Has Church Attendance become a Middle-Class Practice?

Clareboy

I live in a typical working-class area and I have noticed that in my street only a handful of the local residents would be regular church-goers. I also notice that those involved in church activities such as Ministers of The Eucharist, lay-readers, choir members and the parish council are all from middle-class backgrounds. Certainly in my parish, church attendance has become a largely middle-class practice. I wonder is it the same way in other parishes?

homer911

Sounds like an impossible question to answer unless you are well travelled

martinedwards

pretty mixed in out church.

we have teachers, a retired bank manager, and accountant, nurses, and salt of the earth labourers and unemployed folk too.

we have a ver yopen policy as far as "helpers" are concerned and we have all sorts doing those jobs too.

ravima

Unfortunately, (for the RC church), we lost what you call the 'working class' many years ago. The middle class are probably the largest group in the Irish RC church at present.

That will hopefully change with the current pope, who wants to renew and regrow the links with the poor.

True Christianity should encompass all, and all should be charitable and loving to each other. No one in the Christian community should be in want. That is a hard benchmark for us to reach as it means we must lose some of our physical attractions and actually help others.

Manach

Given the current recession, this may have effected those on the lower reaches of the socio-economic spectrum disproportionately and forced numbers to emigrate. I do notice and welcome a fair amount of non-national church-goers, some of whom work in the services sector.
However as to the definition of class, this has always been a nebulous criteria to define outside academia.

hinault

For various reasons, I attend John's Lane, Mount Argus and St.Agnes churches.

I find that each church has a good cross section of parishioners, readers, Eucharistic ministers, choir members from all sorts of backgrounds.

michellepinto

Probably just ego issues with the upper class. But anyways, can't speak for all rite?

Clareboy

ravima wrote: »

Unfortunately, (for the RC church), we lost what you call the 'working class' many years ago. The middle class are probably the largest group in the Irish RC church at present.

That will hopefully change with the current pope, who wants to renew and regrow the links with the poor.

True Christianity should encompass all, and all should be charitable and loving to each other. No one in the Christian community should be in want. That is a hard benchmark for us to reach as it means we must lose some of our physical attractions and actually help others.

Totally agree, the Irish RC Church has lost contact with the working class people of this country. Most priests come from a farming or middle-class background and with some rare exceptions are more likely to surround themselves with people of their own class.

Also I feel that change in the church's s attitude will have to come from the ground up. It will take a long time for the Pope's attitude to the poor to filter down through the ranks.

BrianCalgary

The Evangelical church I went to for 15 years is very mid to upper income levels and 97 per cent white. The RC church I now go to is a thorough mix of incomes and ethnic backgrounds.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Depends on the location I presume. My local Catholic church in Tipperary still has a mixture from all sections of society.

Sandals and Shorts

Very mixed in my local Church as well. I don't see much of a working/middle class divide in Ireland, that's more of an English obsession. Most Irish people as far as I can tell have to work for a living.

smcgiff

I would imagine there would be a greater distinction age wise, with congregations getting older. I'm not surprised office holders come from the middle class.

Clareboy

Sandals and Shorts wrote: »

Very mixed in my local Church as well. I don't see much of a working/middle class divide in Ireland, that's more of an English obsession. Most Irish people as far as I can tell have to work for a living.

Glad to read that there are churches where all classes are welcomed. You must be joking when you say that there is not a working/middle class divide in Ireland! The reality is that in many communities ' working class ' stands for not working. It all depend on the type of work people actually do.

hotmail.com

The Catholic Church did no favours to the poor of Ireland (rape and abuse), hence the working class has turned their back on them.

lmaopml

I come from a working class background. My extended family have been helped by others volunteering time and indeed the SVDP have helped other extended family members - they don't advertise it, but have told about it in gratitude to close family members - Pride huh?

I'm a working class background Catholic revert, who was all over the place, anything from agnostic to sympathetic humanist, to I don't friggin know what I am...confused person.

