Driver to cyclist

maxamillius

Have recently started cycling to work and admittedly I was one of these I hate cyclists drivers but seeing what I've seen recently I've changed my mind,ya I drivers are a complete and utter joke when it comes to just pulling in and stopping on cycling lanes,
Do you feel safe cycling?just today young woman dies in black rock and also on my way out of town a woman got absolutely milled my a car,bike snapped in 2,luckily she was up and moving,I think people need to wise up both drivers and cyclists,it's not that difficult to live in harmony on the roads

Cienciano

I drive, cycle and ride a motorbike across dublin. Life would be better if everyone had to spend a week or 2 doing each.

Tombo2001

I cycle to work every day. I don't feel safe cycling and at the back of mind all the time is that I could end up on the flat of my back at any moment. Unlike driving, where you can go with the flow, listen to the radio, day dream.....cycling you need full concentration at all times. Any lapse of concentration and you could be goosed. The media/ politician campaign (and sorry for sounding paranoid here) against cyclists in recent months has made it far worse in that I am just waiting for the next driver that starts shouting abuse.

maxamillius

Cienciano wrote: »

I drive, cycle and ride a motorbike across dublin. Life would be better if everyone had to spend a week or 2 doing each.

I agree,I hadn't cycled a bike since I was 15,really changed my perspective,you do see a lot of stupid cyclists still breaking lights etc,but you also get to see the absolutely outrageous driving out of some people aswell!good eye opener

Beasty

Cycling is generally very safe. Today's tragic accident is in the hands of the investigators and until the relevant authorities publish their conclusions is not for discussion here. However the number of cyclist fatalities has dropped in recent years and for the past 2-3 years has averaged 1 or less a month in Ireland at a time when cycling has been on the increase. Yes people still have close calls but serious incidents like today are fortunately very rare. Life is full of risks, but cycling is not one of the major ones

maxamillius

Beasty wrote: »

Cycling is generally very safe. Today's tragic accident is in the hands of the investigators and until the relevant authorities publish their conclusions is not for discussion here. However the number of cyclist fatalities has dropped in recent years and for the past 2-3 years has averaged 1 or less a month in Ireland at a time when cycling has been on the increase. Yes people still have close calls but serious incidents like today are fortunately very rare. Life is full of risks, but cycling is not one of the major ones

Since I started cycling about 4 minths ago I've witnessed 3 traffic stopping accidents in town resulting in cyclists on the ground and bikes mangled,one was on Nassau street and the bike was wrapped around the axel of a taxi!thats a few too many if you ask me

arybvtcw0eolkf

Cienciano wrote: »

I drive, cycle and ride a motorbike across dublin. Life would be better if everyone had to spend a week or 2 doing each.

Like you I cycle, bike and drive across the city and tbh I feel safer cycling than biking but safest (from personal injury) in the car.

My cycle is a 40k round trip, much of it through the city. Once I'm sensible, obey the rules etc I do feel pretty safe from most road users (with the exception being other cyclists and pedestrians).

beauf

Cienciano wrote: »

I drive, cycle and ride a motorbike across dublin. Life would be better if everyone had to spend a week or 2 doing each.

+1

People need to get perspective of the other side.

doozerie

maxamillius wrote: »

Since I started cycling about 4 minths ago I've witnessed 3 traffic stopping accidents in town resulting in cyclists on the ground and bikes mangled,one was on Nassau street and the bike was wrapped around the axel of a taxi!thats a few too many if you ask me

Even one accident is too many, but your experiences are not necessarily representative. They certainly don't tally with mine. I've been commuting by bicycle daily in Dublin for over 20 years (and for years before that elsewhere) and in that time I've seen very few serious accidents involving bicycles. I've seen more accidents between cars only, some of them serious, but I wouldn't take that to mean that driving is inherently dangerous either.

Personally I don't feel in danger on the bike, not unless I find myself near some reckless road user and in that scenario I'd feel vulnerable in a car too. Based on road fatality stats you could argue that being in a car is actually more dangerous.

nak

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Unlike driving, where you can go with the flow, listen to the radio, day dream.....cycling you need full concentration at all times.

?? People day dreaming while driving is part of the problem. Drivers should be concentrating at all times too. I know a lot of the time when I have close calls with drivers, it's because they weren't aware of what was going on around them. At least I now expect it, so can anticipate things a lot better in traffic.

