AIB Sixth Belfry Property Investment flop

nb64

Hi there.
New to Boards. Just wondering if anyone out there has lost out on the above scheme. How ye feel about the whole deal and if theres any recourse? Feeling as if it was a hard sell from day one. Not looking for sympathy - just some insight.
Tnx.
Noel.

Value Hunter

nb64 wrote: »

Hi there.
New to Boards. Just wondering if anyone out there has lost out on the above scheme. How ye feel about the whole deal and if theres any recourse? Feeling as if it was a hard sell from day one. Not looking for sympathy - just some insight.
Tnx.
Noel.

Sorry to go slightly off topic but,


Quite interesting to note that John Peter Frocker, a director in each Belfry Property, was appointed to the board of Zamano last year, a company with numerous ethical commercial breaches in my view, and in the Irish courts if i'm not mistaken.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055519613

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056520989



The phrase a leopard never changes its spots springs to mind

jank

Looking at the history of funds and schemes that the Irish Investmant companies come up with, I would NEVER invest in any of these.

gordongekko

Anything with aib in the name is a no no for me. I hate the fact that I still have 3 mortgages with them. I would never let them invest for me personally.

kippax

nb64 wrote: »

Hi there.
New to Boards. Just wondering if anyone out there has lost out on the above scheme. How ye feel about the whole deal and if theres any recourse? Feeling as if it was a hard sell from day one. Not looking for sympathy - just some insight.
Tnx.
Noel.

Hello yes I lost a considerable amount of money on belfry 5 ,I don't invest in high risk and I feel this is a core issue as this investment was not sold to me as high risk and if I heard those words I would never have invested have we any recourse on this

gordongekko

kippax wrote: »

Hello yes I lost a considerable amount of money on belfry 5 ,I don't invest in high risk and I feel this is a core issue as this investment was not sold to me as high risk and if I heard those words I would never have invested have we any recourse on this

what year was this policy sold to you?

roro2

What do you mean by recourse?

By the sounds of it, both of you have an issue with the sales process rather than the product itself. The only realistic course of action is to make a complaint to the bank on this basis and, if they don't uphold the complaint (almost a certainty), to take the complaint to the financial ombudsman. I'm sure all the fund documentation and marketing material will have the appropriate warnings - "this is a high risk fund", "you may lose some or all of your investment", etc, so you will have to make your complaint on the basis of how it was sold to you and the product's non-suitability for you, and not on how the fund has performed.

gordongekko

roro2 wrote: »

What do you mean by recourse?

By the sounds of it, both of you have an issue with the sales process rather than the product itself. The only realistic course of action is to make a complaint to the bank on this basis and, if they don't uphold the complaint (almost a certainty), to take the complaint to the financial ombudsman. I'm sure all the fund documentation and marketing material will have the appropriate warnings - "this is a high risk fund", "you may lose some or all of your investment", etc, so you will have to make your complaint on the basis of how it was sold to you and the product's non-suitability for you, and not on how the fund has performed.

trained financial advisors are trained to sell you a product suitable to your needs and will have a record of why they sold you this product.

It will depend on how long ago the product was sold before you can confirm the available options to the individual.

roro2

True enough - Belfry 6 was 2006/2007 so it may be beyond the scope of the ombudsman.

Advisors should sell you a suitable product and document same, but it seems that something else is being alleged. It is also an investor's responsibility to read and understand what they are investing in however.

R0bb01987

There is an element of blame on investers as most contracts will have a declaration at the back for the client to sign to confirm they understand the product.

Most investment products will state "you may lose some or all of your investment" as a generic cover for the product itself. some products will have a range of funds that the Financial Advisor needs to match to their clients risk profile.

