The honest pursuit of academic achievement?

the back of beyond

There seems to be an automatic presumption when someone gets7 A1s in their leaving Cert that they obtained those results honestly. If I was an exam invigilator, I would ask serious questions if someone got flawless results; questions like how many ‘toilet’ breaks someone took during those exams.

It may seem cynical to some of you but I went back to college as a mature student and I was very surprised at the way exams were conducted and the potential for a student to commit fraud.

The last exam I took, the girl behind me and the boy next tome took toilet breaks; the girl within 20 minutes into the exam and the guy half way through. How can someone find time to take a toilet break when they’re stuck for time, unless of course it is a genuine request or there is an ulterior motive for taking that break?

There seems to be an automatic presumption out there that students who achieve exceptional marks did so honestly. From my experience, very intelligent students just as well as not so intelligent students are susceptible tobehaving dishonestly while in the pursuit of that ‘one’ grade yet it seems as though it is the one thing which is most overlooked by society when these ‘genius’ types make it into the papers.

Of course the only person who will be able to tell whether those results were achieved honestly or not is the student himself and possibly the invigilators, and he will always have to live with not knowing whether he had the potential to achieve the exceptional results he got so much credit for.

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the wholeworld, and lose his own soul?

Prodigious

*soul

Frosty McSnowballs

Aaaaaaaaaaand then?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

the back of beyond wrote: »

There seems to be an automatic presumption when someone gets7 A1s in their leaving Cert that they obtained those results honestly. If I wasan exam invigilator, I would ask serious questions if someone got flawlessresults; questions like how many ‘toilet’ breaks someone took during thoseexams.

It may seem cynical to some of you but I went back tocollege as a mature student and I was very surprised at the way exams wereconducted and the potential for a student to commit fraud.

The last exam I took, the girl behind me and the boy next tome took toilet breaks; the girl within 20 minutes into the exam and the guyhalf way through. How can someone find time to take a toilet break when they’restuck for time, unless of course it is a genuine request or there is an ulteriormotive for taking that break?

There seems to be an automatic presumption out there that studentswho achieve exceptional marks did so honestly. From my experience, very intelligentstudents just as well as not so intelligent students are susceptible tobehaving dishonestly while in the pursuit of that ‘one’ grade yet it seems asthough it is the one thing which is most overlooked by society when these ‘genius’types make it into the papers.

Of course the only person who will be able to tell whetherthose results were achieved honestly or not is the student himself and possiblythe invigilators, and he will always have to live with not knowing whether he hadthe potential to achieve the exceptional results he got so much credit for.

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the wholeworld, and lose his own sole?

Sour grapes OP?

enda1

I got top of my secondary school in my exams and never even considered cheating.

So no OP.

I've actually found that it those scraping a pass that are much more likely to cheat.

dmc17

If you can learn a year's worth on a toilet break then you're definitely a genius!

partyatmygaff

the back of beyond wrote: »

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the wholeworld, and lose his own sole?

The whole world for just a sole? Sounds like a fine trade to me.

the back of beyond

dmc17 wrote: »

If you can learn a year's worth on a toilet break then you're definitely a genius!

Reading the exam question first will definitely help.

dmc17

the back of beyond wrote: »

Reading the exam question first will definitely help.

There's usually more than 1 question on it though

Jimoslimos

They get found out at third level.

endacl

Jimoslimos wrote: »

They get found out at third level.

They get found out at work.

shopaholic01

Disappointed with your LC results, OP?

the back of beyond

enda1 wrote: »

I've actually found that it those scraping a pass that are much more likely to cheat.

So you're saying that leat intelligent people are the least honest and the most honest are the most intelligent?

So what if we live in a world full of cheats, how do we distinguish who is honest and who is not?

endacl

the back of beyond wrote: »

So what if we live in a world full of cheats, how do we distinguish who is honest and who is not?

Well, you'll just have to take our word for it.

pharmaton

Jimoslimos wrote: »

They get found out at third level.

this really, I mean fair play if they manage to get there but they'd have to fulfill the obligation by working hard at third level. I'd safely say though that those aiming to get A1s probably put their heart and souls into achieving that goal.

PinkLemonade

the back of beyond wrote: »

So you're saying that leat intelligent people are the least honest and the most honest are the most intelligent?

So what if we live in a world full of cheats, how do we distinguish who is honest and who is not?

Scraping a pass <> less intellegent

MadsL

All the more argument for;

1. Course work + exams
2. Interviewing for University and College places just like everywhere else in the world.
3. Credit for something other than academic subjects, ie community work or other projects.

Cody Pomeray

I can see how you could cheat your way from a B3 to a B1, but I can't see how someone could seriously manage to cheat their way to 7 A1s.

