Virtual caddy v real caddy.

Roger_007

This subject came up on another thread in connection with what is allowed or not allowed in relation to electronic devices on the golf course.
DMDs are ok if local rules say so but only if distance information is all that they can do. Any device which can give other information such as weather conditions, slope information, direction information, (compass) or club recommendation is apparently not allowed. The reason for this, I presume, is that such information would be deemed to give an unfair advantage.
However if a golfer employs a caddy he/she can get all the information he wants from his/her caddy that is not allowed to be obtained by electronic means. This, apparently, does not confer an unfair advantage.
The information the golfer receives is the same, it is just the source that is different.
Does anyone understand the thinking behind this distinction other than to protect the employment prospects of caddies?

kiers47

Roger_007 wrote: »

This subject came up on another thread in connection with what is allowed or not allowed in relation to electronic devices on the golf course.
DMDs are ok if local rules say so but only if distance information is all that they can do. Any device which can give other information such as weather conditions, slope information, direction information, (compass) or club recommendation is apparently not allowed. The reason for this, I presume, is that such information would be deemed to give an unfair advantage.
However if a golfer employs a caddy he/she can get all the information he wants from his/her caddy that is not allowed to be obtained by electronic means. This, apparently, does not confer an unfair advantage.
The information the golfer receives is the same, it is just the source that is different.
Does anyone understand the thinking behind this distinction other than to protect the employment prospects of caddies?

What could a caddie tell you that the golfer would not have the means of obtaining himself?

John Divney

A real caddy is still using guesswork, I suppose. And in the golfing tradition a caddy has always seen to part of your team, so to speak, so getting and talking about information is fine.

Asking the laws of Physics is probably seen as a push too far.

Roger_007

kiers47 wrote: »

What could a caddie tell you that the golfer would not have the means of obtaining himself?

A great deal if the caddie is familiar with the course and you are not. Anyway, I think you are missing the point, either a golfer is allowed to receive advice or not.

kiers47

Roger_007 wrote: »

A great deal if the caddie is familiar with the course and you are not. Anyway, I think you are missing the point, either a golfer is allowed to receive advice or not.

I think you are missing the point there is no reason a golfer couldn't obtain everything he needs to know if he was also familiar with the course. The phone GPS is giving you additional info which is against the rules (most of which are variables and change regularly like wind speed, temperature etc..). The caddie is merely providing info which never changes (ie yardage, where not to be, breaks on greens).

PARlance

Roger_007 wrote: »

A great deal if the caddie is familiar with the course and you are not. Anyway, I think you are missing the point, either a golfer is allowed to receive advice or not.

A golfer can not ask for, or give advice.... Simple as that....well maybe not

Where it gets complicated, and what you might be missing is
1. The definition of advice, and
2. Who they are asking or giving advice from/to (i.e you can ask/give advice from a caddie or partner in a team event, he has to be on your team)

Here's a decent article on it

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2009/02/golf-rules-asking-for-and-giving-advice.html

DuckSlice

You can ask your opponent distances aswell, but you can't ask him for a line, although I'm not sure is that only on the green!

Your caddie cant tell you temperature, or wind direction exactly. but they can give you an idea. an electronic device can give you fairly accurate temp and wind direction. while an electronic device can tell you which club to take you are not allowed this advice, but there is nothing stopping you from writing down your yardages for each club to have with you in your pocket.

i can see your point. but i dont think the rule is to protect caddies jobs, i think the pros will have a caddie with them all the time as electronics cant give you a line of a putt of tell you where you need to be on the fairway. the rule is probably there because the governing bodies are generally old fashioned.

Roger_007

ajcurry123 wrote: »

A golfer can not ask for, or give advice.... Simple as that....well maybe not

Where it gets complicated, and what you might be missing is
1. The definition of advice, and
2. Who they are asking or giving advice from/to (i.e you can ask/give advice from a caddie or partner in a team event, he has to be on your team)

Here's a decent article on it

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2009/02/golf-rules-asking-for-and-giving-advice.html

Please stick to the topic. It is not a question of what constitutes advice or otherwise.
The question is why is a golfer allowed to receive certain information from a caddy, (or a partner), but is not allowed to receive the same information from an electronic device. It is the thinking behind the rule which is the issue.