I've done everything from teaching to being involved in design and engineering - but I would regard myself as a working class person and no more or less. I'm still a Catholic revert however. It may have taken twenty years but there ya go...and I never realised the depths of the faith and how reasonable it is till I searched and researched, and knew it's people a little better than when I was merely a child with a tiny seed.

Benny_Cake

I've no idea if I'm working class or middle class! That said, I remember reading a while back that mass attendance in one working class area of Dublin had dropped to 3%. I occasionally went to Mass in a local church when I used to live in inner city Dublin and I'm pretty sure that had it not been for the immigrant community, the church would have had to shut it's doors.

So I think that there may be some truth that church attendance has dropped more quickly among working class people than society as a whole. I currently attend a Quaker meeting which is insanely middle class. To be fair, I think it's something they're all too aware of though.

ONeill2013

i'm not sure of the official definitions of each class but in my rural parish all sorts of people attend mass, teachers, bank managers, builders, unemployed, etc.

green_bow

Manach wrote: »

Given the current recession, this may have effected those on the lower reaches of the socio-economic spectrum disproportionately and forced numbers to emigrate. I do notice and welcome a fair amount of non-national church-goers, some of whom work in the services sector.
However as to the definition of class, this has always been a nebulous criteria to define outside academia.

this rescession has effected the middle class disproportionately

the rich class ( small minority ) has if anything become wealthier while the so called welfare class have not suffered that much , welfare is still very generous


as for the OP,s question

I don't know , I wouldn't say its as much of a reality as in ameirca where going to church is very much a middle if not upper middle class pursuit , capitalism and mainline Protestantism go together in America , not so much with Catholicism

Emme

hotmail.com wrote: »

The Catholic Church did no favours to the poor of Ireland (rape and abuse), hence the working class has turned their back on them.

The Church of Ireland did no favours to the poor members of their congregations. Many poor COI people opted out by marrying Catholics and taking on the religion of their spouse.

brian_t

Emme wrote: »

.... and taking on the religion of their spouse.

I think that this was more to do with pressure from the Catholic church to change then from their dissatisfaction with the COI church.

homer911

brian_t wrote: »

I think that this was more to do with pressure from the Catholic church to change then from their dissatisfaction with the COI church.

And indifference to their own faith, but nothing to do with being "poor". Bit of a general, unsupported statement there Emme..

Emme

homer911 wrote: »

And indifference to their own faith, but nothing to do with being "poor". Bit of a general, unsupported statement there Emme..

My point is that the COI favoured the middle and upper classes more than the Catholic church. There are some changes now thanks to immigrants reinvigorating the church, but up until then poor members of the COI were marginalised. As long as the poor weren't seen or heard it was OK with the COI.

Some poor people left the COI because the COI was indifferent to them and they saw the Catholic church of the time as more inclusive of the poor.

Manach

green_bow wrote: »

this rescession has effected the middle class disproportionately

the rich class ( small minority ) has if anything become wealthier while the so called welfare class have not suffered that much , welfare is still very generous


as for the OP,s question

I don't know , I wouldn't say its as much of a reality as in ameirca where going to church is very much a middle if not upper middle class pursuit , capitalism and mainline Protestantism go together in America , not so much with Catholicism

I would disagree. The people I know who have emigrated and are likely not coming back have come from a lower socio-ecnomincal group. From both my family history (where the Church was mentioned as a supporting structure in the new home country) and academic work, it is the poorer classes in society that migrate for a better life.
However, you might have a point on the S/W payments.

hotmail.com

Emme wrote: »

My point is that the COI favoured the middle and upper classes more than the Catholic church. There are some changes now thanks to immigrants reinvigorating the church, but up until then poor members of the COI were marginalised. As long as the poor weren't seen or heard it was OK with the COI.

Some poor people left the COI because the COI was indifferent to them and they saw the Catholic church of the time as more inclusive of the poor.

Well how wrong they were. The Catholic Church abused and exploited the poor in Ireland.

I don't even agree with your statement by the way. Have you any evidence for this fanciful idea?

Jan T.