You could argue that the funds selected were sold to you as medium to low risk however in truth were high risk. Im not usre about timeframe for the ombudsman to investigate however I know the FSA in the UK will go back as far as need be. You will have to follow the companies complaint procedures in full before going to the ombudsman.

kippax

I do not in anyway dispute that investors take risks and you win or you lose my point was in the manner the banks sold Belfry yes of course everything is in the paper work but its the sales process I have an issue with the words high risk were never used

I have been involved in a number of investment portfolios and the majority I capital protect or at max go to medium risk

I purchased Belfry 5 2005 and anyone that had any level of cash in a deposit acc with AIB were heavily promoted to get into Belfry even the staff.

I have an issue with the sales process and will pursue a complaint process although it is probably statue barred at this stage given the normal time period is 6 years from date of sale Is there any appetite out there to form a Belfry forum to lobby the banks:

gordongekko

kippax wrote: »

I do not in anyway dispute that investors take risks and you win or you lose my point was in the manner the banks sold Belfry yes of course everything is in the paper work but its the sales process I have an issue with the words high risk were never used

I have been involved in a number of investment portfolios and the majority I capital protect or at max go to medium risk

I purchased Belfry 5 2005 and anyone that had any level of cash in a deposit acc with AIB were heavily promoted to get into Belfry even the staff.

I have an issue with the sales process and will pursue a complaint process although it is probably statue barred at this stage given the normal time period is 6 years from date of sale Is there any appetite out there to form a Belfry forum to lobby the banks:

you can still complain through the banks internal procedure. The financial ombudsman can only go back 7 years. Althought there are plans to increase this. If you are unhappy with the response from the bank you can always seek legal advice on the matter.

odd1

Sorry for off topic
I was about to download aib mobile app from Google play store, when I read the app permission it requests access to contacts on my phone to see who I. Been calling and emailing.
wtf ?

Kristopherus

odd1 wrote: »

Sorry for off topic
I was about to download aib mobile app from Google play store, when I read the app permission it requests access to contacts on my phone to see who I. Been calling and emailing.
wtf ?

Yes , you are way off topic:D. You would get a better response if you started a new thread in Consumer Issues.

Fitz123

Sorry to hear about anyone that invested in this, have read threads about it elsewhere, and it appears a number of people were not advised about the risk to their own equity in the investment.

Not sure how much I can mention it here, but recall recently seeing on askaboutmoney a thread where investors are looking meet with one another, as they may have better luck tackling this en masse rather than individually.

Sean F Healy

Hi Noel,

Like you I am new to Boards.
I invested in Belfry 3 in 2003 and a year later in Belfry 4. My investments are now apparently worthless.
The Financial Ombudsman is not interested because any complaint must be made within 5 years of inception of the investment. Difficult as I didn't know there was a problem until the 7 year period of investment had finished!
Both were on interest only and were sold to me as a no lose investment. Although that is of course overwritten by the contract that we signed.
I am actively disputing through an independent financial adviser and a solicitor, the way the products were sold to me ie. completely misrepresented by the ARK financial adviser.
I have twice tried to get on air with Joe Duffy but he doesn't appear to be interested.
I think a group should be formed to take a test case. This could only be done if all involved were willing to help pay for costs.
I saw a case last week where a group of Irish investors are suing Irish Life for what appears to be a similar set up.
I would be very interested to get in touch with anyone who has a view or an interest in any of the Belfry investments.

Regards,

Sean

Sonnenblumen

If I did what the financial advisers were pushing 'great investment opportunities' on me 5 years ago, my savings and pension would by now have been completely wiped out. I also managed to avoid huge indebtedness by declining any interest in ridiculously risky and highly speculative geared property schemes in UK etc.

These bank 'advisers' were nothing more than snake oil sales people, telling you what you want to hear but saying nothing on what you needed to know.

I have nothing but contempt for the banks now.