Roger_007

John Divney wrote: »

A real caddy is still using guesswork, I suppose. And in the golfing tradition a caddy has always seen to part of your team, so to speak, so getting and talking about information is fine.

Asking the laws of Physics is probably seen as a push too far.

A caddy just using guesswork is not much use other than carrying your bag. If a golfer says to his caddy "what club should I use here", and the caddy replies "well it could be a 7, or a 9 but I'm only guessing". Exit caddy.

John Divney

Roger_007 wrote: »

A caddy just using guesswork is not much use other than carrying your bag. If a golfer says to his caddy "what club should I use here", and the caddy replies "well it could be a 7, or a 9 but I'm only guessing". Exit caddy.

Well, your caddy shouldn't be telling you what club to use, only the yardage, because we aren't on the PGA tour, and he doesn't know the first thing about your clubs, and how far you hit them.

And they are still using estimated yardages, not exact measurements, and they will be wrong on some occasions, because they are using their eyrs as referneces, not a rangefinder. But that's noit what I mean because rangefinders are legal, for the point you make, a caddy can tell you yardage anyway.

But I'm talking about the wind, and reading greens. They definitely are using educated guesswork, professional caddies misread greens all the time.

Using a phone with a app that tells you slope and undulation, wind, or whatever, is a different ball game.

mike12

In theory the thing they use on sky sports(Aim Point i think it's called) to read the putts u could have that on your phone so it would tell u from this spot on the green u need to aim 6 inches outside left, it's 4 inches down hill.
It's that type of info that is not available that they don't want you to have.
Mike

ssbob

All day long I would take my buddy as a caddy over my phone/gps, he is likely to know exactly how I hit the ball.....

Like for instance I might say to Kiers47: "You are mad to use your LW here when you are literally only 6inches from the putting surface"

You don't get that from a phone....but in general I would prob agree it seems a stupid rule!

Roger_007

mike12 wrote: »

In theory the thing they use on sky sports(Aim Point i think it's called) to read the putts u could have that on your phone so it would tell u from this spot on the green u need to aim 6 inches outside left, it's 4 inches down hill.
It's that type of info that is not available that they don't want you to have.
Mike

There is no such app available as far as I'm aware. Do you know the name of it?

P.S. I don't understand you last sentence. If the info is not available, how can you have it.

P.S. P. S. The technology that Sky use is a very sophisticated and expensive system. I saw it being used at the Irish Open in Carton House. It's a first cousin of Hawkeye. Are you seriously suggesting that a poor club golfer would be investing in that.

GreeBo

Roger_007 wrote: »

There is no such app available as far as I'm aware. Do you know the name of it?

P.S. I don't understand you last sentence. If the info is not available, how can you have it.

P.S. P. S. The technology that Sky use is a very sophisticated and expensive system. I saw it being used at the Irish Open in Carton House. It's a first cousin of Hawkeye. Are you seriously suggesting that a poor club golfer would be investing in that.

He wouldnt have to invest in that, he could just watch sky go.


You keep stating thats its the *same* information.
Its not the same information. Its the same *subject* i.e. wind, slope, etc, but the info is not the same.

Thats the distinction.

Roger_007

GreeBo wrote: »

He wouldnt have to invest in that, he could just watch sky go.


You keep stating thats its the *same* information.
Its not the same information. Its the same *subject* i.e. wind, slope, etc, but the info is not the same.

Thats the distinction.

Sky Go!! I assume you mean Sky's online television service. What has this got to with what we are talking about? When did you last play in a tournament that was being televised live by Sky? In any case there is nothing to prevent players, caddies or coaches in televised events watching earlier play in tournaments that they are involved in, before they go out to play.
It is a caddy's job to know all about slopes and other course conditions and features. There is no phone app that would have information about the course that a good caddy would not have.
As for weather information, that is just a joke. Wind speed and direction varies all the time, most people can tell if it's raining or if it's warm or cold. All your phone will tell you is the local weather forecast which is public knowledge anyway.
The 'compass' issue is hard to fathom. You can determine the direction of any hole before you go out. It has never been known for any hole to change it's direction or location during the play of a round.
So what precisely is the information that a phone app could give you that a caddy could not? That is the question.

