PARKING in middle of T junction - Garda said "no traffic flow affected"

rolion

Hi,

Local big issue here, where I live...
There is a "crazy" T junction, which has a blocking wall on the lower T and a straight line of road that gives you some speed on higher T sides. No indicator to Yield or Stop, no yellow lines, no signs.



There are 2 or 3 frequent cars parked any time any day or overnight parking in the middle of the junction on the longer stretch of T. I understood some of them are Garda Officers as well ,but I can be wrong here...
All neighbours complain abut but nothing done so far.

Today, i went inches from three different vehicles in different instances. When asked what's going on, we exchanged hard to write words and lots of fingers, despite been ... neighbours !
All due to this car(s)parked there, that he don't even live nearby, around 10 house down the road.
Cars coming from either way of the T, will have to avoid that car. So, coming from top left, you have to overtake the parked car and enter on the path of the car coming from lower T side and ...crash !
Coming from the lower T ,the wall FORCE you to enter the junction longer than legal permitted and if a car comes from your left (left higher T arm) you ...crash !

NOW...few issues here...who's fault is it ?
Car coming from left, says that he has to overtake the parked car and you entered his lane.
Car coming from lower T doesn't have to stop or yield as no cars coming on his flow, from right side, but has to crash with the car that overtakes in a junction due to the car parked in the middle !


NOW...the beauty of all this...I went to local Garda station to report the issue.
I had even photos of my car entering the junction and the car parked there.
Explained that either way I want to deal with, is not going to be parked car's fault but only my or other car driver's fault.
Asked them to do something as it drive me insane and scary ...
Been told that is no markings, is no indicator therefore the car is not affecting the junction traffic flow ! Also, that car has valid insurance and road tax, to log a complaint to Fingal County Council to remove the offending car and/or to draw yellow lines !

I've asked the Garda Officer to confirm that in event that I'm having a crash who's at he fault...
At that stage she went away very fast ,left me speaking alone and went to serve another waiting person ! Very bizarre...

So, here I am asking the best "authority" around...what can I do next !
I was thinking to park my van straight in to the parked car and leave it there, waiting for Garda to confirm that "traffic flow" not affected...

TheChizler

Well if you hit a parked car it's kinda your own fault.

rolion

TheChizler wrote: »

Well if you hit a parked car it's kinda your own fault.

Forgot to mention that...bio waves !

Speaking with a neighbour...we kind of thinking that guys parking cars there, old reg plates cars, they are hoping somebody will hit them ,therefore those cars may get written off and they're cashing ..the cash !??

Mikros

You need to get onto the local authority/council traffic department and ask them to paint double yellow lines or make whatever adjustments are required to make the junction safe. If you have no success try contacting you local councillors or TD.

Once the lines/signs are in place then the guards can do something about it!

corktina

i think at any given time there would be thousands of cars parked more illegally than that and the Gards sensibly use their resources to target the worst offences. It doesn't look particulalrly dangerous to me, other drivers just need to take care.

djimi

It looks like a housing estate; given the speeds that you should be driving I dont see why there is any significant risk of anyone crashing into anyone else? The parked cars are an inconvenience for sure, but proper observation and obeying of the rules of the road should ensure that there is no danger in the situation.

gctest50

It may obstruct a fire engine ?

rolion

I've been advised by the Garda officer to drive slow and carefully.
OK, fine for me...BUT...what if another driver is not driving slow and carefully, what if is a new driver in the area ! What if he's not going to stop to look left AND right at that junction and crash on to me, the same me as a driver that overtook the parked car and been on the other traffic lane ,crashing head-to-head with a legal driver !?According to some here...the parked car is ..parked legally !
Nice one...

So, if I park ,repeat park overnight or full day my jeep in the middle of a T traffic junction with around 200 cars passing by in a normal day, in a residential estate...is that going to be ok for you !??