I wish success for anyone participating in any possible class action.

kippax

Hi Sean I agree together we may present a case what do we need to do how do we contact other investors

kippax

Has anyone received the letter aboutEGM in stillorgan park hotel nov 8th this seems a good opportunity to voice complaints as a collective group

Sean F Healy

Hi
I received the package re the EGM from Belfry also.
If you read it closely you can see that there is a proxy already representing people like us. Therefore, I don't think we will be allowed attend.
We should concentrate on trying to think of ways to contact people who bought Belfrys.

gordongekko

Guys please pm each other. Get together ,remember there is strength in numbers.

kippax

Hello All we received a letter last week stating there is a meeting to be held the 8th November at 3.30 at the stillorgan park hotel which is described as an EGM to wind up Belfry five. Can we collectively whether you are involved in any of the Belfry's organise a forum to attend this meeting and ask the directors a few simple questions such as:
1. What were the underlying criterion used to purchase the properties included in the portfolio, some of the decisions look very por where properties were purchased in areas that were at the time clearly struggling and little investment available so to invert in retail where purchasing power growth was limited was a strange decision 2, Given investor money was fully eroded in 2009 why have they waited till 2013 to wind up the company it seems very cooincidental given that complaints can only be accepted by the ombudsman within 7 years of signing an investment prospectus.

Please spread the word as far and as high as you can collectively we can bring these directors AIB and BDO to task and at least challenge there decisions and performance and possibly seek a legal action against the company Monsal Limited the directors are Sean Henneberry, Ann Blackmore, Tony Kilduff, John Peter Rockett, and John Wilkinson

nb64

Hi all.
Just to let you know that my other half was recently in the local AIB to be told informally that there is no life in belfry 6 but that we should quickly lodge a formal complaint with branch regarding our "case". Nothing promised.
Should we belfry "victims" organize ourselves for some form of complaint and possible financial return? Im up for a scrap with incompetent bankers! Why should I yield to their pressure regarding my overdraft when they can walk away from Belfry! Rant over!!!

kippax

Hello All

I feel AIB have a case to answer regarding the Belfry product for 3 reasons

1. It was never sold as a high risk product offering it does state this in the prospectus but you need to search for such wording

2. The returns promised do not reflect a high risk investment more like medium to low risk

3. There was allot of sales pressure applied on any AIB customer that held money in a fixed term deposit account between 2004 and 2006

Can we get together to set out our terms of ref as a group and to seek legal or regulatory advice on our next steps as a collective group of investors. Similar groups achieved success against ACC and some Dubai property funds.

By the way the EGM for Belfry is being held this friday at 3 in Dublin

PadW

I set up a tread on askaboutmoney back in August 2013 on Belfry 5.
We have managed to gather circa 16 Belfry investors - mostly from B 4 and B 5 but a few from B 6.
We have a solicitor on board and I think have been quite challenging to date! More to come.
Mail me on snip for more info!

Keep heart!

PadW

We (B 5 and B 4) are meeting at the Stillorgan Park tomorrow - all Belfry victims are welcome. snip

PadW

snip

ToxicPaddy

MOD NOTE

PadW, it's best not to post personal details on here.

Get anyone who is interested to contact you via PM and provide them information that way.

Thank
Tox

kippax

agree with the objective to review the legal options PPI was totally miss sold by all financial institutions mainly due to poor training by cleint facing staff and a commission driven culture - It is clear from 2002 Belfry and BDO maintained a policy to prioritise trhe selling of Belfry to any customers with deposit monies. The high risk and highly leveraged factors were not discussed in any lenght and in alot of cases never mentioned how ever they are explained in the prospectus and this is where the Bank and there advisors will direct you every time. Again why are they urgently winding these schemes up now given the UK is in a fast recovery mode and combine this with the statue bar 6 year period an there is some collusion by the banks to make a quick buck by bundling the assets and reselling so the banks don't lose out it all smells of something!!

roro2

Anything further from the EGM?

Power2011

No doubt those selling the Belfry were under pressure from branch managers and those above to sell them plus they probably got commission from the sale also.

What was the outcome of the egm

kippax

Was there any response to questions raised at egm

Sean F Healy

Hi,

Are you aware of the meeting in Morans Red Cow on Saturday March 1st 2014?
A group is/has been formed to see where we can go with this.
Attendance by everyone who has bought a Belfry is highly recommended.

maurlyn

Thanks for that Sean. I will be there from CORK. Is there any way that we can let other Belfryites know about the meeting that dont use Boards.ie??