Senna

Roger_007 wrote: »

DMDs are ok if local rules say so

So are there clubs that dont allow (non phone) DMDs?

Roger_007 wrote: »

The 'compass' issue is hard to fathom.

I agree, its a joke. In an earlier thread the reason for the ban on a compass is, if you are on a sheltered tee, you could go on the internet and find out the wind direction, then look at the compass and judge were the wind is blowing.:rolleyes:

Its a rule that really pisses me off, I have a Bushnell Neo that really is a piece of crap, but I have a phone that does a much better job, but I'm probably going to be forced to buy a different (more reliable) DMD just to use in comp because of this stupid rule. There really is a need for amateur rules and pro rules.

DuckSlice

Senna wrote: »

So are there clubs that dont allow (non phone) DMDs?
.

There has to be a local rule in place before any DMD's are used except if it is an official GUI event.

GreeBo

Roger_007 wrote: »

Sky Go!! I assume you mean Sky's online television service. What has this got to with what we are talking about? When did you last play in a tournament that was being televised live by Sky? In any case there is nothing to prevent players, caddies or coaches in televised events watching earlier play in tournaments that they are involved in, before they go out to play.
It is a caddy's job to know all about slopes and other course conditions and features. There is no phone app that would have information about the course that a good caddy would not have.
As for weather information, that is just a joke. Wind speed and direction varies all the time, most people can tell if it's raining or if it's warm or cold. All your phone will tell you is the local weather forecast which is public knowledge anyway.
The 'compass' issue is hard to fathom. You can determine the direction of any hole before you go out. It has never been known for any hole to change it's direction or location during the play of a round.
So what precisely is the information that a phone app could give you that a caddy could not? That is the question.

it's relevant because a player could be watching themselves on tv live and get an exact read for their putt.

as stated the compass gives you the vital information about your bearing.this makes all the other information (wind, slope, etc) relevant.
it's no good knowing there is a north wind if you don't know where north is.

a phone app can give live information,a caddy is interpreting recorded information.

personally I think they should allow any device and leave it up to the players honesty to use it within the rules of the game; the same way every other rule is enforced.
I could just as easily use a spirit level on the green as use my phone or an anenometer, but I chose not to cheat imperially, why not trust me digitally?

Senna

etxp wrote: »

There has to be a local rule in place before any DMD's are used except if it is an official GUI event.

All the local courses I play (only 3-4) allow DMD's, I was just wondering do many clubs not allow them?

whizbang

The whole definition of advice is a big deep pool of sh!t at the moment.

Giving and taking advise, does not include rain, temperature,compass points, wind speed and direction, slope etc.
These are all statements of fact, and likewise with the distance from the green, this is not advise.
- therefore there should not be any restriction on this information.

Likewise, its bad form to ask your competitor what iron he just hit into the green, but this also is not advise.
If you asked him why he hit a 7iron, then that is advise.

Phones, DMD's only give you facts. there maybe apps that can help advise your play, but this falls back into the same category as honesty and fair play. We amateurs are already overloaded with self applied rules and penalties, next thing we will have traffic lights on the fairways.

GreeBo

whizbang wrote: »

Likewise, its bad form to ask your competitor what iron he just hit into the green, but this also is not advise.
If you asked him why he hit a 7iron, then that is advise.
.

I think you'll find its more than bad form...

whizbang

Yeah, I know its against the rules, gives unfair advantage etc, But its still a statement of fact.
-How do you define facts as advise..?

Rikand

You get statements of "fact" from a gps device.

You get statements of "opinions" from a caddy.

Gps :: " wind blowing s/sw at 17mph"

Caddy :: " feels like shes blowing off the left buddy "

Rikand

^^ oops - didnt see there was a second page

whizbang

As the rules allow facts, and not advise, thenceforth caddies are to replaced by electronic devices that preclude the use of slang, accent or any other form of vagueness of the pure english language, that could be misinterpreted as advise.

