Intercity trains on Commuter Services

devnull

Maynooth line tonight was operated by a large number of intercity set ex Connolly towards Maynooth. I've never seen a train so packed and squashed for room. Dwell time at Connolly was about 15 minutes. I'd say there was about 40 people in each vestibule, arms and legs digging into each other.

Now I realise there is a Dublin Bus strike on, but why could they not run commuter trains on these lines rather than three car intercity trains which have far less seats in them due to the number of tables and toilets, and barely any standing room?

It annoys me when I see a long commuter set go out to some place such as Drogheda serving stations that the DART services, where people have other options and barely anyone got on, but they leave the people of Maynooth to cram into a three car ICR set which must carry about half the number of people who can be carried on a 4 car commuter.

TheBandicoot

It's quite simple, really.

The government refuses to subvent IE sufficiently to operate its entire fleet
->IE needs to standardise tools and maintenance and concentrate on a common fleet in order to get economies of scale
->IE withdraws the non-standard 2700 class
->IE cascades Dublin-based 2800 class units(which are mechanically similar to the 2600 class) to replace the 2700s on regional services
->IE does not have enough 29000s to cover services in the Dublin area the 2800s used to operate
->IE uses 22000s to fill the gap
->Passengers get crammed into vestibules in the unsuitable stock while the 2800 they used to take is transporting air somewhere between Athenry and Ennis.

It is ultimately the government(current and previous)'s fault for not subventing public transport to anywhere near the level necessary to operate the services the public needs. IE are also to blame for poor diagramming, but ultimately there is no way around it, all 29000s are in use at peak time so either other services or dropped or they get operated by unsuitable 22000s.

Also, it's not just the Maynooth line that gets shafted here, Drogheda services are operated by 22000s as well. A 6 car 22000 operates the 16.44 Pearse->Drogheda and every day I see it departing Connolly it is in a similiar state to the service you describe in your OP.

flyingsnail

In my experience when IC stock ends up on a busy commuter run people enter the doors at either end and remain in the vestibule are and refuse to move down the carriage and allow more people to board.

devnull

flyingsnail wrote: »

In my experience when IC stock ends up on a busy commuter run people enter the doors at either end and remain in the vestibule are and refuse to move down the carriage and allow more people to board.

Well tonight, I can tell you, that it wasn't the case, since the people in the carriage areas were just as squashed as people in the vestibule, since I tried to move down there but I literally couldn't. There were peole sitting on tables too, and in the toilets.

At least the Drogheda train is a six car, and the fact is people on most of those stops have choice of Bus Eireann and the Dart for a number of the stops served, you'd think someone would have copped on today that maybe, just maybe the Maynooth line trains would need the capacity far more than the other commuter lines on a day like today.

LXFlyer

Perhaps one or two 29000 sets were unserviceable?

ICR sets aren't normally rostered on Maynooth in the evening.

devnull

I'd have agreed with you if I hadn't seen a few sets that were more than four cars and commuters working in multiple on the Drogheda line carrying a lot of fresh air.

A far better solution would have been to swap the diagrams, or if ICR's cannot run to Drogheda, split the train in two and have four car on the Drogheda and a four Car on the Maynooth.

LXFlyer

But perhaps they have higher loadings than the Maynooth line and require them? Those trains get very heavy loads too.

Just because you saw 8 car 29000s (which is the norm on the Drogheda line) doesn't mean that there weren't some sets out of service in Drogheda at the maintenance depot.

Grandeeod

TheBandicoot wrote: »

It's quite simple, really.

The government refuses to subvent IE sufficiently to operate its entire fleet.

It used to be "decades of under investment". Now it's "not enough subvention".

Round and round we go!:rolleyes:

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

But perhaps they have higher loadings than the Maynooth line and require them? Those trains get very heavy loads too.

Just because you saw 8 car 29000s (which is the norm on the Drogheda line) doesn't mean that there weren't some sets out of service in Drogheda at the maintenance depot.

