Women in the Bible

Quiet Girl

Hi guys,

Just looking for opinions and advice really as I am struggling to understand something.

I studied Theology in college and we had a module on scripture, the last while I have been thinking about this particular lesson we had on women's role in the bible which I had just put to the back of my mind. The part I am struggling to understand is from Genesis, when God created a companion from Adam it states that Eve was created from Adam's body. The other part is when Eve took the apple from the tree and as punishment they were both banished from the garden and also God bestowed upon women the pain of childbirth, therefore all women must suffer with this.

I suppose, as a woman in this modern day I am just struggling to understand this concept of woman being created from man and all women having to suffer because of one woman's sin. Would anybody care to share their opinions and perhaps shed some light for me?

Thanks.

Benny_Cake

A great many Christians would now read the creation account in Genesis as purely metaphorical. While I can't claim to be an expert on it, I found this this to be quite interesting:

http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/mutuality-adam-eve

lmaopml

That's a great blog post Benny from Rachel.

Quiet Girl, not sure if you are Catholic? - and even if you aren't the Catechism is really cool for understanding or beginning to understand 'The Fall' - and indeed 'Original Sin' as they reference Scripture.

I'd tend to agree with Rachel Held Evans also that in the beginning men and women were both created in the image of God and equal in holiness.

With the loss of holiness, a tendency towards sin and a sickness of sorts entered creation and indeed not only women suffer, but men too - death effects every living thing, and the whole of creation. It wasn't like that before the fall.

Interesting to note that in Scripture when man rebelled, pretty much instantly God had a plan to restore him - indeed the victory over death is foretold for all of creation. St. Paul says, 'where sin abounds, grace much more abounds'.

Quiet Girl

Yes I agree, it is a very good post.

Yes I am Catholic however wasn't exactly raised to practice my religion, that is a decision I made when I chose to study Theology, but there is still a lot I dont understand as a lot of things were never explained to me growing up.

I found it very enlightening when Rachel wrote how in the beginning woman was actually created as man's equal, nice to see that written in plain english.

She also writes about man dominating women, which I think is apparent that it is as a result of sin.

Thanks for the replies guys

lionmqj

Hi Quiet Girl. We have been created in the image of God. The first being Adam which simply means Man or Mankind.
(Genesis 1:26-27 ESV)
[26] Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
[27] So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”.


The words “image” and “likeness” in the original Hebrew text here refer to something that is similar but not identical to the thing it represents (or is an image of).
The word image here is something that represents something else.

So God created us in his image or as representations of Himself.

We are unique on the earth and also in heaven as “created beings” in that we have been created in the image of God.

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them”.

Now sin entered us as created beings through Adam and has distorted that image. So now mankind has a sin nature. Sin is in mankind and he cant get rid of it. Sin now permeates our being in our actions and our thinking. This has been passed on from generation to generation from the first Adam.
Sin carried on from Adam and Eve. They had two sons and one killed the other!
But thanks be to God we have hope.
The New Testament calls Jesus “The last Adam” and in 1 Corinthians 15:45 it says “Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit”.

Jesus is our hope

And a few verses later in1 Corinthians 47-49 the bible says…. “The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven”.

Now, those who are in Christ, the second Adam, don’t see the full measure of their creation in the image of God nor will they see it until the return of Jesus. We are all imperfect now but when Jesus returns the Bible says that those who are in Christ will be like Him. 1 John 3:2 "See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure".

The New Testament emphasizes that Gods purpose in creating man in His image was completely realized in the person of Jesus Christ.

He himself “is the image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4).
And also…..
(Colossians 1:15-20 ESV) "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross".

Jesus made peace by the blood of His cross and commissioned the apostles to preach this Gospel (Good news) to the whole world. The apostle paul went to Athens and here is what he said to them..... "So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for
“‘In him we live and move and have our being’;
as even some of your own poets have said,
“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

This Gospel message is for the whole world to hear and it is the same today as it was then, it is simply "repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ" Acts 20:21

El_Duderino 09

Benny_Cake wrote: »

A great many Christians would now read the creation account in Genesis as purely metaphorical.

lmaopml wrote: »

With the loss of holiness, a tendency towards sin and a sickness of sorts entered creation and indeed not only women suffer, but men too - death effects every living thing, and the whole of creation. It wasn't like that before the fall.