I have been commuting in Dublin for 7 years now and have only seen the aftermath of a couple of minor crashes. My husband worked as a bike courier for most of the time and I think he only got nailed 3 times (quite good going and all minor incidents).

Qualitymark

I normally feel safe, and find most drivers courteous and careful - they treat me like a precious cotton-wool-wrapped newborn baby

There are some real idiots driving, though, and in yesterday's teeming rain I was seriously frightened cycling in Dublin city - cars were going much too fast, and a couple of big four-wheel-drives went much too close to me.

One tip: I signal where I'm going, and try to make eye contact with drivers. I have discovered that if you signal with your hand turned upside down so the *palm* is facing drivers, they're much more liable to see - to notice - it. I think this may be because we grow up with people holding up a palm to stop us, so seeing a palm gives the brain a stronger signal than seeing the back of a cyclist's hand.

Surveyor11

Been back cycling since 2009, so this is year 4 on the bike. Been knocked off twice - thankfully minor enough - once by a complete tool who cut left in front of me into a filling station - 2 flashing rear lights, hi-vis bag cover and he still didn't see me (apparently). The other one was a Coast Guard vehicle - the irony - just at Christchurch.

In the whole, cycling for me is a pretty positive and stress free experience/ I've become a lot more defensive on the bike, will always try and get eye contact, particularly if pulling out from a bus lane and turning right, or at a roundabout, these are probably the two riskiest manoeuvres in my experience. Avoid vehicle blind spots on the left as well and put some effort into road positioning.

Yes, there are plenty of d!cks in cars, vans and taxis, but also plenty of cyclists that have complete disregard for the rules. It's about trying to anticipate the dangers and leaving yourself a plan B to avoid trouble.

Qualitymark

Surveyor11 wrote: »

I've become a lot more defensive on the bike, will always try and get eye contact, particularly if pulling out from a bus lane and turning right, or at a roundabout, these are probably the two riskiest manoeuvres in my experience.

Me too - but the condition of the roads is such that you have to check for 50 feet in front first, to make sure there are no hazards such as potholes or manhole covers before turning to look deep into the driver's eyes. How much better if it were like Holland, where the fleets of cyclists are separate from cars, vans and trucks, and take priority.

Tombo2001

Surveyor11 wrote: »

Been back cycling since 2009, so this is year 4 on the bike. Been knocked off twice - thankfully minor enough - once by a complete tool who cut left in front of me into a filling station - 2 flashing rear lights, hi-vis bag cover and he still didn't see me (apparently). The other one was a Coast Guard vehicle - the irony - just at Christchurch.

In the whole, cycling for me is a pretty positive and stress free experience/ I've become a lot more defensive on the bike, will always try and get eye contact, particularly if pulling out from a bus lane and turning right, or at a roundabout, these are probably the two riskiest manoeuvres in my experience. Avoid vehicle blind spots on the left as well and put some effort into road positioning.

Yes, there are plenty of d!cks in cars, vans and taxis, but also plenty of cyclists that have complete disregard for the rules. It's about trying to anticipate the dangers and leaving yourself a plan B to avoid trouble.

I was knocked over by a Garda car turning left last year......

Surveyor11

Surveyor11 wrote: »

The other one was a Coast Guard vehicle - the irony - just at Christchurch.

yeah, I suggested the guy driving sticks to boats, he didn't see the funny side...:pac:

Surveyor11

Qualitymark wrote: »

to look deep into the driver's eyes

I try to look into their souls as well:pac:

Jawgap

I feel quite safe when cycling - not as much as I do when I drive or take the bus, but still more than safe enough. I certainly don't think it's dangerous to cycle in Dublin, despite the tragic events of yesterday.

A bit of common sense, a healthy respect for most of the RotR, and a good set of lights go a long way to making it both safe and enjoyable.

Last year TCD published this study "Perception of safety of cyclists in Dublin City"

It kind of shows that your perception of how safe cycling is relative to other forms of transport is, understandably enough, a function of a range of factors.

But, the more you cycle, the more experience you accumulate, the safer you perceive cycling.

However, it does also conclude that "negative driver attitude has been identified as a key factor which affects the perception of safety of cyclists."