GreeBo

whizbang wrote: »

Yeah, I know its against the rules, gives unfair advantage etc, But its still a statement of fact.
-How do you define facts as advise..?

the rules don't mention facts, the wording is "matters of public information"
the club your playing partner just hit is not public information.

Roger_007

GreeBo wrote: »

the rules don't mention facts, the wording is "matters of public information"
the club your playing partner just hit is not public information.

However, there is nothing in the rules to stop you from having a sneaky look as your playing partner takes his club from, or replaces it, in the bag. I discovered this when doing one of those R&A rules quizzes because no 'advice' is sought or given.
This happens all the time, particularly on par 3s.

GreeBo

Roger_007 wrote: »

However, there is nothing in the rules to stop you from having a sneaky look as your playing partner takes his club from, or replaces it, in the bag. I discovered this when doing one of those R&A rules quizzes because no 'advice' is sought or given.
This happens all the time, particularly on par 3s.

depends on how you define sneaky look.
You can look, but you can't move stuff out of the way to discover what club is missing etc.

TheDoc

Hold on there has been references here that "caddies" use guesswork.

Are you having a laugh?

Caddies at a proffesional level go out on the courses with a number of instruments to get precise measurements of gradient, slop and distance around the course for all manner of scenarios.

Maybe I misread above, but saying caddies use guesswork is actually disgracefully wrong. Maybe if your mate is caddying for you in a local comp perhaps, but that is someone carrying your bag. An actual caddie deploys a serious amount of research and work in the run up to an event.

Rikand

Caddies still have to take a guess at the wind though

The GPS device will tell you exactly what the wind is doing, speed and direction

U.P.O.

mike12 wrote: »

In theory the thing they use on sky sports(Aim Point i think it's called) to read the putts u could have that on your phone so it would tell u from this spot on the green u need to aim 6 inches outside left, it's 4 inches down hill.
It's that type of info that is not available that they don't want you to have.
Mike

Roger_007 wrote: »

There is no such app available as far as I'm aware. Do you know the name of it?

P.S. I don't understand you last sentence. If the info is not available, how can you have it.

P.S. P. S. The technology that Sky use is a very sophisticated and expensive system. I saw it being used at the Irish Open in Carton House. It's a first cousin of Hawkeye. Are you seriously suggesting that a poor club golfer would be investing in that.

You'd look ridiculous but in theory, if you were on the green wondering if it slopes left to right, or right to left etc.... you could have a spirit level app on your phone that could tell you the slope of the green They are readily available and free

Roger_007

Rickylovesuall wrote: »

Caddies still have to take a guess at the wind though

The GPS device will tell you exactly what the wind is doing, speed and direction

A GPS device will tell you no such thing. GPS will only tell you your position and the distance to another position. If your device also has weather information, that will only be the general weather conditions for the area. Unless a device is fitted with a anemometer and a wind-sock, it will not tell you the actual wind-speed and direction for the exact point on the course where you are playing from or playing to.

TheDoc

Rickylovesuall wrote: »

Caddies still have to take a guess at the wind though

The GPS device will tell you exactly what the wind is doing, speed and direction

I don't get the problem though. What does the average golfer do different if he knows wind speed?

I can pop, like everyone else, a bit of grass and see the wind direction and speed.

Sorry but I think people are getting a touch OTT here, your average club golfer is not going to know or benefit from anything coming from wind stats. I just don't buy into that.

So there is some advantage to a 15 handicapper for him knowing that the wind is 23kmph and coming from the North east, against me chucking some grass and knowing the wind is ****ing strong and coming from the right?

Roger_007

U.P.O. wrote: »

You'd look ridiculous but in theory, if you were on the green wondering if it slopes left to right, or right to left etc.... you could have a spirit level app on your phone that could tell you the slope of the green They are readily available and free

You would have to place your device on the putting surface for this to work. I think somebody might notice.:rolleyes:

U.P.O.

Roger_007 wrote: »

You would have to place your device on the putting surface for this to work. I think somebody might notice.:rolleyes:

You could have a device like 3 bays on the butt of your driver (dont tell me the three 50 year olds you are in a round with would know what that is or notice it) and then whilst on the walk to your next shot pretend to be looking at the distance on your phone but instead be looking to see exactly why you sliced that last drive so you can fix it for your next shot. Get detailed info on swing path, club face etc.... Surely thats an advantage that a caddie cant give.