I don't know what middle class is even supposed to be, something dreamed up by advertisers to make us buy more stuff we don't need, or by people wanting to create and perpetuate an artifical division perhaps ? Anyway's all walks of life attend our local chapel, from brain surgeons to window cleaners. Personally I'm intrested in the person and how people treat one another rather than what imported english class structure we may or may not fit into due to a current day job. What people do or don't for a living is of no intrest to me. In the end our earthly bodies will all be packed and stacked tight beside one another in the grave yard regardless. It doesn't take much land to hold us all in the end up, and there is no tow bar on the hearse.

recedite

Emme wrote: »

My point is that the COI favoured the middle and upper classes more than the Catholic church.....
Some poor people left the COI because the COI was indifferent to them and they saw the Catholic church of the time as more inclusive of the poor.

I notice that the COI all send their kids to the same school, to get the exact same education, no matter how poor or how rich the parents.
Not so with Catholics, where the ordinary folk go to free schools and the wealthier segregate off into private schools as soon as they can.

Thats why the prods all grow up with the same accent, no matter which side of the tracks they live, or what their background is, and a more equal chance to "make it" in the world. Maybe you are seeing this and mistakenly thinking they have banished all the poor ones to another religion?

Clareboy

Jan T. wrote: »

I don't know what middle class is even supposed to be, something dreamed up by advertisers to make us buy more stuff we don't need, or by people wanting to create and perpetuate an artifical division perhaps ? Anyway's all walks of life attend our local chapel, from brain surgeons to window cleaners. Personally I'm intrested in the person and how people treat one another rather than what imported english class structure we may or may not fit into due to a current day job. What people do or don't for a living is of no intrest to me. In the end our earthly bodies will all be packed and stacked tight beside one another in the grave yard regardless. It doesn't take much land to hold us all in the end up, and there is no tow bar on the hearse.

Delighted to read that all classes of people attend your local chapel. As regards class structure, its alive and well in modern Ireland, where people are judged by where they live, the size of the house they live in, the kind of job they have, where they drink, the kind of car they drive etc.

Emme

hotmail.com wrote: »

Well how wrong they were. The Catholic Church abused and exploited the poor in Ireland.

I don't disagree but the Catholic poor may not have felt as isolated as the Protestant poor because there was more of them.

hotmail.com wrote: »

I don't even agree with your statement by the way. Have you any evidence for this fanciful idea?

The Protestant poor "escaped" through emigration or intermarriage with Catholics. The Protestant church abused and exploited their own poor just as much but were better at hiding it than the Catholic church. So much so that the victims of abuse in a Protestant orphanage, The Bethany Home, are still fighting for redress. If you read any of Derek Leinster's books you will see how poor members of the COI were treated.

The Protestant poor hid their poverty from the larger Catholic community (don't let the side down :rolleyes:) and that is one reason why people aren't willing to believe me. When people think of Protestants they visualise comfortably off urban groups (David McWilliams sometimes refers to them in his articles) or in the countryside, foxhunting anglo-Irish types living in crumbling Georgian houses. Some of these people exist, but there are also pockets of relatively poor Protestant farmers living in the midlands or on isolated hill farms. They are a dying breed, but for a long time they kept their heads down and hid their poverty from the surrounding community. Naturally enough most children of such people got as far away from the community as soon as possible.

recedite wrote: »

I notice that the COI all send their kids to the same school, to get the exact same education, no matter how poor or how rich the parents.

That isn't always the case. I am Protestant and some people from my family got an excellent all round education including GAA in the local community school with Catholic classmates.

Some families used to stump up fees because sending the children to a Protestant school was important to the older generation but thankfully this has changed. There were also grants to send poorer children to Protestant boarding schools. Grim places by all accounts.

recedite wrote: »

Not so with Catholics, where the ordinary folk go to free schools and the wealthier segregate off into private schools as soon as they can.

This might not go on forever. Some of the free schools got exceptional results in the Leaving Cert this year and on the news some fee paying schools are thinking of changing to non-fee paying because people can't afford to send their children there any more.

recedite wrote: »

Thats why the prods all grow up with the same accent, no matter which side of the tracks they live, or what their background is, and a more equal chance to "make it" in the world. Maybe you are seeing this and mistakenly thinking they have banished all the poor ones to another religion?

