Judges in the Supreme Court

Manach

As per the recent Courts and Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2013, this allows Appointment of two additional Supreme Court Judges.
So the number will be now 10 with Ms Justice Mary Laffoy and Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne.
My question, is there a maximum number of judges set - in that could the government pass another bill next year adding more judges?
Thanks.

LowKeyReturn

I presume they will if the Court of Civil Appeal goes ahead, or are they going to be High Court Judges?

Cody Pomeray

Manach wrote: »

My question, is there a maximum number of judges set

The constitution says: No. Therefore there is no constitutional limit.

Statute says: Yes. Therefore there is a limit in statute law.
This shall be limited at nine ordinary judges of the S.Ct along with the Chief Justice, in accordance with the Courts (Establishment and Constitution) Act 1961, as amended by the Courts and Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2013.

However, these judges of the Supreme Court have it as an additional obligation to sit as an additional judge of the High Court from time to time, when called upon by the Chief Justice to do so. This happens most notably with the Court of Criminal Appeal.

So the nine ordinary judges of the supreme court are not restricted to the supreme court.

could the government pass another bill next year adding more judges?

Yes, and it probably will in the case of the new Court of Appeal.

camphor

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The constitution says: No. Therefore there is no constitutional limit.


However, these judges of the Supreme Court have it as an additional obligation to sit as an additional judge of the High Court from time to time, when called upon by the Chief Justice to do so. This happens most notably with the Court of Criminal Appeal.

The Court of Criminal Appeal is not the High Court and the Supreme Court member sits as a Judge of the Supreme Court on it. It happens relatively rarely that a judge of the Supreme Court sits as a High Court judge. Judge Hardiman sat in Ennis a few years ago as a Judge of the High Court. In some cases Supreme court judges have to sit as High Court judges to clear up some outstanding matters that were before them in the High Court prior to their elevation.
It is also the case that a High Court judge can sit on the Supreme Court. The last example that I recall was Judge O 'Neill sitting on a case in the Supreme Court which was heard in Irish. Apparently there weren't enough judges available in the Supreme Court with good enough Irish

Pro Hoc Vice

camphor wrote: »

The Court of Criminal Appeal is not the High Court and the Supreme Court member sits as a Judge of the Supreme Court on it. It happens relatively rarely that a judge of the Supreme Court sits as a High Court judge. Judge Hardiman sat in Ennis a few years ago as a Judge of the High Court. In some cases Supreme court judges have to sit as High Court judges to clear up some outstanding matters that were before them in the High Court prior to their elevation.
It is also the case that a High Court judge can sit on the Supreme Court. The last example that I recall was Judge O 'Neill sitting on a case in the Supreme Court which was heard in Irish. Apparently there weren't enough judges available in the Supreme Court with good enough Irish

When the High Court sits on Circuit hearing appeals from the Circuit Court, it is usuall/normal for one high court judge and one SC judge to go on circuit. This lead to the situation where Judge Geoghegan sitting in cork with his wife Judge Finlay Geoghan hearing appeals. Now that appeals are tagaged on at the end of normal high court sittings don't think it happens any more.

coylemj

infosys wrote: »

When the High Court sits on Circuit hearing appeals from the Circuit Court, it is usuall/normal for one high court judge and one SC judge to go on circuit.

I'm not sure that's how it works, I think that HC judges travel from Dublin and go 'on circuit' whereby they sit in circuit courtrooms (e.g. Mullingar, Naas etc.) to hear civil appeals from the CC.

CC judges in turn go 'on circuit' to District Court buildings to hear civil appeals so the CC judge from Mullingar might from time to time go to Athlone DC to hear appeals from civil cases in the local District Courts e.g. Athlone, Moate etc.

I can't see how you'd have a situation that you described where HC and CC judges would be in the same court building and both described as being 'on circuit'.

Pro Hoc Vice

coylemj wrote: »

I'm not sure that's how it works, I think that HC judges travel from Dublin and go 'on circuit' whereby they sit in circuit courtrooms (e.g. Mullingar, Naas etc.) to hear civil appeals from the CC.

CC judges in turn go 'on circuit' to District Court buildings to hear civil appeals so the CC judge from Mullingar might from time to time go to Athlone DC to hear appeals from civil cases in the local District Courts e.g. Athlone, Moate etc.

I can't see how you'd have a situation that you described where HC and CC judges would be in the same court building and both described as being 'on circuit'.

I never said Circuit judges and High Court judges would be in the same court, you are correct as the circuit judges would usually be out on circuit. My sloppy term, I suppose the correct term is the "going judges of Assizes" lol, to describe the High Court sitting hearing Circuit Court Appeals, at local circuit courts The point I was making that when such appeals are heard in Cork Court House on Washington Street, there was usually one High Court Judge and one Supreme Court Judge.

McCrack

Are people thinking of the High Court provincial sittings?

Pro Hoc Vice

McCrack wrote: »

Are people thinking of the High Court provincial sittings?