There were already few crashes, as been told by other people, unfortunately, i don't know the outcome of the crash !

djimi

rolion wrote: »

OK, fine for me...BUT...what if another driver is not driving slow and carefully, what if is a new driver in the area ! What if he's not going to stop to look left AND right at that junction and crash on to me, the same me as a driver that overtook the parked car and been on the other traffic lane ,crashing head-to-head with a legal driver !?According to some here...the parked car is ..parked legally !
Nice one...

Unfortunately the same could be said for any situation, be it caused by an illegally parked car or not.

Im not condoning the parking, but I dont see much from that picture of the map to suggest that there is any great danger. Visibility looks good from all sides, and while it might be an inconvenience, I see nothing to suggest that its any more dangerous than a car that is partially blocking one side of the road on any normal estate road (ie not at a junction).

corktina

I doubt the gards will or indeed should do anything until a crime/incident occurs. In my view it is a waste of scarce resources for the gards to send a patrol up there a few times a day just in case someone parks borderline dangerous/illegal whatever , when there are people parked just as poorly all over.

Spook_ie

rolion wrote: »

I've been advised by the Garda officer to drive slow and carefully.
OK, fine for me...BUT...what if another driver is not driving slow and carefully, what if is a new driver in the area ! What if he's not going to stop to look left AND right at that junction and crash on to me, the same me as a driver that overtook the parked car and been on the other traffic lane ,crashing head-to-head with a legal driver !?According to some here...the parked car is ..parked legally !
Nice one...

So, if I park ,repeat park overnight or full day my jeep in the middle of a T traffic junction with around 200 cars passing by in a normal day, in a residential estate...is that going to be ok for you !??

There were already few crashes, as been told by other people, unfortunately, i don't know the outcome of the crash !

There is a statistic that the majority of cars involved in collisions when turning left out of a junction are involved in collisions because they do not look left as well as right before exiting. This is especially true on country roads where people may well be overtaking agricultural vehicles

Moral:~ Like crossing the road look both ways

dingding

looks like it is the middle of a housing estate and not a through road.

Would cost the council a fortune if they had to yellow box and double yellow every junction in a housing estate. There must be tens of thousands of such junctions across the country.

If you live in the housing estate such obstructions slowing traffic flow might be preferable to opening up a high speed short cut through the estate.

Think of the children

Damien360

Find out which fire station serves your area. Ask the chief fire officer very nicely to have a look for fire tender access to that area. You could email him/her with coordinates/google maps link to get the ball rolling. Explain situation. Ask if he could email you his response to this afterwards.

Then go to council with this and ask for double yellow lines.

This is exactly the situation my dad had in his housing estate with students using it for free parking. Double yellows on one side. It may help.

Del2005

rolion wrote: »

NOW...the beauty of all this...I went to local Garda station to report the issue.
I had even photos of my car entering the junction and the car parked there.
Explained that either way I want to deal with, is not going to be parked car's fault but only my or other car driver's fault.
Asked them to do something as it drive me insane and scary ...
Been told that is no markings, is no indicator therefore the car is not affecting the junction traffic flow ! Also, that car has valid insurance and road tax, to log a complaint to Fingal County Council to remove the offending car and/or to draw yellow lines !

I've asked the Garda Officer to confirm that in event that I'm having a crash who's at he fault...
At that stage she went away very fast ,left me speaking alone and went to serve another waiting person ! Very bizarre...

So, here I am asking the best "authority" around...what can I do next !
I was thinking to park my van straight in to the parked car and leave it there, waiting for Garda to confirm that "traffic flow" not affected...

What sort of Gardaí are we training that don't even know it's illegal to park within 5m of a junction unless the bays are marked. It's on page 136 of the ROTR as I can never find anything in the Statute Book

Victor

I take it that this is the junction. https://maps.google.ie/maps?q=an+garr%C3%A1n,+littlepace&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.402925,-6.421412&spn=0.002616,0.007639&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&hnear=The+Grove,+Clonee,+County+Dublin&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=53.402951,-6.421131&panoid=ZhLKznqRVwJONY3bdhLpRw&cbp=12,256.44,,0,5.51

If you mean that cars park along the wall on the left, forcing cars into onto the wrong side of the road approaching the junction, then talking to the council and getting some white or yellow lines may help.