Maybe in Dublin Protestants grew up with the same accent, or maybe the Protestants you saw did. I worked with a Protestant girl from a very "working class" area in Dublin, and she had an ordinary Dublin accent like anyone from that area. She married a Catholic.

In the country the "anglo" Protestants speak with a different accent to the poorer Protestants who have the regional accent of the area. The latter speak no differently than their Catholic neighbors who they mix with and marry.

Nobody has been "banished" to another religion. Catholicism is the majority religion in Ireland and thanks to policies such as Ne Temere the Catholic church has absorbed many Protestants.

Emme

hotmail.com wrote: »

Well how wrong they were. The Catholic Church abused and exploited the poor in Ireland.

I don't disagree but the Catholic poor may not have felt as isolated as the Protestant poor because there was more of them.

hotmail.com wrote: »

I don't even agree with your statement by the way. Have you any evidence for this fanciful idea?

The Protestant poor "escaped" through emigration or intermarriage with Catholics. The Protestant church abused and exploited their own poor just as much but were better at hiding it than the Catholic church. So much so that the victims of abuse in a Protestant orphanage, The Bethany Home, are still fighting for redress. If you read any of Derek Leinster's books you will see how poor members of the COI were treated.

http://www.derekleinster.com

The Protestant poor hid their poverty from the larger Catholic community (don't let the side down :rolleyes:) and that is one reason why people aren't willing to believe me. When people think of Protestants they visualise comfortably off urban groups (David McWilliams sometimes refers to them in his articles) or in the countryside, foxhunting anglo-Irish types living in crumbling Georgian houses. Some of these people exist, but there are also pockets of relatively poor Protestant farmers living in the midlands or on isolated hill farms. They are a dying breed, but for a long time they kept their heads down and hid their poverty from the surrounding community. Naturally enough most children of such people got as far away from the community as soon as possible.

recedite wrote: »

I notice that the COI all send their kids to the same school, to get the exact same education, no matter how poor or how rich the parents.

That isn't always the case. I am Protestant and some people from my family got an excellent all round education including GAA in the local community school with Catholic classmates.

Some families used to stump up fees because sending the children to a Protestant school was important to the older generation but thankfully this has changed. There were also grants to send poorer children to Protestant boarding schools. Grim places by all accounts.

recedite wrote: »

Not so with Catholics, where the ordinary folk go to free schools and the wealthier segregate off into private schools as soon as they can.

This might not go on forever. Some of the free schools got exceptional results in the Leaving Cert this year and on the news some fee paying schools are thinking of changing to non-fee paying because people can't afford to send their children there any more.

recedite wrote: »

Thats why the prods all grow up with the same accent, no matter which side of the tracks they live, or what their background is, and a more equal chance to "make it" in the world. Maybe you are seeing this and mistakenly thinking they have banished all the poor ones to another religion?

Maybe in Dublin Protestants grew up with the same accent, or maybe the Protestants you saw did. I worked with a Protestant girl from a very "working class" area in Dublin, and she had an ordinary Dublin accent like anyone from that area. She married a Catholic.

In the country the "anglo" Protestants speak with a different accent to the poorer Protestants who have the regional accent of the area. The latter speak no differently than their Catholic neighbors who they mix with and marry.

Nobody has been "banished" to another religion. Catholicism is the majority religion in Ireland and thanks to policies such as Ne Temere the Catholic church has absorbed many Protestants. As a Protestant I will say that Protestants are harder on their own poor than anyone and that is why many hidden poor Protestants have either given up attending church or let the majority church absorb them.

recedite

Emme wrote: »

Some families used to stump up fees because sending the children to a Protestant school was important to the older generation but thankfully this has changed. There were also grants to send poorer children to Protestant boarding schools. Grim places by all accounts.