Hey lmaopml

As a matter of interest do you think there was an an actual time an place where this was the case? In your opinion, was there an actual place with no suffering 'before the fall' or just in a metaphorical sense as Benny says above?

Thanks

lmaopml

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Hey lmaopml

As a matter of interest do you think there was an an actual time an place where this was the case? In your opinion, was there an actual place with no suffering 'before the fall' or just in a metaphorical sense as Benny says above?

Thanks

Most Christians believe that there will be a new heavens and earth, that this is the ultimate restoration if you like of harmony with God. Much like a new creation, a new 'universe' or restoration as such where there is no decay and death.


That is, that 'heaven' as such is not our ultimate destination, but an actual new earth with bodily resurrection of the dead. We profess it in our Creed, have done for millenia...

I suppose that the answer is yes and no - I believe that metaphor is used to convey a deeper meaning in Genesis insofar as it's not meant as a scientific text or anything. It's largely talking about God, Creation, Man and his relationship with God and also the fall that brought about a universe that's dying...I think it's what we 'need' to know as such in relation to our faith as regards these things. Do I see symbolism etc. well yes, but then Genesis has been largely talked to death....I don't dig my heels in - I take out of it what is most important to take out of it in relation to my Catholic faith, and leave the unknown to the unknowns as such. Hope that helps.

Hope that helps.

El_Duderino 09

lmaopml wrote: »

Hope that helps.

Yes it does.
Thanks for replying.

lionmqj

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Hey lmaopml

As a matter of interest do you think there was an an actual time an place where this was the case? In your opinion, was there an actual place with no suffering 'before the fall' or just in a metaphorical sense as Benny says above?

Thanks

Hope you dont mind me answering this too.
If a christian believes that Jesus performed many signs and wonders such as healing a mans withered hand, casting demons out, raising people from the dead, being Himself raised from the dead and if a christian believes that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity and if a christian believes every word Jesus said even when He Himself reffered to the Genesis account [4] He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
(Matthew 19:4 ESV) and [6] But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’
(Mark 10:6 ESV) (Jesus was quoting from Genesis. He quoted the Old Testament all the time). and if a christian believes Jesus Himself when He said that His word would stand forever (Matt 24:35) meaning the words He spoke including the references to Genesis and if a christian fully trusts God in all that He said in His Word (and not adding to or taking away from it) and if a christian also notes that Jesus said to the two on the road to Emmaus
[27] And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
(Luke 24:27 ESV) including the book of Isaiah which Jesus also quoted [8] The grass withers, the flower fades,
but the word of our God will stand forever.
(Isaiah 40:8 ESV) and if a christian believes that Gods Word will stand forever and is true and that Jesus died for sinners and will return on the day of the Lord and fully trusts Him in all that He said, well then how can a christian not believe in Genesis too? Is God not able to uphold His own Word?

tommy2bad

I think the genesis myth is more a prequel to the bible than anything else. It's not about the past, what happened to get us here, it's setting out what the rest of the story will be about. Genesis sets up a situation were mankind feels that their has to be more than this and the rest of the bible is the attempt to answer this need.
I wouldn't read any more than that into it.
Women in the bible are actually quite surprising when you get past the ones that became bywords, Lots wife Mary Magdalene and such. Most are strong, even headstrong women.
Jesus is shown in the gospels as talking to women as equals and never dismisses them. Paul on the other hand...Well that's another kettle of loaves and fishes.
I think we often read the bible from a viwepoint of 'now' and forget that it was written for it's time and needs to be read that way.

lionmqj

tommy2bad wrote: »

I think the genesis myth is more a prequel to the bible than anything else. It's not about the past, what happened to get us here, it's setting out what the rest of the story will be about. Genesis sets up a situation were mankind feels that their has to be more than this and the rest of the bible is the attempt to answer this need.
I wouldn't read any more than that into it.
Women in the bible are actually quite surprising when you get past the ones that became bywords, Lots wife Mary Magdalene and such. Most are strong, even headstrong women.
Jesus is shown in the gospels as talking to women as equals and never dismisses them. Paul on the other hand...Well that's another kettle of loaves and fishes.
I think we often read the bible from a viwepoint of 'now' and forget that it was written for it's time and needs to be read that way.