The junction is problematic as the 'main' road goes from north to south, whereas the main traffic flow goes from east to south - the north arm is a cul de sac.

corktina

the east to south road is actually the main line...see the road names...

visual

Most estates are similar nothing unusual.
Maybe I've picked it up wrong but reading first post it comes across as small minded
Outsiders shouldn't park in my estate.
Couldn't catch them out on tax and NCT so pushing for dangerous parking.
When will idiots realise they don't own the road on the street they live on. It's called a public road for a reason.

listermint

Struggling to see the problem here. If you or anyone is driving at speed through a housing estate then you deserve a solid kick up the backside.

This seems like a complete non issue.

keithclancy

listermint wrote: »

Struggling to see the problem here. If you or anyone is driving at speed through a housing estate then you deserve a solid kick up the backside.

This seems like a complete non issue.

+1

Housing estates in every country have roads that are obstructed by parked cars, you just need to take extra care and drive more slowly since there are kids playing, people out walking etc.

dantastic

Most estates are not built to handle parking properly. I cannot see why it should be OK to park illegally because of it.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a36
The rules are pretty straight forward and makes perfect sense.

visual

Quick glance and I don't see the illegal parking covering the strait section they are parked on. The 15 meters approch and 5 meters after would applly on the corners, its a bit subjective to imply it also covers the other side of the road that is strait.

I'm reading the link on phone so might have missed the relevant section

dantastic

From my linky above

( k ) in a manner in which it will interfere with the normal flow of traffic or which obstructs or endangers other traffic;

That pretty much covers it. It really is a case of "I know it when I see it" but I think OP is in the right here and has backing of the statue book.

keithclancy

dantastic wrote: »

Most estates are not built to handle parking properly. I cannot see why it should be OK to park illegally because of it.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a36
The rules are pretty straight forward and makes perfect sense.

In fairness, a lot of housing estates have far too many cars / household.

Mainly due to bad planning and lack of decent public transport.

dantastic

keithclancy wrote: »

In fairness, a lot of housing estates have far too many cars / household.

Mainly due to bad planning and lack of decent public transport.

2 wrongs making a right?

Not disagreeing with the above statement but I don't consider it acceptable for people to park illegally because of it.

I've had enough of clowns abandoning their cars wherever they feel like, people know they are in the wrong but as there is zero enforcement then why care!?

visual

There is cars parked on both sides of the road in my estate it does restrict cars driving normally as two cars driving in opposite dirrections one will have to give way. But there is sufficient space for bin lorry and emergency services to go past. So while its not ideal there is no obstruction

This is no different to the OP example
The garda have also said its not causing a obstruction. No laws are being broken.

cpoh1

Dont get the fuss to be honest.

You're in a housing estate where car speeds are low and there is good visibility. Take your time, if there's another car at the junction give way if you are about to overtake the parked cars.

If this is the type of thing that gets you going then fixing this will only mean your gripe will move onto something else. No offense intended.

keithclancy

dantastic wrote: »

2 wrongs making a right?

Not disagreeing with the above statement but I don't consider it acceptable for people to park illegally because of it.

I've had enough of clowns abandoning their cars wherever they feel like, people know they are in the wrong but as there is zero enforcement then why care!?

I hear you, but, put simply its the lesser of two evils.

If they wanted to fix the problem tomorrow they could just bring in a parking permit for the estate and restrict it to two cars per household.

However this would be to the detriment of the people living there already.

I think leaving it as is and people taking their time driving around a housing estate is a whole lot better than regulated parking with permits, extra costs/marked spaces and so on.

Nothing worse than coming home from work and having to drive around for ages trying to find a space for your car.

Never mind when people come to visit and you have to arrange a visitors permit or something.