I'm just saying that a poor catholic cannot get a grant to attend a private school, whereas a poor protestant can. This is a safety net for protestants which is not available to catholics, in the sense that they can always get a good education, even if the family is destitute. This is only possible because of govt. support for private schools in general. If the protestants choose to be more a part of the local community, and attend a local school (the chances are it will be a RC school) then they will grow up mixing and socialising with catholics, and quite likely end up marrying one.
If I was in charge, I'd phase out all state support for all private schools.

lmaopml

There are Catholics attending fee paying COI schools though - not only Protestants.

I'm not clear on how a poor Catholic wouldn't get a grant and a poor Protestant does, where do they get this grant?

I'm all for the freedom to have an ethos fee paying private school, so long as the DOE curriculum is followed to the dot - I've no problem with parents who pitch in together to improve facilities for the kids if they have the money to do so, or prefer to spend their money on that rather than other things.
I think the teachers salaries should be paid by the State for these schools like any other school in the country. Perhaps the capital grants scheme could be looked at overall for all public and private schools and be made more equitable however - it's a crying shame that students are being taught in prefabs in this country after having a building boom that lasted almost a decade.

recedite

lmaopml wrote: »

I'm not clear on how a poor Catholic wouldn't get a grant and a poor Protestant does, where do they get this grant?

From their church. Maybe the diocese, or the parish, or some special fund, I'm not sure. The point is, they make sure that none of their own get left behind. And any Catholics attending the school help to subsidise that system by paying full fees.

recedite

lmaopml wrote: »

I've no problem with parents who pitch in together to improve facilities for the kids if they have the money to do so, or prefer to spend their money on that rather than other things.

I compare it to voluntary health insurance. Everyone who has the money can choose to join VHI, get better healthcare, maybe skip the queues in hospital. But they still have to pay into the public system as well. They can't just pay the difference between PRSI or whatever and VHI as a top-up, and then expect to get better treatment than the general public.

Benny_Cake

recedite wrote: »

From their church. Maybe the diocese, or the parish, or some special fund, I'm not sure. The point is, they make sure that none of their own get left behind. And any Catholics attending the school help to subsidise that system by paying full fees.

Document about it on the Dundalk Grammar School website here:

http://www.dgs.ie/userfiles/File/Database/Funding%20of%20Protestant%20Schools.doc

My understanding is that a block grant is paid by the State to a committee representing the main Protestant churches, who then distribute it to needy families. Fee-paying Protestant schools were also treated as non fee-paying schools by the State in terms of grants (no longer the case). The reason for this privileged treatment was the dispersed nature of the Protestant community at the time and the fact that many would have had no choice but to send their children to a fee-paying school, often far from home, if they wanted to have them educated in a school which reflected their ethos.

It strikes me as a rather inefficient way to run an education system, but I'm far from being an expert on it.

recedite

I wouldn't say its any more inefficient, but it seems a somewhat bizarre mixture of elitism and socialism.
There is a lot of whingeing in that document that the private protestant schools are getting less state money than free catholic schools. The whingeing is based on the assumption that protestants have "no choice" but to attend private schools.
What they don't mention is the rising number of VEC and Educate Together schools available nowadays in the free education sector. These have a generally neutral ethos, so they should be an acceptable choice to anyone having difficulty in travelling to/paying for private protestant schools. It was different in the past, when the only other choice was to send their kids to a RC school with an ethos that was possibly hostile to their beliefs.

Benny_Cake

recedite wrote: »

I wouldn't say its any more inefficient, but it seems a somewhat bizarre mixture of elitism and socialism.
There is a lot of whingeing in that document that the private protestant schools are getting less state money than free catholic schools. The whingeing is based on the assumption that protestants have "no choice" but to attend private schools.
What they don't mention is the rising number of VEC and Educate Together schools available nowadays in the free education sector. These have a generally neutral ethos, so they should be an acceptable choice to anyone having difficulty in travelling to/paying for private protestant schools. It was different in the past, when the only other choice was to send their kids to a RC school with an ethos that was possibly hostile to their beliefs.

