Forum move.

Rev Hellfire

It's no secret that the placement of the Chess forum under strategy is not ideal.
Its current location is not where either casual or dedicated players would look for such a forum.

With that in mind it has been proposed to move the forum (along with others) to a new grouping called "Tabletop Gaming" the proposed layout of which is shown below:

Tabletop Gaming {Main Forum}

-> Roleplaying {PnP}
-> Miniature Gaming
-> Chess
-> Poker {inc subforums}
-> Tradable Card Gaming

For a casual player such a grouping makes sense, though we are aware that an equally valid argument exists for it's placement under "Sports" where the more dedicated player might expect it to be located.

So before the move proceeds here is your opportunity to voice your opinion and provide arguments for or against it.

"Move Chess from Games to Sports" Request Thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056964384

Myrddin

Just to chime in, we're aware of the push for Chess to be moved to the Sports Category too. But we're looking for feedback on where you think Chess would be best suited in terms of the existing community, & where newer users would be more inclined to look for Chess discussion.

As Reverend Hellfire mentioned above, the draft Tabletop Gaming forum would essentially be a rebranded version of Toys & Boardgames. The 'toys' aspect of that forum is very small, so instead of catering for that, we would like to cater for all the genres with the Games Category, that are not ideally catered for. If rebranded to Tabletop Gaming, we could then take Chess & other forums that are a little lost among the video games forums, & give them a proper home. It'd be a more natural place to house Chess than Strategy, where it currently resides.

However, if Sports is the ideal destination for Chess, then let your feelings be known about it

Sparks

I've commented on this before, but just to summarise for the record:

Sparks wrote: »

My two cents ... say the case to move it to Sports and have a link to it in Tabletop games is a pretty strong one.

... people are incredibly lazy about their definition of what "sport" is because nobody ever thinks about it much. Most won't say chess; but most will say formula 1 is a sport, or horseracing; and they will also tell us that things like olympic target shooting "aren't real sports" because they don't see what's involved unless they're in the sport. So most people don't have a precise definition of the word at all and in fact have a fairly conflicted idea in mind as to what that definition ought to be.

And the dictionaries aren't much help - depending on which one you go to, they'll either say it often involves physical activity or else that it does involve physical exertion but give no idea of how much exertion counts (play chess all day, competitively - you will be physically exhausted by day's end, it's just that you don't see it from the outside because it doesn't happen in a short space of time).

Take a peek at what Wikipedia has to say on it:

The precise definition of what separates a sport from other leisure activities varies between sources, with no universally agreed definition. The closest to an international agreement on a definition is provided by SportAccord, which is the association for all the largest international sports federations (including association football, athletics, cycling, tennis, equestrian sports and more), and is therefore the de facto representative of international sport.

SportAccord uses the following criteria, determining that a sport should:

• have an element of competition
• be in no way harmful to any living creature
• not rely on equipment provided by a single supplier (excluding proprietary games such as arena football)
• not rely on any "luck" element specifically designed into the sport

They also recognise that sport can be primarily physical (such as rugby or athletics), primarily mind (such as chess or go), predominantly motorised (such as Formula 1 or powerboating), primarily co-ordination (such as billiard sports), or primarily animal supported (such as equestrian sport).

The points regarding motorsports, and equestrian sports are pretty apropos given that both are in Sports at the moment.
(And greyhound racing as well - and feck it, that doesn't even have people in it!)

...

[the word]..."Sport" has a specific meaning.

My points were that (a) it doesn't ("specific" meaning one definition that everyone agrees on); (b) the closest we have to that is SportAccord's definition, which says chess is a sport; and (c) we really can't use the definition argument anyway since we have things in the sport category that patently can't meet any definition of sport (how would greyhound racing count as a sport when no human is involved in the physical activity?).

Whichever of the three you look at, we don't have a very strong argument to not move chess into sports and we do have a good argument to move it. All that really seems to grate with the idea is that it's counter-intuitive. But that's a flaw in English, not elsewhere. If we had better definitions for "sport" or a seperate word for what we're now calling "mind sports" -- and attendant support for those activities on a social level instead of the mildly dismissive overtones that get associated with the word "games" when talking about things done on a competitive level -- then we probably wouldn't have the question at all in the first place.