Yes Jesus was the first to treat women equally. Paul did treat women well too.
With regard to Genesis.............To be honest I'd prefer to trust Jesus's opinion on Genesis above anyone else's.
He is God after all.
Part of the trinity.
His Word stands forever.
At the end of the day a Christian cant argue with what Jesus said.

tommy2bad

lionmqj;
At the end of the day a Christian cant argue with what Jesus said.

We never argue about what was said, we argue about what was meant!

lionmqj

tommy2bad wrote: »

Genesis sets up a situation were mankind feels that their has to be more than this and the rest of the bible is the attempt to answer this need

So from reading Genesis, what situation does it set up where mankind feels that their has to be more than this and in what way does the Bible attempt to answer this need? Assuming you believe the Bible can you quote from the bible to show this please.

tommy2bad

lionmqj wrote: »

So from reading Genesis, what situation does it set up where mankind feels that their has to be more than this and in what way does the Bible attempt to answer this need? Assuming you believe the Bible can you quote from the bible to show this please.

Don't do prooftexting.
If you believe the bible is the word of God then you accept that the whole bible is one book with one theme, yes? Now the alternative is that it a collection of books all about different things depending on the time and circumstances when they were written. Or it could be and I admit this is only my take on the bible, a collection of books all different but all concerning a single thing. Mans relationship with God.
In this light it offers more than a set of rules and regulations channeled from God by prophets and leaders. It tells of how man became aware of God and how he struggled to find a way to please this God, it tells of God answering this.

J C

Quiet Girl wrote: »

Hi guys,

Just looking for opinions and advice really as I am struggling to understand something.

I studied Theology in college and we had a module on scripture, the last while I have been thinking about this particular lesson we had on women's role in the bible which I had just put to the back of my mind. The part I am struggling to understand is from Genesis, when God created a companion from Adam it states that Eve was created from Adam's body. The other part is when Eve took the apple from the tree and as punishment they were both banished from the garden and also God bestowed upon women the pain of childbirth, therefore all women must suffer with this.

I suppose, as a woman in this modern day I am just struggling to understand this concept of woman being created from man and all women having to suffer because of one woman's sin. Would anybody care to share their opinions and perhaps shed some light for me?

Thanks.

Adam and Eve were real people who were the first (and only) Humans directly created by God ... male (Adam) and female (Eve) He created them.
The timing and method of Creation is as stated in Genesis ... first Adam ... and then Eve as a helpmate for Adam i.e. a sexual partner and collegue/friend of Adam.
Death and suffering entered the World at the Fall ... which was a joint rejection by both Adam and Eve of God ... and a joint acceptance of Satan's occult system of knowledge of good and evil.
Both men and women continue to suffer pain, disease .... and ultimately death, as a directly inherited result of the effects of Adam and Eve's sin.
Men and women suffer pain and stress from the work necessary to produce the necessities of life, which nature only grudgingly provides, as a result of the Fall. A further extension of this suffering, that is specific to women, is chidbirth, where women suffer obvious distress and pain.
Manflu can also be very stressful ... and painful ... or so I have been told ... I have never had the symptoms myself!!!;):)

tommy2bad

Riiiiight, so labour for women and manflu for men. I'll take that deal.

J C

tommy2bad wrote: »

Riiiiight, so labour for women and manflu for men. I'll take that deal.

... there is also all the heavy hard physical dirty work (that men largely continue to do) by the sweat of their brow ... which is also quite physically stressful.
There are not too many women queuing up to clean sewers or to work in the dirty, dangerous work situations where men still predominate in the workforce. This isn't a criticism of women nor an advocacy of inequality ... just a simple observable fact ... like childbirth ... where women still predominate!!!:)

... as far back as Genesis, men did the heavy lifting by the sweat of their brows ... and women went into painful labour during chidbirth

... the more things change ... the more they stay the same!!!

lionmqj

tommy2bad wrote: »

Don't do prooftexting.
If you believe the bible is the word of God then you accept that the whole bible is one book with one theme, yes? Now the alternative is that it a collection of books all about different things depending on the time and circumstances when they were written. Or it could be and I admit this is only my take on the bible, a collection of books all different but all concerning a single thing. Mans relationship with God.
In this light it offers more than a set of rules and regulations channeled from God by prophets and leaders. It tells of how man became aware of God and how he struggled to find a way to please this God, it tells of God answering this.

