you bought something from a 3rd party using their checkout service, based on an advert that you clicked which was triggered by the contents of an email from someone who's in your family circle on Google plus - and that you searched for the item twice at home and once at work, while checking youtube for reviews.

True, you don't have to use their services but that's a bit of an easy thing to say. I think people are unaware of what a scary profile they can build up on you - just because they're not Apple or Microsoft and because they have a naff company motto.

There's no harm in people knowing exactly what information they have about you and how they use it.

Mr Benevolent

Couldn't be arsed who reads my emails, I have nothing to hide.

DubVelo

The Americans said PRISM was fine, nothing to worry about, it wasn't for spying on US citizens.
Implying it IS for spying on *all of us* then!

If that wasn't bad enough, Google are now claiming local laws do not apply to them because they're a US company.
This is what's made me lose any remaining trust in Google.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/19/google-privacy-laws-uk-lawsuit

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396809/Google-says-UK-law-power-Outrage-search-giant-bypassing-privacy-settings.html

DubVelo

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

Couldn't be arsed who reads my emails, I have nothing to hide.

So you'd publish all your emails on the internet then? What's your username and password?

hansfrei

You'd swear no-one works for the PRISM. Only computers scan my e-mails my ares.....

Like teh gards don't use pulse to look up the addresses of hot chicks from the Facebook or whatever.


Don't know what PRISM stands for, but pervert has to be one of those words they've initialised