No, the High Court can and does sit as the High Court in provisional city's and towns, as the High Court personal injuries and non jury etc.. I am talking only about when the high court sits in these locations exercising its appellate function. In Cork this now happens in the same week, with appeals at the end of the normal high court sittings. So I don't think they send Supreme Court judges any more.

http://courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/16c93c36d3635d5180256e3f003a4580/b0e74d99c0af876b80256fe8003c0329?OpenDocument

As you can see above in Cork for example the High Court will sit from the 7 - 18 October and then will sit as an appeal court from the 21 -25 October.

coylemj

I read somewhere that the CJ can sit as a judge in the District Court, this by definition would be the most extreme example of a judge moving up or down the judicial ladder for a specific sitting, has it ever happened?

Victor

Manach wrote: »

As per the recent Courts and Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2013, this allows Appointment of two additional Supreme Court Judges.
So the number will be now 10 with Ms Justice Mary Laffoy and Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne.
My question, is there a maximum number of judges set - in that could the government pass another bill next year adding more judges?
Thanks.

I'm wondering should it be restricted to 9 to avoid the situation of two full 5-judge panels coming to different conclusions on similar matters?

coylemj

Victor wrote: »

I'm wondering should it be restricted to 9 to avoid the situation of two full 5-judge panels coming to different conclusions on similar matters?

But aside from a constitutional case, isn't every case different so there isn't really the potential for legal conflict?

Pro Hoc Vice

coylemj wrote: »

I read somewhere that the CJ can sit as a judge in the District Court, this by definition would be the most extreme example of a judge moving up or down the judicial ladder for a specific sitting, has it ever happened?

Never heard of it happening, would be interesting to see.

Cody Pomeray

camphor wrote: »

The Court of Criminal Appeal is not the High Court

I was not intending to suggest The Court of Criminal Appeal is anything else; the obvious point I was making related to the movement of judges between courts, as needed, in accordance with statute. It was also intended to imply that there may be relevance for the new Court of Appeal.

and the Supreme Court member sits as a Judge of the Supreme Court on it.

While the Supreme Court Judge sitting in the Court of Criminal Appeal remains a Judge of the Supreme Court, for that period of time when s/he sits in the Court of Criminal Appeal, s/he is also a Judge of the Court of Criminal Appeal, or rather s/he is an "additional" Judge of that court, even if it has no Presidentially appointed membership. There is no problem with this temporary sort of dual or "additional" membership so long as it is, inter alia, of a temporary nature (Haughey v. Moriarty [1999])

coylemj wrote: »

I read somewhere that the CJ can sit as a judge in the District Court, this by definition would be the most extreme example of a judge moving up or down the judicial ladder for a specific sitting, has it ever happened?

I don't know of any statute or rule that generally bars it. Certainly there is no general constitutional bar, but I can't imagine why it would be necessary or desirable.

Pro Hoc Vice

gozunda wrote: »

Does this mean we are down two High court judges & are they to be replaced?

They will be replaced.

gozunda

infosys wrote: »

They will be replaced.

Thanks infosys

I wonder is this in addition to the two new high court judges announced in July 25th?. Not too sure what the current number of High Court Judges are but I believe there is a limit of 37. So are we seriosly up or down atm?

Pro Hoc Vice

gozunda wrote: »

Thanks infosys

I wonder is this in addition to the two new high court judges announced in July 25th?. Not too sure what the current number of High Court Judges are but I believe there is a limit of 37. So are we seriosly up or down atm?

http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/0/646E98A7939A4C65802576D9005652F8

gozunda

infosys wrote: »

http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/0/646E98A7939A4C65802576D9005652F8

I count 36 on that list including Dunne & Lafoy - I see that Barr & Keane are already in place - so that us 3 missing?

Cody Pomeray

There are 36 judges in total but that includes the President (of the High Court).

The number of ordinary judges of the High Court is capped at 35 in accordance with the Courts and Court Officers (Amendment) Act 2007. The High Court is currently at 35, including Judges Laffoy and Dunne.

Obviously I'm only talking about judges specifically appointed to the HC. Judges can be drafted in when needs be, as mentioned earlier.

gozunda

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

There are 36 judges in total but that includes the President (of the High Court).

The number of ordinary judges of the High Court is capped at 35 in accordance with the Courts and Court Officers (Amendment) Act 2007. The High Court is currently at 35, including Judges Laffoy and Dunne

This must be out of date then


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/high_court.html

Pro Hoc Vice

gozunda wrote: »

I count 36 on that list including Dunne & Lafoy - I see that Barre & Keane are already in place - so that us 3 missing?

Barr and Keane are on the list with Dunne & Lafoy. Which is 36, so with out Dunne and Lafoy it's down to 34 which is 2 places to be filled. There are 36 ordinary members of the High Court.

Cody Pomeray

No, my old notes might be out of date, more likely!

It's likely I'm missing some amendment since 2007.