DirkVoodoo

I mostly feel safe, but yes tragic events like yesterday make you realise how mental the roads can be. People willing to gamble with someone else's safety over a matter of a few seconds or because their behaviour irritates them, really?

For example, guy in a shiny new 5 series did what I see far too regularly, he drove into the bus lane at Booterstown avenue and undertook at speed (I'd guess in the 80 km/hr+ region) the line of traffic simply to get up the road quicker.

Again, waiting at the lights to go up Carysfort avenue and I was staring at that very corner, I get a green light and a car heading northbound on the rock road powers through what was a solid red light.

What really sickens me is the lack of Garda presence. If you aren't willing to commit to properly funding a dedicated traffic unit, deaths will continue to rise. At least bring in red light cameras like they have in Australia. People speed plenty there, but they don't run red lights the way the Irish do.

mathie

Beasty wrote: »

Cycling is generally very safe. Today's tragic accident is in the hands of the investigators and until the relevant authorities publish their conclusions is not for discussion here. However the number of cyclist fatalities has dropped in recent years and for the past 2-3 years has averaged 1 or less a month in Ireland at a time when cycling has been on the increase. Yes people still have close calls but serious incidents like today are fortunately very rare. Life is full of risks, but cycling is not one of the major ones

That sounds fairly risky to me.

cdaly_

Qualitymark wrote: »

I normally feel safe, and find most drivers courteous and careful

I attribute that to my assertive cycling style. I take lanes where necessary (eg. cycle lane to the left of left-turn lane, I take the middle of the lane in the traffic queue) and leave myself plenty of escape room (avoiding door-zone etc).

Qualitymark wrote: »

One tip: I signal where I'm going, and try to make eye contact with drivers. I have discovered that if you signal with your hand turned upside down so the *palm* is facing drivers, they're much more liable to see - to notice - it. I think this may be because we grow up with people holding up a palm to stop us, so seeing a palm gives the brain a stronger signal than seeing the back of a cyclist's hand.

Eye-contact and big, obvious signals.

Surveyor11 wrote: »

I try to look into their souls as well:pac:

Ick! All grubby in there!...

Surveyor11

cdaly_ wrote: »

I try to look into their souls as well

Ick! All grubby in there!...

Have yet to find one:pac:

Jawgap

mathie wrote: »

That sounds fairly risky to me.

It's all relative......

According to Cardiologist Dr Joe Galvin

"........at least one young Irish person under the age of 35 dies suddenly each week from cardiac diseases such as Cardiomyopathy or Sudden Adult Death Syndrome (SADS)."

magicbastarder

mathie wrote: »

That sounds fairly risky to me.

i think it was the british medical journal which calculated that the benefits from cycling outweigh the risks by approximately 10 to 1.

seamus

Surveyor11 wrote: »

2 flashing rear lights, hi-vis bag cover and he still didn't see me (apparently).

Slight segway - I think, "Sorry I didn't see you" is for many people a kind of automatic safe excuse. That if they can say they didn't see you, then that removes some of the personal responsibility from them. In their heads it's better than, "I did see you alright, but I assumed you'd stop/assumed I could make it past you".
In reality, "Sorry I didn't see you" is the worst of the worst because it basically is an admission that you were driving with your eyes closed rather than an admission that you made a risky manouver and failed.

Years back, as the "experienced" MTBer in our scout troop, I took about 6 lads on an MTB day trip. At one point we all blew threw a red light (we were 15) right in front of a Garda car, who promptly chased us down and stopped us. He asked us all in turn what colour the light was, we all admitted it was red, except one guy who said, "I dunno, I wasn't looking". He gave us a dressing down about it, told the rest of us to head off but held back the one guy who said he hadn't looked at the light. Took his name, etc, and later that day arrived at his home and had a long chat with his mother about road safety and awareness on the road.

Brayan Massive History wrote: »

Like you I cycle, bike and drive across the city and tbh I feel safer cycling than biking but safest (from personal injury) in the car.

It's all relative, innit. I feel safer pootling along in the car because I'm surrounded by a big cage. But then I feel safer cruising through traffic at 20km/h on the bike than I do driving 120km/h down the motorway in the car. The chances of an accident in the latter case are much smaller, but the consequences of a crash are much larger.

