Atheists are smarter than Theists

bogwalrus

A team led by Miron Zuckerman of the University of Rochester found “a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity” in 53 out of 63 studies

Even in extreme old age, intelligent people are less likely to believe, the researchers found - and the reasons why people with high IQs shun religion may not be as simple as previously thought.

Previous studies have tended to assume that intelligent people simply “know better”, the researchers write - but the reasons may be more complex.

For instance, intelligent people are more likely to be married, and more likely to be successful in life - and this may mean they “need” religion less.

The studies used in Zuckerman's paper included a life-long analysis of the beliefs of a group of 1,500 gifted children - those with IQs over 135 - in a study which began in 1921 and continues today.

Even at 75 to 91 years of age, the children from Lewis Terman’s study scored lower for religiosity than the general population - contrary to the widely held belief that people turn to God as they age. The researchers noted that data was lacking about religious attitudes in old age and say, “Additional research is needed to resolve this issue.”

As early as 1958, Michael Argyle concluded, “Although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs, and rather less likely to have pro-religious attitudes.”

A 1916 study quoted in Zuckerman’s paper (Leuba) found that, “58% of randomly selected scientists in the United States expressed disbelief in, or doubt regarding the existence of God; this proportion rose to nearly 70% for the most eminent scientists.”

The paper, published in the academic journal Personality and Social Psychology Review, said “Most extant explanations (of a negative relation) share one central theme—the premise that religious beliefs are irrational, not anchored in science, not testable and, therefore, unappealing to intelligent people who “know better.”

The answer may, however, be more complex. Intelligent people may simply be able to provide themselves with the psychological benefits offered by religion - such as “self-regulation and self-enhancement”, because they are more likely to be successful, and have stable lives.

“Intelligent people typically spend more time in school—a form of self-regulation that may yield long-term benefits,” the researchers write. “More intelligent people get higher level jobs (and better employment (and higher salary) may lead to higher self-esteem, and encourage personal control beliefs.”

“Last, more intelligent people are more likely to get and stay married (greater attachment), though for intelligent people, that too comes later in life. We therefore suggest that as intelligent people move from young adulthood to adulthood and then to middle age, the benefits of intelligence may continue to accrue.”

The researchers suggest that further research on the “function” of religion may reveal more..

“People possessing the functions that religion provides are likely to adopt atheism, people lacking these very functions (e.g., the poor, the helpless) are likely to adopt theism,” the researchers wrote.

Turtwig

frozenfrozen

most theists just blindly accept their faith they've been raised with. The people who question this faith and end up being atheistic in their views are going to be inherently smarter since they're actually thinking about things that effect them and the society they're a part of.

Theists and atheists are not races of people so one can not as a rule be smarter than the other...

bogwalrus

One can be smarter than the other if one group is restricted by its religion. To a Christian the bible explains everything for you so pretty much just follow it and don't bother using that lovely spongy brain of yours. By not using the brain to question life and other deep thoughts it will remain pretty simple.

bogwalrus

I just realised I just pretty much repeated what you said. lol. Great minds eh?:)

Absoluvely

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Theists and atheists are not races of people so one can not as a rule be smarter than the other...

The only way one group of people can be smarter than another group of people is if they're different races? :eek:

Or did you mean something else?

gaynorvader

bogwalrus wrote: »

I just realised I just pretty much repeated what you said. lol. Great minds eh?:)

Groupthinkhivemindatheistevilalienscum! :pac:

badspealler

Uh oh... This old argument again.

Damn it, where are the chocolate Kimberley's...

Karl Stein

Is smart the same as IQ?

shleedance

You're only as smart as your fedora. :P

Sarky

Hmm. I am awfully clever. And handsome, too. But there are probably more than a few religious folks out there who are more erudite, traveled and educated. Maybe not as good looking, but we all have our crosses to bear. Well, non-Christians don't because that cross stuff is just silly, but I'm sure you know what I mean.

Zen65

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Theists and atheists are not races of people so one can not as a rule be smarter than the other...

Well yes, one can.

To think that race is the deciding factor in intelligence is, almost by definition, racist.