If someone doesn't believe that the bible is Thee Word of God but yet claims to be a Christian (Follower of Christ) well then its all about what THEY feel it should be all about which makes God out to be very weak and Santa Claus like. Also it is constructing a God in the image that THEY want.

This has gone way off topic here. Apologies to Quiet Girl (Original poster).

lmaopml

lionmqj wrote: »

If someone doesn't believe that the bible is Thee Word of God but yet claims to be a Christian (Follower of Christ) well then its all about what THEY feel it should be all about which makes God out to be very weak and Santa Claus like. Also it is constructing a God in the image that THEY want.

This has gone way off topic here. Apologies to Quiet Girl (Original poster).

It's turned into Christians who are Creationists in the modern sense of the term as opposed to other Christians and what they actually know about Genesis or whether they ever thought about what it means to their faith? No?

I think the question was designed to invoke such a response, and it worked.

I'm not a Creationist in the modern sense, but perhaps in the old sense of the term, which is why I would reply both 'yes, and no' like the Fathers would have - I believe Scripture is God breathed - and he's greater than I and constantly making it new.

lionmqj

lmaopml wrote: »

I believe Scripture is God breathed - and he's greater than I and constantly making it new.

I agree Scripture is the inspired Word of God. Unchanging Like Him.

tommy2bad

lionmqj wrote: »

I agree Scripture is the inspired Word of God. Unchanging Like Him.

But we change, do you not think God would have alowd for this?

lionmqj

tommy2bad wrote: »

But we change, do you not think God would have alowd for this?

Of course we change, we are like the wind, but the Character of God never changes and never will. I think you've misunderstood me.

J C

lionmqj wrote: »

Of course we change, we are like the wind, but the Character of God never changes and never will. I think you've misunderstood me.

I agree ... Jesus Christ (and therefore God and His Word) ... is the same yesterday ... today ... and for ever.

God is eternal ... and so is His Word.

Hebrews 13:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

lmaopml

lionmqj wrote: »

I agree Scripture is the inspired Word of God. Unchanging Like Him.

Cheers lionmqj - I think my expression sometime lets me down....when I say 'making it new' I mean that it's 'new' always to people across generations in it's depths. The feeling I'm trying to put forward is that Scripture is always old and always new, it's ageless. Not changing, but old and new, always speaking iykwim.

Sefirah

I realise it's not quite the Christian view of it, but I watched a really beautiful video recently on the creation of Chava (Eve) which you may find interesting:
(from 1.18)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVmMg8tFVXQ

sbsquarepants

lionmqj wrote: »

Sin carried on from Adam and Eve. They had two sons and one killed the other!

Eh, sorry to point out the obvious but where did all the other people come from? Incest? :eek:

sbsquarepants

J C wrote: »

Manflu can also be very stressful ... and painful ... or so I have been told ... I have never had the symptoms myself!!!;):)

Give me childbirth every time, pethidine, epidurals and so on.
Manflu - there aint no help for that. It's tough - i know from personal experience as a lucky survivor:D

brian_t

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Eh, sorry to point out the obvious but where did all the other people come from? Incest?

Yes. We know that Adam and Eve had many children.

We also know that Abraham married his half sister.

The laws against marrying close relatives were not introduced until the time of Moses about four hundred years later.

sbsquarepants

brian_t wrote: »

Yes. We know that Adam and Eve had many children.

We also know that Abraham married his half sister.

The laws against marrying close relatives were not introduced until the time of Moses about four hundred years later.

I actually didn't know either of those things! I thought adam and eve had 2 sons, caine and abel and that one of them killed the other (can't remember which was which) How many little adam and eves where there?

brian_t

We are not told how many children Adam and Eve had.

After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters.

