dublin city centre shops selling speaker cable

magicbastarder

the last time i was buying audio gear, it was from the likes of hi-fi corner, lyric hi-fi and richer sounds - so where would be best to go these days in dublin to buy speaker cable?
i'd be looking for bi-wire cable.

cheers!

techdiver

I usually check out Maplin Electronics on Jervis Street for all electronics supplies.

magicbastarder

cheers, i haven't checked them out, wasn't sure if they'd do biwire.

bumper234

Yeah check maplins or Peats just around the corner on Parnell street

Slaphead07

magicbastarder wrote: »

the last time i was buying audio gear, it was from the likes of hi-fi corner, lyric hi-fi and richer sounds - so where would be best to go these days in dublin to buy speaker cable?
i'd be looking for bi-wire cable.

cheers!

Howareye K, hope you're well
In terms of bi-wire what you'll really do is run two normal gauge cables in parallel.

To be honest unless you're bi-amping (using 2 amps for separate treble and bass) there's no real gain in bi-wiring.

techdiver

magicbastarder wrote: »

cheers, i haven't checked them out, wasn't sure if they'd do biwire.

I bought speaker cable for my Logitech Z-5400 a few years back.

Edit: although it was only single speaker cabel. They do have quite a stock of different A/V equipment, so they woud still be your best bet.

You can check their UK website http://www.maplin.co.uk/

magicbastarder

Slaphead07 wrote: »

there's no real gain in bi-wiring.

hello I!
the gain for me is that i've lost some of the 'bridges' which bridge the terminals on the back of my speakers (so i had been using biwire cable with strands twisted together at the amp end); plus for neatness purposes, it was probably easier running one cable.

just thinking out loud, i'm wondering why i didn't just use a short strand of speaker cable to bridge the terminals.

doh.

Slaphead07

magicbastarder wrote: »

just thinking out loud, i'm wondering why i didn't just use a short strand of speaker cable to bridge the terminals.

doh.

That's exactly what you do chief.

magicbastarder

also, how important (if at all) is it to have the cables to the two speakers the same length? is that only important over really long runs?

i just recommissioned my speakers, after a few years of them being in storage. they're on a suspended floor, which is not ideal.

Slaphead07

magicbastarder wrote: »

also, how important (if at all) is it to have the cables to the two speakers the same length? is that only important over really long runs?

i just recommissioned my speakers, after a few years of them being in storage. they're on a suspended floor, which is not ideal.

Strictly speaking cable length does matter but in reality it doesn't. You're not going to hear the difference. Quality would be far more important. In a decent system you'd want at least 79 strand cable.

If your speakers are on spikes just put a 1 cent coin under each spike and it will tighten up the sound. Pretty cheap upgrade! If they're not on spikes they are probably tapped for same and spikes can be bought cheaply on the net or maybe Cloney Audio.

magicbastarder

they're on spikes, and came with a metal disc like a thick coin precisely for use as you described.
i was considering buying a granite slab to put under each speaker; i think it was noel in cloney who suggested that.

Slaphead07

magicbastarder wrote: »

they're on spikes, and came with a metal disc like a thick coin precisely for use as you described.
i was considering buying a granite slab to put under each speaker; i think it was noel in cloney who suggested that.

Slabs are good but try the discs first, suspended floors (floorboards) are very common, it's not an issue really. I think Tesco do a marble chopping board cheap that would do the trick.

magicbastarder

for future reference; maplins only sell 20mm reels of speaker cable in three grades; essentially bell wire, heavy bell wire, and what would be considered normal speaker cable. the latter is €42 for the 20m roll.

peats sell by the metre, and have six or seven options; from €0.50c/m for the cheapest, up to €6.99/m for their priciest normal twin strand QED. they also sell QED biwire silver anniversary cable (which coincidentally, is the stuff i'm replacing), but there was no price on that reel.