DubTony

visual wrote: »

Quick glance and I don't see the illegal parking covering the strait section they are parked on. The 15 meters approch and 5 meters after would applly on the corners, its a bit subjective to imply it also covers the other side of the road that is strait.

I'm reading the link on phone so might have missed the relevant section

A junction is a junction. It doesn't matter what side of the road you're on. The 15 and 5 applies to traffic lights and pedestrian crossings. In this case it's a very simple rule. Don't park within 5 metres of a junction. The attitude of the Gardaí is surprising.
The best course of action here is to have the council paint double yellows all round. When it was done in my estate it just took a few calls and letters from residents to local councillors.

I live near this junction. Driving into the estate one day before the double yellows had been painted, I followed a guy to the roundabout (it's one of those big blobs of paint you can drive over). He stopped on the left with me right behind him, and got out of the car. I said "You can't park there". He said "F*ck off, there's no lines". He wasn't the only one. On those days when someone was having a party, it wasn't unusual to see 2 or 3 cars parked there, and they almost always stuck 2 wheels on the footpath as well.

Iwannahurl

The attitude of the Gardai is not in the least bit surprising to me. I have found it to be extremely difficult to get them to deal with blatant illegal/obnoxious parking in situations where it is perfectly obvious what is going wrong and who is at fault. For example, I once reported a long line of cars obstructing footpaths and cycle lanes (during a GAA match) and I was told by a Garda that "there are no double yellow lines up there". On another occasion I asked a passing Garda to deal with a car simultaneously parked on double yellow lines and obstructing a footpath. Her response was "but they have their hazard warning lights on!" They also routinely ignore blatantly illegal parking on footpaths, which is endemic in just about every housing esate.

In other words OP, in this situation AGS will be of absolutely no use to you. There is simply no way they are going to respond on each and every occasion that cars are parked awkwardly in this spot. My suggestion is that you organise a meeting with like-minded residents and lobby the local authority to put in double yellow lines etc as required. Is there a local residents association? That's the route to go if there are local problems of this sort that need fixing. The local Joint Policing Committee, if there is one, is another possibility. Getting some traffic calming and a 30 km/h speed limit in while you're at it!

cpoh1

Iwannahurl wrote: »

They also routinely ignore blatantly illegal parking on footpaths, which is endemic in just about every housing esate.

Bit OTT no?

The gardai are being sensible really, policing housing estates like they are main streets in city centres is a silly idea.

At the end of the day the people who get pissed by this kind of thing, unless its a major problem causing serious disruption, are the ones with the problem most of the time. Life is too short sometimes.

dantastic

cpoh1 wrote: »

Bit OTT no?

The gardai are being sensible really, policing housing estates like they are main streets in city centres is a silly idea.

At the end of the day the people who get pissed by this kind of thing, unless its a major problem causing serious disruption, are the ones with the problem most of the time. Life is too short sometimes.

I gather you are one of those clowns who happily abandon their car wherever they feel like. Would you care to draw up a list of other laws and regulations it's ok not to follow?

Your argument that it's other peoples' problem is just childish. What is wrong with the suggestion to actually solve the problem rather than pretending it's not there?

cpoh1

cpoh1 wrote: »

Bit OTT no?

The gardai are being sensible really, policing housing estates like they are main streets in city centres is a silly idea.

At the end of the day the people who get pissed by this kind of thing, unless its a major problem causing serious disruption, are the ones with the problem most of the time. Life is too short sometimes.

dantastic wrote: »

I gather you are one of those clowns who happily abandon their car wherever they feel like. Would you care to draw up a list of other laws and regulations it's ok not to follow?

Your argument that it's other peoples' problem is just childish. What is wrong with the suggestion to actually solve the problem rather than pretending it's not there?

Exhibit number 1 for the jury above...

I reckon you are a right howl to live next door to.

dantastic

cpoh1 wrote: »

Exhibit number 1 for the jury above...

I reckon you are a right howl to live next door to.

Likewise!