One's perceptions of safety are often at odds with the actual facts of the situation.

rollingscone

When my Dad was teaching me to drive he hammered in the 1.5m overtake rule for cyclists, and the general need to consider how safe cyclists felt with me driving near them. At the time I was learning to drive I didn't cycle and so didn't appreciate the import of this.

You can bet your life I do now.

ThisRegard

mathie wrote: »

That sounds fairly risky to me.

In 2010 44 pedestrians died in road collisions, there was 5 cyclists. In 2011 it was 47 and 9.

Qualitymark

rollingscone wrote: »

When my Dad was teaching me to drive he hammered in the 1.5m overtake rule for cyclists, and the general need to consider how safe cyclists felt with me driving near them.

How I wish most drivers knew this. And knew what 1.5m meant. Six feet is probably a safer measure - most will instinctively understand this; or would if they knew it.

Harrybelafonte

I still wonder if cycling as a child helps on perspective as a driver/cyclist in adulthood.

Oryx

I cycle a good bit at weekends, but this is my first ever week of commuting, as my car is off the road. My commute is on busy single lane rural roads. Every day so far a car or three has passed me too close (I mean really close). I don't ride out too far into the road, these were just drivers who had no idea that their wing mirror was giving me a close shave, or didn't care. One impatient guy passed me on a narrow stretch, while meeting another car. At least the other car honked him out of it.

Kintarō Hattori

Brayan Massive History wrote: »

Like you I cycle, bike and drive across the city and tbh I feel safer cycling than biking but safest (from personal injury) in the car.

My cycle is a 40k round trip, much of it through the city. Once I'm sensible, obey the rules etc I do feel pretty safe from most road users (with the exception being other cyclists and pedestrians).

I just can't imagine your frame on a bicycle Mairt!

Surveyor11

Oryx wrote: »

One impatient guy passed me on a narrow stretch, while meeting another car. At least the other car honked him out of it.

I have this on the Strawberry Beds in places - narrow and windy. I keep out to prevent stupid overtaking that inevitably means me being squeezed onto the side of the road as well as dangers for oncoming cars.

bannerfella

I returned to cycling after a few years absence and I find that I'm more aware of cyclists when I'm driving, especially when it comes to overtaking and leaving plenty space when driving behind a cyclist. I know when I'm cycling there's no worse sensation than imagining the car behind me right on my wheel.
Recently had an argument in the pub about motorists v cyclists. Attitude from the lads was "Ye've no rights, ye don't pay tax". They couldn't grasp how they can make cyclists feel safer on the road so I gave up.
Overall, I've had some incidents while cycling but the only time I fell was my first time out after getting cleats so I'm lucky. I do feel safe, but sometimes I just ignore stupid and inconsiderate behaviour at this stage

Zillah

I've been cycling my whole life, and do about 100km a week on average, including the work commute. I generally feel fairly safe...but then again, that said, if an inexperienced cyclist asked me if I would recommend they cycle in and out of the city centre, I suddenly realise what an intense and intimidating environment it would be if you're not very confident on the bike. It's certainly not for the faint-hearted. I have had two instances where drivers did something dangerous and irresponsible, and I was able to take action to prevent danger.

I started driving a year and a half ago and I think I've learned to be a bit more considerate of drivers. Just because I technically have room to go somewhere does not mean that I necessarily should; as a driver they have to be extra careful about not harming more vulnerable road users like a cyclist, and it is disrespectful to their duty of care to get too close.

I think I'd be much happier navigating intense rush hour traffic than I would narrow country roads to be honest. High speeds, no where to dodge/manoeuvre, blind corners. Blegh.

Cienciano

Brayan Massive History wrote: »

Like you I cycle, bike and drive across the city and tbh I feel safer cycling than biking but safest (from personal injury) in the car.

My cycle is a 40k round trip, much of it through the city. Once I'm sensible, obey the rules etc I do feel pretty safe from most road users (with the exception being other cyclists and pedestrians).

Funnily enough, I feel safest on the motorbike.

I cycled and rode a motorbike for years before I drove a car. Worst thing about the car is the lack of visibility. 2 big pillars in front of you, never mind looking behind. Bicycle and motorbike you can see everything.
Assuming most people know this, but only start driving a year ago myself

quozl

Cienciano wrote: »

Funnily enough, I feel safest on the motorbike.