TroutMask

The lengths of speaker cable should be identical

Soundman

You could also check www.ie.farnell.com and see if they have what you want. Pretty speedy shipping too.

andy1249

TroutMask wrote: »

The lengths of speaker cable should be identical

They dont need to be , thats a myth perpetrated by people selling expensive wire by the meter.

For details on speaker wire and what you need see here , it has all you need to know , in particular , note the wire table ....

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

The general idea is that for each speaker , the wire impedance should not exceed more than 5% of the impedance of the speaker. So assuming a 4 or 8 Ohm load ( Speaker impedance ) , then as long as the difference in length is not more than the maximum run length as listed in the table for the thickness of the wire .... then you will hear no difference.

In other words , the difference in length can be up 50 feet plus with a 4 ohm load , and 100 feet plus for an 8 Ohm load , and not make a jot of difference ! ( These figures being based on using either 12AWG = 4mm2 wire , or 14AWG = 2mm2 wire )

For your average listening room then , cut the wire for speaker position and neatness , there is no technical reason to spend per meter for wire you dont need just to have them the same length , which serves no purpose unless exceeding the very long limits above !

TroutMask

andy1249 wrote: »

They dont need to be , thats a myth perpetrated by people selling expensive wire by the meter.

For details on speaker wire and what you need see here , it has all you need to know , in particular , note the wire table ....

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

The general idea is that for each speaker , the wire impedance should not exceed more than 5% of the impedance of the speaker. So assuming a 4 or 8 Ohm load ( Speaker impedance ) , then as long as the difference in length is not more than the maximum run length as listed in the table for the thickness of the wire .... then you will hear no difference.

In other words , the difference in length can be up 50 feet plus with a 4 ohm load , and 100 feet plus for an 8 Ohm load , and not make a jot of difference ! ( These figures being based on using either 12AWG = 4mm2 wire , or 14AWG = 2mm2 wire )

For your average listening room then , cut the wire for speaker position and neatness , there is no technical reason to spend per meter for wire you dont need just to have them the same length , which serves no purpose unless exceeding the very long limits above !

This does not take into account damping factor, which is one of the main reasons for matching lengths, and is sonically quite apparent. I don't advocate the purchase of esoteric expensive speaker cable - but i do favour reasonably-priced high-quality OFC multi-strand speaker cable made by a reputable manufacturer known for making quality speaker cable. The cost of matching lengths is minimal, and it is silly to cut corners in this way when building a system.

andy1249

TroutMask wrote: »

This does not take into account damping factor, which is one of the main reasons for matching lengths, and is sonically quite apparent. I don't advocate the purchase of esoteric expensive speaker cable - but i do favour reasonably-priced high-quality OFC multi-strand speaker cable made by a reputable manufacturer known for making quality speaker cable. The cost of matching lengths is minimal, and it is silly to cut corners in this way when building a system.

Damping factor is covered , and , keeping within the limits mentioned in terms of overall impedance , Wire Guage and length , is completely and utterly irrelevant to the differences in length of your speaker cable runs ...

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#damping

Regarding " OFC from a reputable manufacturer " , thats absolute nonsense , copper wire of the correct thickness is all you need , whether that be from high priced " Audio Expert" charlatans or twin and earth from the local hardware store , as long as its thick enough its good enough and that has been proven time and time again.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-length-differences-do-they-matter

TroutMask

Not nonsense. Twin and earth mains cable is not OFC - which can cause problems down the line with oxidation. Also, mains cable contains impurities, and does not feature the desirable twin gauges of copper strands found in the reasonably priced low-mid brands like QED Monster et al. Damping factor is poo-poo'd in the opinionated website which you seem to use as your sole source for speaker cable information. This info in DF is based on outmoded research, I've experience sonic differences due to DF in my own setups and even exploited it for strategical purposes in installations.