What you ended up having is a massively overcrowded 3 car intercity train that is not designed for standing with an 8 car commuter that everyone could find a seat on with plenty spare leaving Connolly, and plenty of standing room too.

Surely a better compromise is a four car on each, if there is not any commuter trains available to run both an 8 car on one line and a 4 car on the other. True trains would still be very full, but nobody would be as uncomfortable as people were on the Maynooth line tonight, the dwell times were shocking on the ICR set, thanks to the door layout being completely unsuitable.

SandyfordGuy

It was crazy tonight during peak

8car trains from Maynooth during peak but a constant stream of three cars in the other direction. The 6,37 was stuck boarding for twenty minites some kids sat under the tables or sitting on them.one guy kept the toilet door open so we could fit a few moee in

Dravokivich

They usually have the standard comutter sets on the maynooth line. The crazy thing, is theyll serve up as far as longford. Inter city sets tend to get run on the docklands service or transition between peak/off peak as far as ive seen.

Judgement Day

Same old story with CIE/IE and, regardless of the unsuitability of 22000's for commuter work and the discomfort of passengers, it's the condition of the inter-city stock after this sort of abuse that I'd be more concerned about. Certainly a lot of the 22000's are getting pretty grotty internally. Nothing ever changes in the parallel universe in which the company operates. I remember when the MkIII's were introduced, they were used for GAA specials within weeks, need I say more. :rolleyes:

Vahevala

Last night, I had to get the train with the buses being off, I honestly didn't think I would survive it, we were literally crushed on the train like sardines and I felt so faint, I honestly thought I was going to collapse... think it put me off using Irish Rail for good..

I am so glad the buses are back in operation, don't think I could go through that again

rubberdiddies

I stopped getting the trains (as an occasional once weekly commuter) on the drogheda line for the best part of a year as more often than not the train that I was getting into and back out of the city was an intercity. The problem I had was that I had 2 kids with me, one of whom was in a buggy. The only place we could fit was in the very tight doorway which wasn't very comfortable. Those carriages aren't designed for buggies

Jamie2k9

rubberdiddies wrote: »

I stopped getting the trains (as an occasional once weekly commuter) on the drogheda line for the best part of a year as more often than not the train that I was getting into and back out of the city was an intercity. The problem I had was that I had 2 kids with me, one of whom was in a buggy. The only place we could fit was in the very tight doorway which wasn't very comfortable. Those carriages aren't designed for buggies

No trains are designed for them at all, they are meant to be folded up.

Now if IE were to introduce childfree carriages or trains I would pay a lot more for the pleasure or even just kick families off who don't want to control their children and let them run around a make noise for the whole journey.

rubberdiddies

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No trains are designed for them at all, they are meant to be folded up.

Now if IE were to introduce childfree carriages or trains I would pay a lot more for the pleasure or even just kick families off who don't want to control their children and let them run around a make noise for the whole journey.

the commuter trains have more space/standing space and usually always at the times I got the train with the kids there was plenty of standing room in front of the doors on the commuter trains. If it got busy I would always fold up the buggy of course. As someone who used the train to work twice a day, every day for 10 years I know what it's like!

my point is though that at the same times I was getting the commuter trains with plenty of space, they put in place intercity trains where the only place I could realistically stand with 2 kids and a buggy was in the very narrow and tight doorway. not only is it uncomfortable, but it blocks the doorway at every station.

noisy/uncontrolled children are an entirely different story. Mine arent allowed to leave my side!

Jamie2k9

rubberdiddies wrote: »

the commuter trains have more space/standing space and usually always at the times I got the train with the kids there was plenty of standing room in front of the doors on the commuter trains. If it got busy I would always fold up the buggy of course. As someone who used the train to work twice a day, every day for 10 years I know what it's like!

my point is though that at the same times I was getting the commuter trains with plenty of space, they put in place intercity trains where the only place I could realistically stand with 2 kids and a buggy was in the very narrow and tight doorway. not only is it uncomfortable, but it blocks the doorway at every station.

noisy/uncontrolled children are an entirely different story. Mine arent allowed to leave my side!

well their is 4 wheelchair areas per 3 coach set.