You might feel it but statistically you'd be very wrong

Qualitymark

Surveyor11 wrote: »

I have this on the Strawberry Beds in places - narrow and windy. I keep out to prevent stupid overtaking that inevitably means me being squeezed onto the side of the road as well as dangers for oncoming cars.

The Strawberry Beds is deadly. Back in the day, a group of locals (mainly one in her 80s, Mrs Peake, RIP, a darling) used to bring the children along this road to school in a 'walking bus' every day. I don't know if this has changed, but in those days there was a sane speed limit going out of town, but none going into town, or the other way around. One of the neighbours backed out of his house carefully onto the road and before he'd started to drive forward heard a terrific crash and found that a dead motorcyclist had joined him in the front seat; the pillion passenger had sailed over the car and her body was lying on the road 50 feet or so behind his car. He never drove again.

ThisRegard

I can only think of two serious issues I've had with motorists since I was a teenager. First was cycling home from Dublin City Centre after picking up a new bike from that bike shop that was just off O'Connell Bridge, the name escapes me now, probably nearly 20 years ago now. I had only cycled down the quays from the bridge and was clipped by a car near the Ha'penny bridge. The idiot whacked my handle bars with his wing mirror and didn't even slow down, one of his rear passengers at least sat up to look around at me. I've no idea how he managed it as it was first thing on a Saturday morning and the quays were empty so there was loads of space. So within 5 minutes of having a new bike I already had a mark on the handlebars !

The second was only a year or two ago, on a roundabout taking the 3rd exit. A woman came behind me and tried to go around the inside of me to take the same exit as me. As there was no space, it was either me or the footpath, she had to brake hard and berate me for some reason or another.

I had 2 other minor instances of a bus driver come up behind and beep, upon turning around he indicated I leave the bus lane. Both times could have been the same driver.

So despite all the vitriol by some of the loons around boards, by and large my personal experience isn't too bad. Maybe I just look very angry when I cycle ?

Zillah

Oh, and I would like to say that generally drivers are excellent about holding back if there is a car blocking the cycle lane and I have to go out and around it. It would be very easy for a car to bully past me but they almost never do, to their credit. It helps if you make a few obvious glances over your shoulder early so they can see you're checking to see what they're gonna do.

Alf Veedersane

The way I see it there are drivers who are careless/idiots, there are cyclists that are reckless/idiots and there are pedestrians that are reckless/idiots.

I just assume that everyone else on the road is going to pick the most stupid option available to them so in expecting the worst, I have a better chance for keeping myself from being involved in an accident.

rp

ThisRegard wrote: »

cycling home from Dublin City Centre after picking up a new bike from that bike shop that was just off O'Connell Bridge, the name escapes me now, probably nearly 20 years ago now.

Harding's, got my first MTB there. You could park your bike there, too.

cdaly_

Zillah wrote: »

Oh, and I would like to say that generally drivers are excellent about holding back if there is a car blocking the cycle lane and I have to go out and around it. It would be very easy for a car to bully past me but they almost never do, to their credit. It helps if you make a few obvious glances over your shoulder early so they can see you're checking to see what they're gonna do.

Moving out early helps a lot too rather than waiting until you're on top of the parked car before making your manouevre.

redmaxi

Cienciano wrote: »

I drive, cycle and ride a motorbike across dublin. Life would be better if everyone had to spend a week or 2 doing each.

Never truer words spoken. I do all three as well for a long time now and have seen some unbelievable stuff on the roads. I don't feel safe doing any one of them because I know there are some serious mental cases out there in charge of motor vehicles (and bicycles).
But if it was safe I probably wouldn't be doing it.

“A ship is always safe at the shore - but that is NOT what it is built for.”
― Albert Einstein

dearg lady

maxamillius wrote: »

Have recently started cycling to work and admittedly I was one of these I hate cyclists drivers but seeing what I've seen recently I've changed my mind,ya I drivers are a complete and utter joke when it comes to just pulling in and stopping on cycling lanes,
Do you feel safe cycling?just today young woman dies in black rock and also on my way out of town a woman got absolutely milled my a car,bike snapped in 2,luckily she was up and moving,I think people need to wise up both drivers and cyclists,it's not that difficult to live in harmony on the roads

Just out of interest, can you explain why you hated cyclists before you started cycling? Sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head off a brick wall trying to talk to someone with this attitude, so some insight would be useful!