Once again, I'm not recommending the use of high-end, outrageously expensive brands. But made-for-purpose speaker cable always sounds far superior to hardware/electrical store stock.

andy1249

TroutMask wrote: »

Not nonsense. Twin and earth mains cable is not OFC - which can cause problems down the line with oxidation. Also, mains cable contains impurities, and does not feature the desirable twin gauges of copper strands found in the reasonably priced low-mid brands like QED Monster et al. Damping factor is poo-poo'd in the opinionated website which you seem to use as your sole source for speaker cable information. This info in DF is based on outmoded research, I've experience sonic differences due to DF in my own setups and even exploited it for strategical purposes in installations.

Once again, I'm not recommending the use of high-end, outrageously expensive brands. But made-for-purpose speaker cable always sounds far superior to hardware/electrical store stock.

Again , covered in the link above .... here is the section on OFC ...
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#oxygenfree

It doesnt matter what grade of copper you use .... even the cheapest grade of copper is pure enough .... all that stuff you are posting is all part of an elaborate sales pitch from people selling copper wire at hugely inflated prices ... none of it is true .... the audio cable industry has be perpetrating this fraud for years !

Regarding damping factor , who said that was my only source ? The audioholics link is another , and is merely the top of a very very long list in a google search on the subject , it includes the math , thats why I picked that one , the math is not wrong , that speaker wire length affects damping factor is without doubt complete nonsense , just like the OFC debacle , its only used by people selling overpriced wire , anyone with the engineering background will tell you so !

Ears are easily fooled , expectation bias is of primary concern , and the only valid listening tests are blind ones , never has any speaker wire of the correct gauge been distinguishable from any other speaker wire of the correct gauge in a Blind test , and that simple fact says all that needs to be said.

No serious money should be spent on copper wire , it is by far , the least critical component of any Hi Fi setup.

TroutMask

I refer you to this paper:
Effects of Cable, Loudspeaker,and Amplifier
Interactions
AES Journal Article (E-lib)
JAES JAES Volume 39 Issue 6 pp. 461-468; June 1991

It is a more contemporary view which includes a discussion on damping factor (induced by cables). Interestingly, some of (but not all of) the 'hardware store' cables tested returned satisfactory results. However, some of the audiophile cables fared well too. This gives some validation for your position, unless you view Audio Engineering Society as part of this mysterious audio industry conspiracy to which you keep referring. I'll still maintain that the lengths should be identical, and this paper, although it does not explicitly support this view, does support it by inference.

Unlike you, i'm not hard and fast in my position, i've used hardware store offerings as speaker cable in the past and will do again in the future, no doubt. I just prefer the sound of certain brands of speaker cable, and the inductance, damping factor, and use of OFC copper are the main reason I use them. Besides, they're not that expensive, and when I meet the reps at trade shows, they don't seem to be part of a conspiracy, just professionals trying to make a living - kind of like the guy in the hardware store!

andy1249

TroutMask wrote: »

I refer you to this paper:
Effects of Cable, Loudspeaker,and Amplifier
Interactions
AES Journal Article (E-lib)
JAES JAES Volume 39 Issue 6 pp. 461-468; June 1991

It is a more contemporary view which includes a discussion on damping factor (induced by cables). Interestingly, some of (but not all of) the 'hardware store' cables tested returned satisfactory results. However, some of the audiophile cables fared well too. This gives some validation for your position, unless you view Audio Engineering Society as part of this mysterious audio industry conspiracy to which you keep referring. I'll still maintain that the lengths should be identical, and this paper, although it does not explicitly support this view, does support it by inference.

Unlike you, i'm not hard and fast in my position, i've used hardware store offerings as speaker cable in the past and will do again in the future, no doubt. I just prefer the sound of certain brands of speaker cable, and the inductance, damping factor, and use of OFC copper are the main reason I use them. Besides, they're not that expensive, and when I meet the reps at trade shows, they don't seem to be part of a conspiracy, just professionals trying to make a living - kind of like the guy in the hardware store!

That paper costs 20 dollars , Im not paying that .... besides , the audioholics article I linked to above includes the math , and I suspect has the same conclusions , yes there are differences , but none anything close to audible and all totally swamped by the real contributor to cable performance , which is lumped RLC.
My position is based on the fact that I hold a Msc in Electronic Engineering , and know this Cable snakeoil pseudo-science for what it is.