The Theist / Atheist indicator of intelligence sounds perfectly reasonable. Similarly (there may not have been studies to prove this yet) it is reasonable to postulate that people who appear on daytime TV shows like "Jeremy Kyle" are probably of lower intelligence than those who do not.

Z

Kidchameleon

People who like to feel more intelligent than they actually are by slagging off religious people are not very intelligent IMHO

MrPudding

Kidchameleon wrote: »

People who like to feel more intelligent than they actually are by slagging off religious people are not very intelligent IMHO

So do you have an issue with the study under discussion, or are you simply spouting sh1t as usual?

MrP

Sarky

Kidchameleon wrote: »

People who like to feel more intelligent than they actually are by slagging off religious people are not very intelligent IMHO

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

Hate me because I'm right.

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

People who like to feel more intelligent than they actually are by slagging off religious people are not very intelligent IMHO

Quite right, though I can't say I've ever knowingly met one of these silly people in perhaps fifteen years of hanging around atheists.

Do you reckon it's a common problem, or are you just trolling?

endacl

I have an opinion on this matter, but I'm too smart to offer it here.

Kidchameleon

robindch wrote: »

Quite right, though I can't say I've ever knowingly met one of these silly people in perhaps fifteen years of hanging around atheists.

Do you reckon it's a common problem, or are you just trolling?

Unfortunately its very common rob. Atheists thinking they are better than everyone else simply because they don't have a religion. I guess your lucky that you haven't met the atheists I have, either that or your just like them and cant see the wood from the trees. Ive been through the argument too many times before about all the theists over the history of humanity who changed the world with their intelligence so I wont do it again, you know yourself anyhow.

Delirium

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Unfortunately its very common rob. Atheists thinking they are better than everyone else simply because they don't have a religion. I guess your lucky that you haven't met the atheists I have, either that or your just like them and cant see the wood from the trees. Ive been through the argument too many times before about all the theists over the history of humanity who changed the world with their intelligence so I wont do it again, you know yourself anyhow.

I'm the same as rob, never met any atheists who have said they're more intelligent than theists because they're atheists.

Anyone here actually met such atheists? There such be a sizeable number of you as KC is saying it is very common.

gaynorvader

koth wrote: »

I'm the same as rob, never met any atheists who have said they're more intelligent than theists because they're atheists.

Anyone here actually met such atheists? There such be a sizeable number of you as KC is saying it is very common.

I think it's in reference to the smug atheist you see around the place who looks down their nose at theists and generally don't understand what atheism actually is and are usually just claiming to be one to annoy their parents.
I certainly wouldn't call it common among adults though.

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Atheists thinking they are better than everyone else simply because they don't have a religion.

That's a fairly grand, sweeping statement -- would you care to back it up with some evidence? Or would you like to withdraw it?

robindch

gaynorvader wrote: »

I think it's in reference to the smug atheist you see around the place who looks down their nose at theists and generally don't understand what atheism actually is and are usually just claiming to be one to annoy their parents.

Hard to know, though I can't say that I've met many of those either. And given the way some parents react to having their beliefs challenged, you'd want to be a brave kid to try:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVmRui1oFF0

seamus

This is a well-trodden and proven statistic at this point, a number of studies have confirmed a inverted correlation between intelligence/IQ/education and religiosity.

What needs to be avoided is the idea that atheists are innately more intelligent though. Most likely the reason for this correlation is education. As one becomes more educated, the more accustomed one becomes to asking questions and not accepting what an authority figure tells you as blind fact.

It's no coincidence that there's a link between poverty and religion, because those of lower income tend to have received less education.

smacl

koth wrote: »

I'm the same as rob, never met any atheists who have said they're more intelligent than theists because they're atheists.

Yet it seems to be the point of the study in the opening post, which implies that it's authors at least fall into that category. Of course you could reasonably flip the causal relationship and say that because people are intelligent they tend towards atheism. The study after all only gets as far as correlation.

Personally, I would doubt the veracity of the study, as very many studies that group people by IQ (whatever that is or is not) tend to be divisive and collapse at a later date under close scrutiny. Interesting that racial groups were brought up earlier in the thread, as previous similar studies in the past tried to correlate race with IQ, and have since been debunked. Reliable IQ tests are notoriously difficult to devise and the notion of IQ is dismissed by many as a statistical artifact of little value.