I was a pedestrian first, then cyclist, then motorist. I never hated any of the other road users, but there was a few things that changed my perspective when I took up cycling, then driving. It's good to see things from the other persons point of view. I must admit, I have seen some seriously reckless behaviour on the road, thankfully none of it resulting in serious injury. I still feel quite safe on the bike, but I'd like to see the 'us vs. them' attitude dissappear.

ThisRegard

rp wrote: »

Harding's, got my first MTB there. You could park your bike there, too.

That's the place. Yeah, used to pay the couple of quid to park the bike up there too when I did cycle in.

monument

It's a sad time to be mentioning cold hard stats, but there's been just 1-2 road collision deaths of cyclists per year in Co Dublin in the last five years which corresponds to a massive boom in cyclist numbers on the streets in the same time.

Most of the years there was just 1 death -- which is too high and I'm at pains to use the word 'just' but the death toll used to be notably higher (for example, 10 deaths in 1997 and 6 in 2006 and around 3-4 most other years).

I've complied some stats on this from a few RSA reports as well Garda press releases and requests to the RSA... I'm planning on expanding on this...

http://cyclingindublin.com/facts-and-figures/dublin-cyclist-deaths-and-injuries/

valleyoftheunos

I never feel safe on my 4km commute in Dublin City centre, there is too much traffic and there are careless/dangerous cyclists, pedestrians and Motorists all around. Outside the city however its a different story, I can cycle for hours through the countryside and not feel endangered at any point.

07Lapierre

I feel safest cycling at night on narrow country roads! Why? Because i have good lights and i can see the lights of cars coming towards me from behind (from a long way off) and as i approach a bend/junction, i can see the lights of any car approaching ( even if the cars is around the corner or obstructed by hedges etc.). I also wear headphones and listen to music!

NeedMoreGears

I generally feel quite safe on the bike and I'm confident I can spot trouble ahead of time and take evasive/preventative action - otherwise I wouldn't get on the bike in the first place. That's not to say I don't recognise there's a certain risk in getting on the bike but to me it's a pretty small one, probably in line with the risk attaching to most daily activities.

The only time I feel unsafe on the bike is if I find myself out in icy conditions or in very high winds - in that case it's my own fault as I generally have an alternative to cycling if I need to get somewhere.

I've had a few close passes and I've had to let out a warning shout or brake hard now and then but not much more than I would have had to sound the horn or brake in the car. I've been knocked down twice (in over forty years of cycling) which was poor judgement rather than malice on behalf of the drivers - no harm done thankfully. Although I was completely in the right, a bit of better positioning and a little less speed might have helped. Mostly my adverse encounters with the motoring community involve bad manners on their part (cutting across me etc) which usually annoys rather than endangers me. These adverse encounters are considerably outweighed by those who drive properly or who have let me out etc etc.

hypersonic

something that baffles me is why bikes don't have indicators, nearly every other thing we have has flashing leds, I feel safer when driver know what I am about to do, I do use hand signals but some times with the roads as rough as they are it's a choice between controlling the bike or signaling.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I just can't imagine your frame on a bicycle Mairt!

I might have one or two pix in this forum, I'm going to go back to a hybrid from a racer.. A beefy mountain bike might be better over a shorter distance.

Oh, I haven't buckled a wheel or brake a frame (yet)

ciotog

hypersonic wrote: »

something that baffles me is why bikes don't have indicators, nearly every other thing we have has flashing leds, I feel safer when driver know what I am about to do, I do use hand signals but some times with the roads as rough as they are it's a choice between controlling the bike or signaling.

I tried out http://www.bicygnals.com/ for awhile a couple of years ago. While novel they certainly weren't robust enough for Galway weather conditions:
- The front and rear units frequently lost sync
- The lights would shut-off or fail to switch on
On the motorist behaviour side they didn't seem to notice them. I presume they simply didn't 'see' them in most cases. While I agree that control can be an issue with hand signals I think it forces one to improve their handling skills. I'm sure I'll improve mine eventually