Victor

Victor wrote: »

The junction is problematic as the 'main' road goes from north to south, whereas the main traffic flow goes from east to south - the north arm is a cul de sac.

corktina wrote: »

the east to south road is actually the main line...see the road names...

I hear what you are saying, but I said what I said carefully. Traffic coming from the 'leg' of a T-junction (east in this case) should always yield to other traffic unless the signage says otherwise.

Iwannahurl

cpoh1 wrote: »

Bit OTT no?

The gardai are being sensible really, policing housing estates like they are main streets in city centres is a silly idea.

At the end of the day the people who get pissed by this kind of thing, unless its a major problem causing serious disruption, are the ones with the problem most of the time. Life is too short sometimes.

No, AGS are taking a populist car-centric approach to this problem, imo.

For some people motorists life is too short to bother parking legally on the road and walking an extra couple of metres to their front door.

I suspect this is the source of the OP's difficulty. If the awkwardly parked motorists were to have a little more consideration for other road users that might result in their having to walk a little bit further than usual. Anyway the subject of footpath parking rears its ugly head on Boards from time to time, usually inspiring an avalanche of excuses for this illegal and obnoxious habit, so I won't pursue it in this thread.

mathepac

corktina wrote: »

... thousands of cars parked more illegally ...

I thought it was binary, either legal or illegal.

Mikros wrote: »

You need to get onto the local authority/council traffic department and ask them to paint double yellow lines or make whatever adjustments are required to make the junction safe. If you have no success try contacting you local councillors or TD.

Once the lines/signs are in place then the guards can do something about it!

All untrue of course. You can guilty of illegal or dangerous parking or of obstruction without any signs or painted lines.

djimi wrote: »

It looks like a housing estate; given the speeds that you should be driving I dont see why there is any significant risk of anyone crashing into anyone else? ...

Spot on. A universal 25/30 kph speed-limit in built-up areas would sort it all out.

Iwannahurl

mathepac wrote: »

I thought it was binary, either legal or illegal.

All untrue of course. You can guilty of illegal or dangerous parking or of obstruction without any signs or painted lines.

Spot on. A universal 25/30 kph speed-limit in built-up areas would sort it all out.

A 30 km/h speed limit would certainly make the roads in residential and city centre areas a lot safer and more conducive for public transport, walking and cycling.

However, strict parking controls are needed for other reasons, such as access for disabled people and service vehicles.

The value of road markings is that they give clear signals as to what is allowed in terms of parking etc. People in general tend to do what they see others doing. If one motorist parks illegally or obnoxiously, it is more likely that others will follow suit. Painting lines might go some way towards prompting more compliant or considerate behaviour.

Victor

mathepac wrote: »

I thought it was binary, either legal or illegal.

Not quite. There is illegal, there is obnoxious and there is dangerous. They don't always overlap, but when you have all three there is an imperative to act.

Iwannahurl

That may be true in general, but in practice there are values influencing decisions to respond to situations that may be illegal, obnoxious and/or dangerous.

In my experience, both AGS and local authorities are far more likely to act when the situation primarily affects motorists. An obstructed footpath, cycle lane or bus stop will often get a "so what" response whereas an obstructed carriageway or road will prompt a faster reaction.

The response the OP got, as per the thread title, was "no traffic flow affected". Basically the attitude is, if cars are moving what's the problem?

rolion

Hi,

Sorry to drag an old topic for an up to date issue !
Managed to capture few days ago a real time situation where a non-local car, registered in Cork was on the collision course with my car:

Tonight, another near crash situation, i have the recording in the car dash cam, i will upload it later.
Came home, near crash with another car.
Called local Garda in D15 and told them that in the next few days I will forward an official registered letter to them and signed by all people living on that road ,explaining the situation and the fact that all neighbours and people living on that street have rang and complained to the Station and still no update or change seen ...

What next can we do here... !??

Thanks.

Mycroft H

That's really bad alright. Like some double yellow lines may sort it out. Or a few parking tickets.