Genesis 5 : 4

El_Duderino 09

Since no one really seemed to engage the op's question, I'll give it a go.

On one hand this is used to say that men and women created with equal status.

(Genesis 1:27 ESV)
[27] So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them"

On the other hand is seems fairly explicit here that since the fall, men are to rule over their wives. I'm not sure if that can really mean equality

(Genesis 3:16)
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."


This bit doesn't really seem like equality. Women should not preach to men or have authority over them...

(I Timothy 2:11-14)

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."



Maybe headship means equal position but I think it usually means one is above the other.
(I Corinthians 11:3)
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

(I Corinthians 11:8-9)
"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."



If a woman has a son she is 'unclean' for 7 days but if she has a daughter she is 'unclean' for 66 days. Bible doesn't explain why.

(Leviticus 12:2)
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean."

(Leviticus 12:5)
"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days."


It seems like men and women are not to be seen an equal since the fall. Women cannot preach to men.
Women cannot hold authority over men
In fact women are to be ruled over by men.
Man is the head of the woman.
Giving birth to female babies make women unclean for longer.

I'm probably reading this either out of context or cherry picking. There are probably as many passages which place women above men but I must say I couldn't find them.
I'm not a bible scholar so I'm open to correction on all.

Quiet Girl

Thanks for all the replies guys, I guess everyone has their own view on how the bible should be interpreted, its been very enlightening reading everyones answers!

lionmqj

Quiet Girl wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies guys, I guess everyone has their own view on how the bible should be interpreted, its been very enlightening reading everyones answers!

If you want a better understanding of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood here is a great resource. http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/series-index/biblical-manhood-and-womanhood

This series covers the following topics.

Male and Female He Created Them in the Image of God
God created you male or female that you might be utterly and radically and uniquely devoted to the Lord.

Manhood and Womanhood: Conflict and Confusion After the Fall
The solution to bad harmonizing isn't to make everybody sing the same note.

Manhood and Womanhood Before Sin
Did God design men and women to express their equality in distinct ways?

Jesus, Women, and Men
Jesus has done more than anyone to bring purity and harmony between men and women.

Husbands Who Love Like Christ and the Wives Who Submit to Them
Sin didn't create headship and submission; it ruined them, distorted them, and made them ugly and destructive

Manhood, Womanhood, and the Freedom to Minister
Manhood and womanhood are most fulfilled when servant-hearted men lead God's church in ministry.

Affirming the Goodness of Manhood and Womanhood in All of Life
Life is more beautiful and more exciting because we are so different as male and female.

El_Duderino 09

lionmqj wrote: »

If you want a better understanding of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood here is a great resource. http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/series-index/biblical-manhood-and-womanhood

Manhood, Womanhood, and the Freedom to Minister
Manhood and womanhood are most fulfilled when servant-hearted men lead God's church in ministry.


I've read a few of these and its amazing how many words it takes to explain how the bible doesn't really mean what it says. The above example is pretty good. He breaks down what is meant by (I Timothy 2:11-14) "Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

He breaks it into explanations of 'silence' 'teaching' and 'authority'.

Silence means "quietness" as in accept headship of a man.
Teaching doesn't really mean anything because its contradicted elsewhere.
The most confusing bit is where authority/leadership actually means being a servant to those over whom you have authority.

It's a pity that the article doesn't make any effort to explain why women shouldn't be in authority. Why not just get the best person for the job?
Maybe the worst man would still be better than the best woman.

The idea that leadership is actually a lowly position is kind of Orwellian. Only men can be leaders, leaders are actually servants, therefore men actually serve women.

Either way the the bible doesn't mean what it says. It actually means what this guy says. John Piper

Why all the effort to explain away what the bible says anyway? If that's what god wanted to say then why try to retrofit it to today's desire for equality?

lionmqj

El_Duderino 09 are you a Bible believing Christian in other words do you believe that the Bible is fully the inspired word of God?

El_Duderino 09

lionmqj wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 are you a Bible believing Christian in other words do you believe that the Bible is fully the inspired word of God?

No.

I think I've engaged this topic on the bible's terms though.

Do you disagree with the argument I put forward in the last post?