Well that probably depends on the part of the country you're in, in many areas VEC/Educate Together schools are thin on the ground if not non-existent. No idea what the situation in Drogheda is. Ultimately if more schools under alternative patronage open or more Catholic schools are transferred to VEC/Educate Together, the need for this block grant should evaporate.

lmaopml

My understanding is that a block grant is paid by the State to a committee representing the main Protestant churches, who then distribute it to needy families. Fee-paying Protestant schools were also treated as non fee-paying schools by the State in terms of grants (no longer the case). The reason for this privileged treatment was the dispersed nature of the Protestant community at the time and the fact that many would have had no choice but to send their children to a fee-paying school, often far from home, if they wanted to have them educated in a school which reflected their ethos.

It strikes me as a rather inefficient way to run an education system, but I'm far from being an expert on it.

I wonder is the block grant still granted to non fee paying Protestant Schools, I don't think it is..?

As far as I remember it was Bat O'Keaffe that stopped that grant for both fee and non fee paying schools, the non fee paying were lost in the voices, and media coverage - virtually putting those who tried to run their facility as non fee paying into the 'fee paying' sector.

Hence the reason why so many can't sustain their ethos - not anybodies fault in particular, but merely due to the dispersion of those who wished to attend.

I think he was so darn cute though? No? In a changing Ireland he claimed that if a Catholic brought a case that it couldn't be sustained this 'grant' - the Protestants answered that no Catholics ever brought a case in the forty years that they received a grant, which is quite true - because they knew what it felt like not to have access and had a bit of respect and empathy.

O'Keefe knew damn well that with the emergent requirement for ET schools etc. and the simple fact that our open education policy in Ireland that there would in fact be a case sooner or later - he closed that door so darn quick. Athiests will NOT receive a special grant from the Government if they are dispersed.


Pity the ministers didn't build schools during a building boom, and repair run down schools where students were being taught in prefabs, when there was absolutely no need for it - granted the pupil teacher ratio dropped, and SNA's were finally on the scene, (good things lets not forget ) but these things could be withdrawn while people where 'spending' nor 'not' - that was the golden rule of the time. 'Spend' get into 'Debt' and live for the moment. Don't invest in a serious way, just a way that sounds like it's going to stand for the next fifty years.

These protestants however were living and are living 'today' and are not rich, they are simply looking for a school with a Christian ethos - quite similar to schools looking for a 'multidenom' ethos like the ET model.

Change should be slow and a system rolled out that is equitable to all, I truly believe - but that doesn't necessitate telling Protestants to 'just go mix, never mind morning prayer' - That won't work.

I actually felt quite bad for those open schools that were forced into the fee paying sector to survive, and also thought it was rather cute that Atheists could have applied for pretty much the same grant should they wish to travel to school while Ireland adjusts to the population. Nose and face hip hurrahs have happened here - and nobody won.

recedite

I'm open to correction on this, but it appears that protestant schools in the free education sector get the capitation and other grants paid directly to the school. So it benefits all pupils in the school, not just the chosen few "needy protestants" as selected by the block grant board.

There is actually a new free education protestant school being built at the moment near me. This school is not being "built up by protestant families" it is being entirely funded by the State. The quid pro quo is that they will have to allow catholics, muslims, atheists and anybody else living in the local area to take up places in the school, before they can give a place to a protestant from outside the area. This is a new and very different policy to most protestant schools, for example this from East Glendalough school in Wicklow town;

Children of members of staff and children of Protestant clergy within the catchment area receive a special priority if a place is available. Thereafter, priority is given to the first 60 applications for Protestant pupils from within the catchment area Certificates of Registry of Baptism (or, in exceptional cases, a letter from a Minister of religion stating that the child is an regular member of a Protestant congregation) and Birth Certificates should accompany applications. When all places are filled in any one year, applications are put on a waiting list.

When all priority applications have been catered for, other applications are considered, space and resources permitting. Second priority is given to Protestant pupils from outside the catchment area. Third priority is given to members of Protestant House Churches. Fourth priority is given to non-Protestant applications with sibling connections to the school. Fifth priority is given to "mixed marriage" applications where one of the partners is Protestant. Thereafter, all other applications shall be considered on a first-come, first-served basis.