Looking at the number of historical figures considered to be great thinkers in their past shows that many of them had deep held religious belief. As an atheist, this leads me to suspect that there is no reasonable correlation between religious belief and intellectual ability. I don't really buy the whole dogma argument either, as we all take on articles of faith on a regular basis, from the food we consider healthy to eat, to the technologies we use. In terms of questionable faith, I wouldn't differentiate particularly between someone who believes in a God and someone who uses homeopathic remedies.

gaynorvader

robindch wrote: »

Hard to know, though I can't say that I've met many of those either. And given the way some parents react to having their beliefs challenged, you'd want to be a brave kid to try:

I've certainly encountered them online and several of my younger brother's friends seem to be of that group. I think it's probably fairly unique to the generation of current teenagers and younger. I'm guessing you're older and are similar to myself in that a lot of your old school colleagues would have been religious by default?

smacl wrote: »

...

Looking at the number of historical figures considered to be great thinkers in their past shows that many of them had deep held religious belief. As an atheist, this leads me to suspect that there is no reasonable correlation between religious belief and intellectual ability. I don't really buy the whole dogma argument either, as we all take on articles of faith on a regular basis, from the food we consider healthy to eat, to the technologies we use. In terms of questionable faith, I wouldn't differentiate particularly between someone who believes in a God and someone who uses homeopathic remedies.

This is such a poor argument. The incredibly intelligent people of the past that were religious often didn't have access to the same information we do today. Books were the primary source of knowledge, and reading those books could only be passed by word of mouth. Today we have the internet, and a lot more evidence and data supporting atheism. It's a worthless argument.

Delirium

smacl wrote: »

Yet it seems to be the point of the study in the opening post, which implies that it's authors at least fall into that category. Of course you could reasonably flip the causal relationship and say that because people are intelligent they tend towards atheism. The study after all only gets as far as correlation.

Personally, I would doubt the veracity of the study, as very many studies that group people by IQ (whatever that is or is not) tend to be divisive and collapse at a later date under close scrutiny. Interesting that racial groups were brought up earlier in the thread, as previous similar studies in the past tried to correlate race with IQ, and have since been debunked. Reliable IQ tests are notoriously difficult to devise and the notion of IQ is dismissed by many as a statistical artifact of little value.

Looking at the number of historical figures considered to be great thinkers in their past shows that many of them had deep held religious belief. As an atheist, this leads me to suspect that there is no reasonable correlation between religious belief and intellectual ability. I don't really buy the whole dogma argument either, as we all take on articles of faith on a regular basis, from the food we consider healthy to eat, to the technologies we use. In terms of questionable faith, I wouldn't differentiate particularly between someone who believes in a God and someone who uses homeopathic remedies.

From my reading of the OP, the bolded is exactly what the text is saying. It's not saying atheism makes you smarter but that as intelligence grows a person is more likely to lean towards atheism.

That doesn't, at least to me, say that atheists are smarter than theists.

smacl

seamus wrote: »

It's no coincidence that there's a link between poverty and religion, because those of lower income tend to have received less education.

Or those with bleaker prospects for the future have something to look forward to. Religion has always been a fantastic mechanism for controlling the struggling masses, and what greater prize for being good (as defined by those wielding power) than life everlasting?

Bannasidhe

=gaynorvader;86006550


This is such a poor argument. The incredibly intelligent people of the past that were religious often didn't have access to the same information we do today. Books were the primary source of knowledge, and reading those books could only be passed by word of mouth. Today we have the internet, and a lot more evidence and data supporting atheism. It's a worthless argument.

Perhaps they were intelligent enough to keep their atheism quiet rather than go down the martyr route.

I recall peering into the dark, damp, dank dungeons of the Doge's Palace in Venice having just crossed the Bridge of Sighs and I feel no shame in saying that if given the choice between being flung into the dank depths or jumping on command my only question would have been 'how high would you like me to jump?'

Dying for one's beliefs smacks of religious mindset- dying for one's lack of belief smacks of carelessness.

padser

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Theists and atheists are not races of people so one can not as a rule be smarter than the other...