Ciaran

Is this to be a subheading in the current Games heading? I'd never have considered chess a tabletop game and poker and role playing games don't seem to have much in common with it. A boardgames subheading would fit best if there are other board games that could be added.

brilliantboy

I don't think that's any better a solution than where it is now.

In my view it belongs in sports, and that's where it would get the most exposure, but I can understand why some people are in opposition to that.
To me a logical grouping would be Chess, Draughts, Go, Poker, Bridge and other similar games in one section.
If that's not plausible then I think Chess would fit better with strategy boardgames like Carcasonne, Risk etc. where gameplay is the main focus as opposed to tabletop games like Warhammer and MtG which have a different dimension entirely (collectable, paint-your-own etc.), and I think more casual users would expect to find Chess in a boardgames forum than a tabletop games forum.

Zugszwang

I vote for SPORTS!

fenris

If we are moving then I think that we should go to sports, anything else is just faffing about.

As for finding the chess forum, the main way that people find lesser known forums is to spot them on the home screen when a recent thread is posted or the search function.

Myrddin

Ciaran wrote: »

I'd never have considered chess a tabletop game and poker and role playing games don't seem to have much in common with it.

Chess ia a boardgame, which is a category of tabletop gaming. Whatever about Poker & p&p RPG's, at the moment Chess is living Starcraft & Rome Total War type video games.

brilliantboy wrote: »

In my view it belongs in sports, and that's where it would get the most and I think more casual users would expect to find Chess in a boardgames forum than a tabletop games forum.

Maybe so, hence this thread

Zugszwang wrote: »

I vote for SPORTS!

fenris wrote: »

If we are moving then I think that we should go to sports, anything else is just faffing about.

Appreciate all the opinions

checknraise

To promote chess I would say put it wherever the forum will get the most views but realistically I agree with Brilliantboy - chess is not a sport and it should be grouped with Poker, Bridge, Go etc wherever that may be but I don't like the category of Table Top Gaming as it is too ambiguous.

Why not Mind Sports and that way everybody is happy!

EnPassant

checknraise wrote: »

To promote chess I would say put it wherever the forum will get the most views but realistically I agree with Brilliantboy - chess is not a sport and it should be grouped with Poker, Bridge, Go etc wherever that may be but I don't like the category of Table Top Gaming as it is too ambiguous.

Why not Mind Sports and that way everybody is happy!

Sounds good.

Table Top doesn't seem right - I wonder is most chess actually played online these days?

Myrddin

checknraise wrote: »

chess is not a sport and it should be grouped with Poker, Bridge, Go etc wherever that may be

Bridge, Go etc don't have forums, & wouldn't sustain their own forums either. Therefore we need to have a parent forum for to cater to the low level discussions about any game in the genre. That's why we're suggestion renaming Toys & Boardgames, to something else. That can then take care of all the general talk about smaller games, & Chess can have its own dedicated subforum of that then.

but I don't like the category of Table Top Gaming as it is too ambiguous.

Well the naming & structure isn't set in stone. There's variations we could play around with:

Tabletop & Board Gaming
Boardgaming & Tabletops
Board Gaming
Toys & Tabletop Gaming

The structure can then be decided upon if we get the initial naming right.

Why not Mind Sports and that way everybody is happy!

Personally I find that more ambiguous than anything else

Raphael

So somethign that I don;t think has come across here is that Tabletop Games was envisaged as a heading that would be inclusive of boardgames - in fact as the top level forum it would be largely for boardgames, with nicher interests like RPGs, Wargaming and chess as subfora. There's one or two posts in here that seem to be in favour of it in in principle, but not the 'Tabletop Games' name. Would something like 'Traditional Games/Gaming' fit the bill? Would make it very much stand out from the videogamey surroundings, and is a term that is used elsewhere to refer to the kind of games you have to move things around to play.