An A1 requires a thorough understanding of the material that you couldn't possibly fit on the back of your hand, or consult on your i-phone during a toilet break.

Mammanabammana

Can't read this in cloud. *wanders off*

endacl

MadsL wrote: »

All the more argument for;

1. Course work + exams
2. Interviewing for University and College places just like everywhere else in the world.
3. Credit for something other than academic subjects, ie community work or other projects.

Hey, good to see you back!

Chareth Cutestory

It didn't raise too many eyebrows when a couple of people got straight A1s in my school. They were the type of people who studied their arses off and having been in class with them for years I really had no cause to question their intelligence once the results came out. I imagine it's much the same for any case where someone achieves really good results.

That being said if a complete moron managed to cheat their way to straight As I'd be pretty impressed. Good for them, shoot for the stars!

the back of beyond

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I can see how you could cheat your way from a B3 to a B1, but I can't see how someone could seriously manage to cheat their way to 7 A1s.

An A1 requires a thorough understanding of the material that you couldn't possibly fit on the back of your hand, or consult on your i-phone during a toilet break.

Well what if cheating in an exam was the deciding factor in a student obtaining a 2.1 and not a 2.2 or an A1 and not an A2?

There are some very demanding parents out there.

Billiethepup

Who pissed on your cornflakes today OP?!!

Chances of using a toilet break to cheat your way to an A1 in LC - zero!

It's already been said but anyone cheating with scruffy notes in the toilets is scraping a pass...it goes nowhere, D's will get them nowhere in life anyway...leave 'em at it and dont loose sleep I say.

As for taking toilet breaks in college exams...some of my exams were sooooo long if you didn't take a nice little stroll to the jacks you were in big danger of suffering numb bum! I took two and often walked the long route!

the back of beyond

the back of beyond wrote: »

The last exam I took, the girl behind me and the boy next tome took toilet breaks; the girl within 20 minutes into the exam and the guy half way through. How can someone find time to take a toilet break when they’re stuck for time, unless of course it is a genuine request or there is an ulterior motive for taking that break?

So you established there is either a genuine or ulterior motive for a toilet break. I'll call you Sherlock from now on.

Is there some sort of third option I'm not aware of?

endacl

the back of beyond wrote: »

Well what if cheating in an exam was the deciding factor in a student obtaining a 2.1 and not a 2.2 or an A1 and not an A2?

There are some very demanding parents out there.

Honestly, the difference wouldn't be much. I've all sorts of qualifications. I've never been asked for 'results' though. In the real world, its the cert that matters, not the score on the day. I've three post-grads, ranging from a Desmond to a first. This fact matters to nobody but me though. Its personally nice to know it, but nobody's ever asked for the score. In my experience, once you're post LC, anything beyond a bare pass is a result as far as further education and/or employment is concerned.

Amirani

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I can see how you could cheat your way from a B3 to a B1, but I can't see how someone could seriously manage to cheat their way to 7 A1s.

An A1 requires a thorough understanding of the material that you couldn't possibly fit on the back of your hand, or consult on your i-phone during a toilet break.

Completely agree. It becomes even more the case in college. I remember someone in my class having numerous programs written on their legs and still getting less than 10% in their Java exam. :pac:

Doctor Strange

Ridiculous thread, especially pertaining to third level exams. In my college at least, you must empty your pockets and put all electronic devices under the desk. All toilets are searched by invigilators beforehand, and *even* if you got the notes in, it'd take more than one visit to the toilet to read the notes you'd need to make the first in a question, and an abnormal number of toilet visits would be queried.

the back of beyond

Candie wrote: »

So you established there is either a genuine or ulterior motive for a toilet break. I'll call you Sherlock from now on.

Is there some sort of third option I'm not aware of?

Was that supposed to be funny because I'm not laughing?

the back of beyond

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

Ridiculous thread, especially pertaining to third level exams. In my college at least, you must empty your pockets and put all electronic devices under the desk. All toilets are searched by invigilators beforehand, and *even* if you got the notes in, it'd take more than one visit to the toilet to read the notes you'd need to make the first in a question, and an abnormal number of toilet visits would be queried.

Have you ever heard of someone writing the answers on their legs? No invigilator will look there.

the back of beyond

You asked the question:

the back of beyond wrote: »

How can someone find time to take a toilet break when they’re stuck for time, unless of course it is a genuine request or there is an ulterior motive for taking that break?

And I'm asking what possible third option there might be, since you've mentioned ulterior motives and genuine reasons.

Alien abduction? Need a smoke/valium?

the back of beyond

Candie wrote: »

You asked the question:




And I'm asking what possible third option there might be, since you've mentioned ulterior motives and genuine reasons.

Alien abduction? Need a smoke/valium?

You'd have to have to have taken breaks to know. But they're the only two options I'm aware of.