Not saying its right to have intercity trains on the routes but if they asked all the passengers with seats I'm sure they wouldn't complain as after all way more seats than other commuter trains.

Judgement Day

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No trains are designed for them at all, they are meant to be folded up.

Now if IE were to introduce childfree carriages or trains I would pay a lot more for the pleasure or even just kick families off who don't want to control their children and let them run around a make noise for the whole journey.

I presume that you don't have any children? How about a van on each train, and all the people with babies, OAP's and those with passes could be chucked in out of your sight? :rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

I presume that you don't have any children? How about a van on each train, and all the people with babies, OAP's and those with passes could be chucked in out of your sight? :rolleyes:

You'd be shocked as to how many people would actually desire such a service

Jamie2k9

Judgement Day wrote: »

I presume that you don't have any children? How about a van on each train, and all the people with babies, OAP's and those with passes could be chucked in out of your sight? :rolleyes:

I would be very happy with such a service.:)

No don't have children but they won't be carrying on the way some families do.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

well their is 4 wheelchair areas per 3 coach set.

Not saying its right to have intercity trains on the routes but if they asked all the passengers with seats I'm sure they wouldn't complain as after all way more seats than other commuter trains.

But a peak commuter train will always have people standing, and the overall capacity of an intercity carriage including standing is much less than a commuter train.

On the train involved I'd say they would complain though, since people couldn't get out the seats since the aisle was full of people the whole way down whcih they had to push pass to get off as well as the kids sitting under the tables.

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

But a peak commuter train will always have people standing, and the overall capacity of an intercity carriage including standing is much less than a commuter train.

On the train involved I'd say they would complain though, since people couldn't get out the seats since the aisle was full of people the whole way down whcih they had to push pass to get off as well as the kids sitting under the tables.

Maybe so, but this day there must of being a set or two out of service.

Anyone in IE explain the current stock in service and general set up.

2600 - 8 sets - all based in Cork area.
2700 - 13 sets left the fleet.
2800 - 10 sets, were in Dublin but now moved to Ballina Brach 1 set, now Waterford had one set until earlier this summer but no more.
So where are the 9 sets of these, Limerick - how many sets are their 3 or 4 sets.
2900 - 19 sets - read a lot here last year a number of sets were due to have major overhaul, they used to operate in pairs but more recently that has stopped so should this not of increased the availability of the sets and are these all based in Dublin.

Could some of commuter sets be taken out of Limerick and 22's moved their to solve the problem in Dublin or is it a case of financials that 2 car 2800's are more cost effective in the Limerick area instead of 22's and this is why 22's are being used on some Dublin service.

Although 22's on Maynooth are not usual something must of happened for that evening to have them.

dowlingm

Couple of things:

1. Leo is minister for the area, you'd think IE would be cautious about cutting there (or making a point?)
2. Some evenings when 29Ks are short, it could be because they are the equipment of choice to replace Enterprise failures (such as 208 coughing up the ball on the morning of the 7th) and not the TPWS equipped 22Ks.
3. I think the 26/28s are basically interchangeable between Cork and Limerick, plus 22s would rip up the Nenagh branch.

Jamie2k9

dowlingm wrote: »

1. Leo is minister for the area, you'd think IE would be cautious about cutting there (or making a point?).

Leo made it quiet clear some time ago that he uses the train once a week because it wouldn't look good if a transport minister didn't use public transport. Show how much he cares about the route and transport in his area.

3. I think the 26/28s are basically interchangeable between Cork and Limerick, plus 22s would rip up the Nenagh branch.

That's a lot of sets for what they operate, Limerick also has 22's for shuttle and some WRC services, I just can see 17 sets being required between both areas at all. The other one is at Ballina.

LXFlyer

There are 6 2800 sets in daily use in Limerick for services to Galway, Ennis, Limerick Junction, Ballybrophy and Nenagh, plus another in Ballina. That leaves the remaining 3 to act as maintenance cover in both Limerick and Cork or to strengthen services to 4-car where necessary.