For the Record , All of these snake oil sellers claim their cables performance "improvements" are "inferred" by genuine papers , something the writers of most of these genuine papers' authors would be horrified to discover !

By the way , when it comes to the math of what goes on in copper wire in the 0hz to 20Khz range , the vast majority of that science was done and dusted in the late 1800's , so attacking an article based on its age is ridiculous , the basic fundamentals here are not going to change , no great discoveries are left to be made in terms of copper wire , no matter what BS the cable sellers come up with , in any case the audioholics article is 2004 , not 1991 like the AES paper , which I strongly suspect has exactly the same data and that both have essentially the same conclusion as Rogers 1967 and 1975 articles.

TroutMask

The trouble with approaching audio with a purely quantitative Kelvinistic science-based approach is that it does not take into account the qualitative aspects of audio technology. The math is important, sure - but listening tests are important as well.

If 'lumped RLC' is the real contributor, then cable lengths should be identical as mismatched lengths will have different summed RLCs.

I'm afraid your qualifications doesn't give you the right to brand all manufacturers of high-priced (or even medium-priced) cables as frauds. This is your opinion, your bugbear - it is not shared by the average listener. Are there manufacturers making dubious claims and charging too much, sure! Are they all like this - no. I suspect that you can't hear the difference between good cables and bad cables, and so you buy into this silly conspiracy theory.

In any event - the Audioholics reviewer recommends three (non-hardware store) cables. They range in price from $109 - $33 per side - this is exactly the kind of cable I was recommending to the OP anyway, except my recommendations were less expensive!

andy1249

TroutMask wrote: »

The trouble with approaching audio with a purely quantitative Kelvinistic science-based approach is that it does not take into account the qualitative aspects of audio technology. The math is important, sure - but listening tests are important as well.

If 'lumped RLC' is the real contributor, then cable lengths should be identical as mismatched lengths will have different summed RLCs.

I'm afraid your qualifications doesn't give you the right to brand all manufacturers of high-priced (or even medium-priced) cables as frauds. This is your opinion, your bugbear - it is not shared by the average listener. Are there manufacturers making dubious claims and charging too much, sure! Are they all like this - no. I suspect that you can't hear the difference between good cables and bad cables, and so you buy into this silly conspiracy theory.

In any event - the Audioholics reviewer recommends three (non-hardware store) cables. They range in price from $109 - $33 per side - this is exactly the kind of cable I was recommending to the OP anyway, except my recommendations were less expensive!

Regarding RLC , didnt you understand this part ?

The typical 12AWG zip cord has about 3.4 mohms of loop resistance per foot, .200uH/ft of Inductance and about 20pF/ft of capacitance. As the cable length increases, these three parameters increase proportionally. However, it takes very long lengths of cable to cause measurable, let alone audible differences. If we examine the data from our various Speaker Cable Face Off articles, particularly Speaker Cable Face Off I, we see that a 10ft length of 12AWG zip cord terminated into a 4 ohm load only experiences -.088dB of loss at 20kHz and about 2nsec of group delay. Increase the cable length to about 50ft and we do see losses surmount to about -.745dB and 209nsec. Note that at 20 kHz, a phase shift of 36 degrees represents 5 microseconds (almost 24 times larger than our 50ft cable delay), this delay being considered as close to the limit of human directionality perception.

In a nutshell , it takes 50 feet or so of difference in length before any audible difference can be heard , thats as posted and whats in the wire table above.
Having a mess of wires in your setup just to have them the same length makes no sense.

Regarding listening tests , Im all for them , as long as they are blind , Ive said that earlier , its a fact that supposed audible differences in cables can usually no longer be heard once the listener does not know which one he is "listening" too.
That means Expectation Bias is the culprit , and the difference is not real , just imagined.
As said , no cable of the correct gauge for the system , is distinguishable from any other cable of the correct gauge for the system regardless of the manufacturers claims.