And I hate saying this, we all make mistakes, but it's a bit fast into a junction that you know has crap visibility, no?

antodeco

Did you come out of a side road into a junction and not wait until your path was clear? To me , it looks like you are 100% in the wrong? You came out from a side road and proceeded to enter the road, as a car was travelling along. They were already starting their overtake when you continued out onto the road without stopping, thus turning into their path.

ba_barabus

You might want to edit the part where you get out of the car. It looks like you are giving the other driver a right bollixing.

ba_barabus

antodeco wrote: »

Did you come out of a side road into a junction and not wait until your path was clear? To me , it looks like you are 100% in the wrong? You came out from a side road and proceeded to enter the road, as a car was travelling along. They were already starting their overtake when you continued out onto the road without stopping, thus turning into their path.

That's what I see too. Although maybe OP needs to explain better what we are looking at.

rolion

Mycroft H wrote: »

That's really bad alright. Like some double yellow lines may sort it out. Or a few parking tickets.

And I hate saying this, we all make mistakes, but it's a bit fast into a junction that you know has crap visibility, no?

I know, speed possible been fast but is from the camera or video processing but there wasn't more than 20Kmh !

antodeco wrote: »

Did you come out of a side road into a junction and not wait until your path was clear? To me , it looks like you are 100% in the wrong? You came out from a side road and proceeded to enter the road, as a car was travelling along. They were already starting their overtake when you continued out onto the road without stopping, thus turning into their path.

Do you OVERTAKE in a T junction !??
I had none of the signs, I assumed is an yield to my right, coming from the T branch,therefore if my right side lane is free ... I enter the junction !

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

rolion

ba_barabus wrote: »

You might want to edit the part where you get out of the car. It looks like you are giving the other driver a right bollixing.

ba_barabus wrote: »

That's what I see too. Although maybe OP needs to explain better what we are looking at.

Noo...sorry !
All ok, he was from Cork and he said is my fault.
I asked what is he doing on my half side of the road ,we chat about the road, explained about the dash cam and he said ok, is 50/50 !
Both of us shaken hands at the end !

What's the point to fight with him when the issue is ... in the middle !

PS
I will upload the video from tonight in few minutes.

antodeco

rolion wrote: »

Do you OVERTAKE in a T junction !??
I had none of the signs, I assumed is an yield to my right, coming from the T branch,therefore if my right side lane is free ... I enter the junction !

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Firstly, the car HAS to overtake the parked car. Their only option, according to your shock, is to either drive straight into the back of the car, or wait until the owner moves that car.

Secondly, it's a T junction. Whilst yes you need to look right, a T junction is a stop junction, not a yield junction. You entered the junction before it was clear. As I said earlier, you entered the junction as the other car had already commenced its overtake. Equally, when you turned left, your side of the road was blocked.

Mycroft H

He has the right of way never the less. Can't go turning into traffic.

djimi

Im sorry but from looking at that video you are in the wrong. You turned a corner in a housing estate without appearing to make any effort to slow down or to make sure that the road was clear to turn into. You dont just turn blind corners without ensuring that that the road is clear; you saw the car parked in front of you and you should have anticipated that someone might have to overtake it.

Uriel.

rolion wrote: »

Noo...sorry !
All ok, he was from Cork and he said is my fault.
I asked what is he doing on my half side of the road ,we chat about the road, explained about the dash cam and he said ok, is 50/50 !
Both of us shaken hands at the end !

What's the point to fight with him when the issue is ... in the middle !

PS
I will upload the video from tonight in few minutes.

You're wasting your time speaking to Gardai. As was mentioned to you when you first created this thread, this is a matter to lobby your local authority with. That can be the admin people or the politicos. I'd suggest you have a small window of opportunity to get a solution if you want to...local elections coming up in a couple of months,plenty of guys and gals looking for easy votes/PR

Uriel.

PS as others have said you are at fault in the video. Given you know the "dangers" of the road, you really should know much much better,so you've no excuse