Personally, I think somewhere Gamesy would be better as, while for people playing at a professional level, it is a sport, being a subforum of a boardgames forum would be a more obvious place to find passing people - in addition to boardgamers. Forum location isn't really important to the regulars - presumably you guys all subscribe to the forum and navigate to it from my forums? It's more about considering where people will look for it to draw in more interest.

Myrddin

Raphael wrote: »

So somethign that I don;t think has come across here is that Tabletop Games was envisaged as a heading that would be inclusive of boardgames - in fact as the top level forum it would be largely for boardgames, with nicher interests like RPGs, Wargaming and chess as subfora. There's one or two posts in here that seem to be in favour of it in in principle, but not the 'Tabletop Games' name. Would something like 'Traditional Games/Gaming' fit the bill?

I agree, the naming can be changed to better encompass included forums. Certainly Traditional Games would be considered:

Traditional Games {Main Forum}

-> Roleplaying {PnP}
-> Miniature Gaming
-> Chess
-> Poker {inc subforums}
-> Tradable Card Gaming

The description then under the forum could be "Traditional, Tabletop, & Card Gaming" or something, whatever's appropriate. So the main Traditional Games forum would cover all the usual Board games chat that currently goes on in Toys & Boardgames, then we have the dedicated subforums for the more established games & niches.

Myrddin

This thread will be a week old tomorrow, so we'd appreciate any & all feedback or thoughts on the forum move

Amirani

EnterNow wrote: »

I agree, the naming can be changed to better encompass included forums. Certainly Traditional Games would be considered:



The description then under the forum could be "Traditional, Tabletop, & Card Gaming" or something, whatever's appropriate. So the main Traditional Games forum would cover all the usual Board games chat that currently goes on in Toys & Boardgames, then we have the dedicated subforums for the more established games & niches.

I'd highlighted my preference in the Forum Requests thread to have Chess as a top level category under games (like poker is at present). If that's not possible, something like the above would work okay I think.

Myrddin

NiallSparky wrote: »

I'd highlighted my preference in the Forum Requests thread to have Chess as a top level category under games (like poker is at present). If that's not possible, something like the above would work okay I think.

The thing is, giving it a top level position in Games would still see the Chess forum surrounded by Video Games. These days, the Games Category, is by & large a Video Games category, with very few traditional games mixed in. The traditional games that are in the category, & spread around in a few different genres, none being really very well placed. Poker, Chess, Tradable Card Games, Miniature Games etc are all categories of gaming that are out of place in the overall Games Category.

The idea is, to maybe coral these out of place games, into a new heading, that houses them far better than they currently are.

Chess, & Poker are obviously the ones that need some additional thought, so we need to establish if Sports is overall the best place for Chess, or not...

Manach

Would not favour Sport category, as there is a preponderance of mental activity for chess. Given the historical roots of Chess as a strategy game, a separate header under that section as is would be fine - my 2c.

mikhail

This subforum was dead until the Leinster Chess Union closed their blog. As such, most of the readers here are either high level chess players (who almost uniformly consider chess a sport, like the Olympic council and most countries) or boards mods (who could have an argument about the subject of the article of the day on wikipedia, every day). I vote sports.

Myrddin

mikhail wrote: »

This subforum was dead until the Leinster Chess Union closed their blog.

That's the problem though, it wasn't placed very well within the Category, & as such, could have been losing a lot of folks with just a passing interest in the game/sport.

RQ_ennis_chess

When I first went looking for the chess forum on boards I couldnt find it. Most natural place would probably be boardgames or else sports. Not sure why it was put in the strategy category in the first place since chess is primarily a tactical rather than strategical game.

Myrddin

We've agreed to move Chess out of Strategy, & into a top tier position within the Games Category, same as Poker etc. It'll be out in its own & have maximum exposure there. We'll see how it goes anyway

Amirani

EnterNow wrote: »

We've agreed to move Chess out of Strategy, & into a top tier position within the Games Category, same as Poker etc. It'll be out in its own & have maximum exposure there. We'll see how it goes anyway

A positive development. Hopefully the traffic picks up somewhat.