Sean F Healy

Hi Maurlyn,

I am going to post to facebook and maybe twitter and ask every contact that i have to share and that will surely make more people aware of the meeting.
If you do the same and we also post on the thread 'm fairly sure word will get around?

Cute Hoor

maurlyn wrote: »

Thanks for that Sean. I will be there from CORK. Is there any way that we can let other Belfryites know about the meeting that dont use Boards.ie??

I have no involvement with Belfry (thankfully), but there was a biggish ad in last Sunday's Business Post about this meeting in the Red Cow, so I'd imagine lots of people are aware of it.

Best of luck in your efforts.

fitzier

what time is the meeting in the Red Cow on 1st March on at?

fitzier

can anyone tell me the time of investors meeting re belfry at red cow on 1st march 2014

thesultan

Is there is any phone number for Pam Malone? I'll like to ask more before I go.

farmer sam

Hi Sean, thank you for your post. I am new to boards. I invested heavily in Belfry 4 and lost everything. I lodged a complaint with the financial services ombudsman and the case is ongoing now for five years. The FSO is very slow to respond to my solicitors but I will go through fire and brimstone to nail these guys. I think that anyone caught in the statute of limitations should be petitioning T.D's to get change introduced and have the time line extended. This is how institutions get away with white collar crime, by hiding behind the statute. I believe that Deputy Richard Bruton was also burned in Belfry 5.

joeman

Hi Folks,

I'm in the same boat as you and equally disgruntled to say the least. I too was never informed about the downside risk of this investment and at no point in the sales cycle was I informed it was a geared fund. Maybe I was too trusting and wanted to believe what I was hearing. Can anyone shed more light on the upcoming meeting in the Red Cow on March 1st?

fitzier

Meeting is at 2pm- the more that attend the better so that we have strength in numbers.

joeman

Thanks Fitzier, unfortunately I'm out of the country on the 1st but I would like to get involved with any joined up approach that might come out of the meeting. Can you post your feedback from the meeting here please?

fitzier

interesting meeting in Red Cow last Staurday with alrge attendence of over 200- there were 1,800 pople whom invested in the various funds.
It was agreed to put €150 each into a fund to get legal opinion as to how to proceed.
contact <snip> if anyone wants to join the group. The bigger the group the better chance of some recovery of funds but that will be challenging.

Bandg

Hi new to boards only heard meeting was on in march can any one put me in right direction of any solicitors or group dealing with this thanks

tractortom

I too got burned (badly) by Belfry 6, the interesting thing is that I was told how well all the previous Belfry investments had performed. I would like to join this group, can somebody please PM me contact details.

fitzier

the action group for the belfry investors now totals 370 people and each are committing the sum of €150 to see if we can proceed with a case against the bank.

contact *snip* if you want more information.


MOD NOTE

No contact information in any posts please.

Anyone wishing to contact can do via pm.

Any questions, drop me a pm.

Thanks

Bandg

Hi can someone please pm me details of solicitors dealing with this thanks

bobbyewing

Hi
New to Boards and just seen this and also lost on Belfry 6, how do I find out more on this action

brooklands5

I am also new to Boards and invested in Belfry 6 much to my disappointment. I would like to find out more about the action being undertaken by stung investors and lend my support etc. Can someone pm me the contact details?

brooklands5

fitzier wrote: »

interesting meeting in Red Cow last Staurday with alrge attendence of over 200- there were 1,800 pople whom invested in the various funds.
It was agreed to put €150 each into a fund to get legal opinion as to how to proceed.
contact <snip> if anyone wants to join the group. The bigger the group the better chance of some recovery of funds but that will be challenging.

Hi Fitzier, as a burned investor in Belfry 6, is there any chance you could pass on contact details of the organiser(s) of this action group and lend my support?
Rgds, Brooklands5