Wow, that's among the stupidest comments I've ever read on boards (and I've been here for years).

It's difficult to know where to begin with it.....

Why would you think people need to a race in order to be as a group smarter than another group? Nobel Prize winners are probably smarter on average then people who fail their first year university exams. Neither groups are "races" and I'm sure there will be some people in the Nobel Prize winning group not as smart as some people in the "failing" group, but on average the statement is probably true. Even if it isn't, there is no reason to assume there average level of intelligence is the same.

smacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Dying for one's beliefs smacks of religious mindset- dying for one's lack of belief smacks of carelessness.

It's a good point, though there has been no shortage of theist intellectuals in more recent times that would not have suffered persecution were they atheists. There are also quite a number of cases of noted intellectuals adopting or changing their religion in later life, e.g. Waugh's conversion to catholicism. While as an atheist I might consider unsupported belief in an unlikely deity to be delusional, it doesn't imply all people with such beliefs are somehow less intelligent.

bogwalrus

I think to define smart is very hard these days as individually we can all be smart in particular fields but be hopeless in other areas of knowledge. I have a friend that you would call a genius because he can multiply any numbers you give him and he will have the answer (talking like 8975 x 5672). When it comes to general knowledge he just doesn't know anything (really).

Your IQ must tie in with your genetics and the ability that particular brain has to store and process information. At a young age when we are in school and getting our smarts on its about how well we focus and apply ourselves to learning.

This is where all those external factors come in like bad teachers, bad parents, hormones, being sickly etc can effect how much we actually do learn in school.

I always think looking back at my school years that if I didn't have a particular number of terrible teachers I would be much smarter today. That's why in my first year in college I repeated two subjects out of pride because I failed them in my leaving and did very well when I just applied myself to the work.

So I think it is impossible to say an Atheists IQ is greater than a Theists but maybe they can be smarter as smarts come from how well you are educated with minimal; negative external factors. I would put shoving religion down your throat from a young age a negative external factor. It would be the same as my parents continually telling me for my whole life that Santa Clause was real. It is a complete distraction from reality and a waste of cognitive energy that eventually leads to school kids not being able to apply themselves fully in school.

smacl

gaynorvader wrote: »

Today we have the internet, and a lot more evidence and data supporting atheism.

While we can poke holes in statements of supposed fact in many religious texts, we can't prove that there isn't any God or Gods. All we can reasonably say is that there is no evidence whatsoever to support the notion that there are, which is as much evidence as we've ever had. Note that my atheism isn't based around the specific denial of Christian mythology any more than all other belief systems which to me don't appear either rational or even minutely probable. YMMV.

As per Bannasidhe's post, the principal difference today is massively reduced levels of persecution in many parts of the world for holding one set of beliefs over another.

gaynorvader

smacl wrote: »

While we can poke holes in statements of supposed fact in many religious texts, we can't prove that there isn't any God or Gods. All we can reasonably say is that there is no evidence whatsoever to support the notion that there are, which is as much evidence as we've ever had. Note that my atheism isn't based around the specific denial of Christian mythology any more than all other belief systems which to me don't appear either rational or even minutely probable. YMMV.

As per Bannasidhe's post, the principal difference today is massively reduced levels of persecution in many parts of the world for holding one set of beliefs over another.

I understand all of that, but even the idea that there might not be a god is one that's more spread around thanks to the internet. Historically, gods always filled in the gaps of human knowledge, as we close those gaps, gods are assigned different ones, so I would say the spread of knowledge has definitely influenced the rise in atheism. Persecution (or lack thereof) is definitely a large role too, don't get me wrong.

[-0-]

People who use logic are more logical than those who don't.

Wow.

bogwalrus

[-0-] wrote: »

People who use logic are more logical than those who don't.

Wow.

And Vulcan's that care only about logic show no emotion as emotions are irrelevant and cloud judgement. Emotions are illogical.;)

Kidchameleon

robindch wrote: »

That's a fairly grand, sweeping statement -- would you care to back it up with some evidence?

Thread title

robindch wrote: »

Or would you like to withdraw it?

No

Kidchameleon

seamus wrote: »

It's no coincidence that there's a link between poverty and religion, because those of lower income tend to have received less education.