Smoke? You may be on to something there.

Amirani

the back of beyond wrote: »

Have you ever heard of someone writing the answers on their legs? No invigilator will look there.

How many answers could you write? How useful would they be?

Doctor Strange

the back of beyond wrote: »

Have you ever heard of someone writing the answers on their legs? No invigilator will look there.

Again, still going to require multiple readings. But if someone can fit the guts of a detailed multiple page essay on their legs and memorise it from one look, they'd likely do it the honest way.

dmc17

NiallSparky wrote: »

How many answers could you write? How useful would they be?

Well I suppose you wouldn't need to bring the newspaper to the jacks with you

prettygurrly

9 A1s isn't 9 flawless exams...A1 is over 90%. I agree with others, those who cheat are usually scraping a pass.

Re toilet breaks, sometimes you need a break PARTICULARLY in long exams. Give your head some space...particularly in mathsy type exams...I often need distraction to see the correct answer - facebook is handy for that but sitting in the loo and breathing will do in an exam

Doctor Strange

prettygurrly wrote: »

Re toilet breaks, sometimes you need a break PARTICULARLY in long exams. Give your head some space...particularly in mathsy type exams...I often need distraction to see the correct answer - facebook is handy for that but sitting in the loo and breathing will do in an exam

That too. Sometimes it's just good for the walk to clear your head and get a fresh perspective on the exam when you get back.

the back of beyond

prettygurrly wrote: »

9 A1s isn't 9 flawless exams...A1 is over 90%. I agree with others, those who cheat are usually scraping a pass.

Is this just academia or does it apply to other areas?

Boombastic

Nobody ever etched formulas in to their ruler with a wasted pen so the indentation would only show up when it catches the light the right way, ever...not that I know of anyway

burrenguy

this could be big..

Boombastic

burrenguy wrote: »

this could be big..

It missed one..

Step 6: Profit

Celly Smunt

MadsL wrote: »

All the more argument for;

1. Course work + exams
2. Interviewing for University and College places just like everywhere else in the world.
3. Credit for something other than academic subjects, ie community work or other projects.

Its Ireland,could you imagine the types of nepotism and brown envelopes that would pass hands to get little darlings into Trinity and UCD.

I admire the CAO system and its anonomity,it puts everybody on an even playing field regardless of background and is wholey academic.

endacl

burrenguy wrote: »

this could be big..

Actually, that raises an interesting point. Our exam systems here have been historically geared towards rewarding the retention and regurgitation of vast amounts of facts. It does little to examine an ability to intelligently 'use' those facts.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see a system that acknowledged the reality that a library can be carried in a pocket, and tested an ability to use the facts contained in that library?

wretcheddomain

This is a ridiculous thread.

The OP appears to be suggesting that the difference between a genius student and a complete failure rests on a toilet break in each examination. What a preposterous assumption.

First and foremost, if a student is good enough to even get 7 A2's nevermind 7 A1's, then that alone proves their capability and shows their intent to score well.

Second, what possible fact could you discover amid a piss that would be so significant that would raise your score from an B3 to an A1 or any other such combination? A toilet break can't possibly hold such significance.

Thirdly, you've eaten too many sour grapes because you had to return as a mature student as you couldn't cheat effectively the first time. Remember, the intelligent students know how to cheat, there's a reason you got caught.

/thread

the back of beyond

wretcheddomain wrote: »

This is a ridiculous thread.

The OP appears to be suggesting that the difference between a genius student and a complete failure rests on a toilet break in each examination. What a preposterous assumption.

First and foremost, if a student is good enough to even get 7 A2's nevermind 7 A1's, then that alone proves their capability and shows their intent to score well.

Second, what possible fact could you discover amid a piss that would be so significant that would raise your score from an B3 to an A1 or any other such combination? A toilet break can't possibly hold such significance.

Thirdly, you've eaten too many sour grapes because you had to return as a mature student as you couldn't cheat effectively the first time. Remember, the intelligent students know how to cheat, there's a reason you got caught.

/thread

If we applied your logic to sport Lance Armstrong may of have never been caught for doping :rolleyes:

token101

burrenguy wrote: »

this could be big..

Until exam halls decide to ban watches.....

endacl wrote: »

Actually, that raises an interesting point. Our exam systems here have been historically geared towards rewarding the retention and regurgitation of vast amounts of facts. It does little to examine an ability to intelligently 'use' those facts.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see a system that acknowledged the reality that a library can be carried in a pocket, and tested an ability to use the facts contained in that library?

Wouldn't that just be an open book(s) exam?

endacl

token101 wrote: »

Until exam halls decide to ban watches.....



Wouldn't that just be an open book(s) exam?

It would indeed. Common at third level. More so at post grad. Why not at LC. The closest second level ever came was log tables in a maths exam.