Note that blind tests have positively distinguished audible differences between cables when the gauge is not correct , especially in the case of very thin gauge wire usually supplied with all in one systems , most would call this "zip" wire , usually less than 1mm2 or AWG 17/16.

Regarding "My" conspiracy theory or "My" opinion , a quick google search will show you this is not personal to me , the AV industry is awash with conmen , that is a fact , and no section more so than the cable section.
Its a fact that some sellers try to shift copper wire priced at many thousands of euros per meter using dubious pseudo scientific claims , and this section of the industry has attracted the likes of James Randi , who normally only debunks so called psychics .... he once had a million dollars up for grabs for anyone who could distinguish their high priced wire from his in a blind test , no one claimed it .... no surprise there.

Point being , its only a conspiracy theory if the claims are wild and there is no solid evidence .... High priced wire conmen are everywhere in the Hi fi industry , and its no conspiracy theory.

An example ....
http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2008/11/most-expensive-speaker-cable-world-audioquest-audiophile/

Hi Fi products are engineered products , there is no "magic" involved , if there are differences between any products they are measureable , if they are not measureable they are not there , simple as that.

The Purpose of Rogers site above is to supply the correct information and stop people getting ripped off , as such it collects all the relevant information in one place and is an excellent resource.

The biggest margin any AV seller has is on cables , as such , most will tell you the most outrageous nonsense to shift an extra few meters of cable. This happens every time someone walks into a shop to buy a TV , they will almost certainly tell you their 100 euro HDMI cable is what you need or you wont get the best quality , again absolute nonsense , such a thing is impossible.

Likewise with any Hi Fi system , you will almost certainly be told to budget a fixed percentage on speaker wires and interconnects , again , absolute nonsense , get the correct gauge and no more improvements can be had regardless of how much you spend.

The Industry is rife with it , and it is far from "My" personal opinion.

Armed with the right information , buyers can avoid this unnecessary expense , and that information I have posted above for those who care to read it.

I like My Hi Fi and have spent a great deal on it , I like my music and have a huge collection , What I dont like is getting ripped off or seeing other people getting ripped off , I have the necessary technical background and every time I see dubious claims I will challenge them !

TroutMask

OK, for the last time - I do not advocate the purchase of grossly overpriced cables. I don't know who these people are. I don't know who sells these products. I don't know who buys them. I say this for the third time: 'You don't need to buy super-expensive hifi cables, speaker or otherwise to get good results'. Perhaps you did not read my posts, but don't lump me in with the expensive 'trophy hifi' brigade - I am not that guy. Capiche?

Sure, those numbers will work, prove your point. But they are not the full story. A listening test will reveal the difference in a setup with substantially mismatched cables. This is not only my experience but also that of every sane audiophile and pro-audio person i have ever met in the 30 years i've worked in the music biz.

Your site (Audioholics) that you use as part of your argument actually agrees with me. In fact, they recommend spending more than I would! See here, much more expensive than the per/metre stock that I recommended:

http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/impact-acoustics-sonicwave-speaker-cables

Any industry has its con artists, e.g., the car industry. I'm sure the OP has the good sense to do the market and not be misled. I mean, who listens to hifi sales people anyway?! I can only think of one that i would trust. All of my own cables are made by me, using professional stock from factories where the workers have unions. I know a thing or two about cables, and I know enough to know that maths models and tests are not the full story.

andy1249

OK, for the last time - I do not advocate the purchase of grossly overpriced cables. I don't know who these people are. I don't know who sells these products. I don't know who buys them. I say this for the third time: 'You don't need to buy super-expensive hifi cables, speaker or otherwise to get good results'. Perhaps you did not read my posts, but don't lump me in with the expensive 'trophy hifi' brigade - I am not that guy. Capiche?

You accused me of buying into "Silly Conspiracy Theories " .... its far from a conspiracy theory , in fact is rife in the industry , my previous post refutes that , you see how that works ?