Less education = less opportunities. Where does religion come into it?

An atheist not receiving an education has the same chance of not succeeding as a religious person not receiving an education. Plenty of religious millionaires out there just as there are plenty of atheist millionaires.

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Less education = less opportunities. Where does religion come into it?

An atheist not receiving an education has the same chance of not succeeding as a religious person not receiving an education. Plenty of religious millionaires out there just as there are plenty of atheist millionaires.

I know some people think accumulation of wealth = intelligence. I have never been one of those people.

Sarky

An atheist without an education is pretty rare, seeing as there's a pretty strong correlation between the two. I think you're getting a bit confused with various studies, KidChameleon.

gaynorvader

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Thread title



No

Based on a study, not based on the idea that religion makes people dumb, nor does it mean that atheists actually believe religious people to be less intelligent because they believe. I think you may have grasped the incorrect end of the stick. Did you read the link?

Kidchameleon

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I know some people think accumulation of wealth = intelligence. I have never been one of those people.

I would be one of those people aswell I was just trying to give some sort of an example. Perhaps it was a bad one!

Kidchameleon

Sarky wrote: »

An atheist without an education is pretty rare, seeing as there's a pretty strong correlation between the two. I think you're getting a bit confused with various studies, KidChameleon.

Link please

Kidchameleon

gaynorvader wrote: »

Based on a study, not based on the idea that religion makes people dumb, nor does it mean that atheists actually believe religious people to be less intelligent because they believe. I think you may have grasped the incorrect end of the stick. Did you read the link?

I did read the link and as I understand it, in a nutshell, atheist = more likely to have an education. I feel that there is a mindset amongst some atheists that equates religion to stupidity. I have debated with people on this issue and studies like the above have been cited as evidence to back that smug mindset up. As an atheist, I find it embarrassing.

gaynorvader

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I did read the link and as I understand it, in a nutshell, atheist = more likely to have an education. I feel that there is a mindset amongst some atheists that equates religion to stupidity. I have debated with people on this issue and studies like the above have been cited as evidence to back that smug mindset up. As an atheist, I find it embarrassing.

Ah, I understood it to mean well educated = more likely to be atheist. There are stupid people everywhere, I try not to listen to them too closely.

Sarky

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Link please

You're asking me for a link to the study referenced in the first post?

seamus

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Less education = less opportunities. Where does religion come into it?

That's kind of my point. I'm making the distinction that there's a direct correlation between poverty and religiosity. The common denominator being education.

It would be a mistake to assume that poverty causes religiosity in the same way that it would be a mistake to assume that a religious person is inherently stupid (or an atheist inherently smart).

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I have debated with people on this issue and studies like the above have been cited as evidence to back that smug mindset up. As an atheist, I find it embarrassing.

Are you sure that they're not just trolling the religious? That goes on too and I'm not sure you appreciate that.

Regardless, as gaynorvader pointed out above, there may well be some teenagers who believe they're smarter humans than the average non-atheist because of what they believe, and I put them into the same dumbucket as those fine christians who believe they're better humans than non-christians because of what they believe.

Kidchameleon

Sarky wrote: »

You're asking me for a link to the study referenced in the first post?

You said: "An atheist without an education is pretty rare"

I'm looking for something to back that claim up.

smacl

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You said: "An atheist without an education is pretty rare".

Chinese labouring classes, post cultural revolution, and similarly Russians spring to mind. My understanding was that these are largely atheistic societies, and would have their fair share of people with minimal education.

Bannasidhe

smacl wrote: »

Chinese labouring classes, post cultural revolution, and similarly Russians spring to mind. My understanding was that these are largely atheistic societies, and would have their fair share of people with minimal education.

Technically true - but in their case the Cult of Mao replaced religion.

smacl

seamus wrote: »

It would be a mistake to assume that poverty causes religiosity in the same way that it would be a mistake to assume that a religious person is inherently stupid (or an atheist inherently smart).

Though you could say religious activity such as missions lead to an increase in the number of converts, and that impoverished societies provide the best environment for such activity. Most modern religions aren't spontaneous, they're organised, and they're actively expansionist.