The point is phones have so much capability and its costantly evolving. I think its simply too much for the R&A to police so its easier to just ban them.

Of coure theres the argument to just let people use them for distance measuring only but obviously the R&A have took the stance that they dont trust people to only use them for this and its too much to police.....

Roger_007

U.P.O. wrote: »

You could have a device like 3 bays on the butt of your driver (dont tell me the three 50 year olds you are in a round with would know what that is or notice it) and then whilst on the walk to your next shot pretend to be looking at the distance on your phone but instead be looking to see exactly why you sliced that last drive so you can fix it for your next shot. Get detailed info on swing path, club face etc.... Surely thats an advantage that a caddie cant give.

The point is phones have so much capability and its costantly evolving. I think its simply too much for the R&A to police so its easier to just ban them.

Of coure theres the argument to just let people use them for distance measuring only but obviously the R&A have took the stance that they dont trust people to only use them for this and its too much to police.....

Leaving aside your insulting remark about 50 year olds. ( I am one of those), I think you are getting a little far-fetched with your argument. 3bays is a separate dedicated device, it is not a smart-phone, and it's use would be subject to a separate ruling.
The game of golf, particularly at amateur level, depends entirely on players complying with the rules as a matter of honour. The R&A don't police the game, they set out the rules and expect players to observe the rules.
If players cannot be trusted to police themselves, then I for one would give up the game.

TheDoc

U.P.O. wrote: »

You could have a device like 3 bays on the butt of your driver (dont tell me the three 50 year olds you are in a round with would know what that is or notice it) and then whilst on the walk to your next shot pretend to be looking at the distance on your phone but instead be looking to see exactly why you sliced that last drive so you can fix it for your next shot. Get detailed info on swing path, club face etc.... Surely thats an advantage that a caddie cant give.

I don't think you have a good understanding what a caddie does to be fair....

My Da on occasion will point **** out to me during a round, I have a horrible nack of not extending my driver through impact, finishing too early, and it leads to a hook. Both he and his friend know the problem, and if I start doing it, just let me know.

A caddie can provide this advice for the player. You do realise most caddies are scratch golfers themselves right?

kiers47

Tbh I don't know how this thread is still going. Yes it might be a silly rule and yes a lot of people might not agree with it. But it's the rule. There are numerous other rules that are just plane ridiculous to but that's the game we play. The anchoring ban will be in in 2016 you might not agree with that either but it will be the rules and there should be a penalty for breaching the rules.
If you dislike or have a problem with the rules don't play the game.

Roger_007

kiers47 wrote: »

Tbh I don't know how this thread is still going. Yes it might be a silly rule and yes a lot of people might not agree with it. But it's the rule. There are numerous other rules that are just plane ridiculous to but that's the game we play. The anchoring ban will be in in 2016 you might not agree with that either but it will be the rules and there should be a penalty for breaching the rules.
If you dislike or have a problem with the rules don't play the game.

I think the general rule on Boards is that a thread can open as long as anyone wishes to contribute. There is no obligation on anyone to follow any thread. There is a button that says 'Unfollow'.

If every golfer who disliked or disagreed with a particular rule gave up the game there would be very few golfers left. Ditto for all other sports. It is precisely because there are problems with rules that rule changes are made from time to time, e.g. the anchoring ban, (which incidentally I agree with).

bustercherry

I think the problem is the majority of people contributing to these threads do not understand the full capabilities of smart phones.

It's very easy to knock out an augmented reality app which could effectively give you the same information Aim Point provides. If you really wanted to go mad, you could combine GPS, slope information, wind direction, temperature, the ball your playing etc.... and the providing you initially calibrate your club distances; the App could provide you the club to hit based on all the above.

As someone has pointed out already, it could suddenly become a nightmare to regulate against; so the easiest approach is to ban such devices. It's effectively the same rangefinders with slope, they are not legal in competition irrespective of whether you use the slope functionality or not.