Im of the opinion its you that cant follow the topic .... Im saying cable branding does not matter , copper is copper , and that for any given correct gauge , differences in length dont matter until you reach 50 feet , that is a verifiable fact.
This is the other point you made that Im refuting , there is no need to buy extra cable to make them the same length , there is no data to support the idea they have to be the same length, this myth was created by cable sellers , no one else.
If you think any of the above papers are agreeing with you on this then you are misunderstanding them !

So Regarding " Cables have to be the same length " you are definitely wrong on this point , do some research , Im not the only one that will tell you so.

Also , and on the contrary , the Engineering and the numbers are "all" that matter , and any positive result in any blind listening test will back that up , if its not measurable its in your imagination , as any properly conducted listening test will prove and has proved countless times.

I know a thing or two about cables, and I know enough to know that maths models and tests are not the full story.

Would you care to fill in some of the rest of this " Story" then ?

TroutMask

Come on, every industry has con artists - property? That doesn't mean we fall for the pitch - audio is no different from any other industry - you are saying it is and you're wrong - it's the same as any other business and you know this.

Copper is not copper - mains cable is not OFC and it does not have strands of different diameters. Try soldering a 10-year-old mains cable - the copper will be totally oxidised. With OFC, you just strip back the insulation and it's gleaming - ready to take solder or mate viably with a connector block.

I disagree with you about the 50 feet, it depends on the gauge as you well know.

If the numbers were all that mattered, then half of the listening test research carried out in the field of auditory cognition would be thrown out. Clearly this has not happened, the converse is true: the data from listening tests is often corroborated as new neural imaging techniques come online.

I think perhaps my hearing is more sensitive and attuned than yours?

andy1249

TroutMask wrote: »

Come on, every industry has con artists - property? That doesn't mean we fall for the pitch - audio is no different from any other industry - you are saying it is and you're wrong - it's the same as any other business and you know this.

Name one other industry that takes an inconsequential part , hypes up how important it is , tells outrageous lies about it , and charges up to 8000 times the price it should be , and that does this as standard practice ?

I take it we agree is not a " Silly Conspiracy Theory " any more then ?

Copper is not copper - mains cable is not OFC and it does not have strands of different diameters. Try soldering a 10-year-old mains cable - the copper will be totally oxidised. With OFC, you just strip back the insulation and it's gleaming - ready to take solder or mate viably with a connector block.

Already been answered above .... and with data.

I disagree with you about the 50 feet, it depends on the gauge as you well know.

Again , Ive said that above , nothing new here , the point your avoiding is the original one , the fact that the do not have to be the same length.

If the numbers were all that mattered, then half of the listening test research carried out in the field of auditory cognition would be thrown out. Clearly this has not happened, the converse is true: the data from listening tests is often corroborated as new neural imaging techniques come online.

Think about what your saying for a minute , how do you think audio products are engineered , do you think they just randomly throw parts together and listen to the result to determine whats good ?

Of course not , the theory precedes the design , the measurements verify the design , if not , the design goes to rev 2 and so on .... only the figures determine the release to market.
Its the theory and the numbers that determine a good design , always !

Data from listening tests is used , but where listening tests are involved its mostly minor , and usually used to verify if something someone with " Golden Ears " has claimed is true or not! This is the reason why most Blind listening tests have a negative result , as almost always , the claims are based on expectation bias or something someone thought they heard , ears are the most unreliable measuring equipment that exists

I think perhaps my hearing is more sensitive and attuned than yours?

Standard BS quoted by anyone that doesnt have data to refute properly , " I have magic ears " .... nonsense , and you know it !
You will fail to identify any difference in a blind test , just like every single other person that thinks they have " Magic or Golden Ears "

Answers in bold in your quote !

Slaphead07

Really lads, take it from someone who has gotten involved in a lot of these pointless "debates" over the years neither of you are coming out of this particularly well. Just kiss and make up, sit back and enjoy the music.

The Ritz

Mod Comment

There's a sticker at the top of the forum about Cables, this kind of tit for tat argument is pointless and does nothing to help the OP. I'm closing this thread, please don't resurrect this kind argument again.


Ritz