And of course, by the time it gets to fifth priority, there are no places left.

The bottom line is this IMO; any institution that is receiving public funding should not be permitted to be exclusive, ie allowed to exclude certain members of the public.

I assume that the new school being built will have a high proportion of "non protestant" kids attending, given the open admissions policy, and that there is only one other secondary school Greystones, which is quite a large town.
But the ethos will still be be fully C of I, just as if the parents had gone out of their way to seek out a protestant school. So this will be an interesting experiment. Whether by accident or design, the school could be used for proselytizing and evangelizing local "non protestant" kids, despite being fully funded by the State.

lmaopml

recedite wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this, but it appears that protestant schools in the free education sector get the capitation and other grants paid directly to the school. So it benefits all pupils in the school, not just the chosen few "needy protestants" as selected by the block grant board.

The Capitation grant is received by every school in Ireland it's not specific to the schools with a C.O.I. ethos. Or 'Protestant' ethos. The grant that was available for 'needy protestants' is gone - long gone - it's not available for anybody even 'needy 'insert any denomination or atheists''

There is actually a new free education protestant school being built at the moment near me. This school is not being "built up by protestant families" it is being entirely funded by the State.

Meh, that's not the way schools historically were built in Ireland, it was quite literally blood, sweat and tears and donations, but it's the way they are now for 'everybody' lets face it. So moving on..

The quid pro quo is that they will have to allow catholics, muslims, atheists and anybody else living in the local area to take up places in the school, before they can give a place to a protestant from outside the area. This is a new and very different policy to most protestant schools, for example this from East Glendalough school in Wicklow town;

Do you think this is a good thing? No ethos allowed.

The bottom line is this IMO; any institution that is receiving public funding should not be permitted to be exclusive, ie allowed to exclude certain members of the public.

recidite every single school in Ireland gets the teachers paid by the state and the curriculum is governed by the dept of education of every single one, even the private schools have to bow to the curriculum and state examinations - this is a good thing - you can send a fool to a private school and they will still be a fool, you can send a smart person to a public school and they will sit the same exams. The 'state' facilitates education, but it does not facilitate only one ideal - Ireland is finding an equilibrium with this, but it must be equitable and fair to each community. It's not a case of merely, 'my public funding' - everybody pays taxes.

Whether we like it or no, there will be schools in affluent areas that will have parents who will send donations to school facilities, or else they will get their children grinds or perhaps spend their money on sending them abroad to study during the summer, the rich will spend their money how they like, while the poor will see China in their imaginations and books. Who's the better?

I assume that the new school being built will have a high proportion of "non protestant" kids attending, given the open admissions policy, and that there is only one other secondary school Greystones, which is quite a large town.
But the ethos will still be be fully C of I, just as if the parents had gone out of their way to seek out a protestant school. So this will be an interesting experiment. Whether by accident or design, the school could be used for proselytizing and evangelizing local "non protestant" kids, despite being fully funded by the State.

Catholics have sent their kids to C.O.I. schools, bizarre as that may sound - it's not unusual.

One size does not fit all - that's a lesson we need to learn and not be biased about it, but learn from it.

As regards, 'catchment areas' or whether a brother or sister attends the school - lets face it no mother or father wants to collect their children from several different schools in the area. It stands to reason if a brother or sister attends than it makes sense that their sibling has a high priority.

Benny_Cake

recedite wrote: »

I assume that the new school being built will have a high proportion of "non protestant" kids attending, given the open admissions policy, and that there is only one other secondary school Greystones, which is quite a large town.
But the ethos will still be be fully C of I, just as if the parents had gone out of their way to seek out a protestant school. So this will be an interesting experiment. Whether by accident or design, the school could be used for proselytizing and evangelizing local "non protestant" kids, despite being fully funded by the State.

I grew up not all that far from Greystones and it seems to me that there has always been a fairly significant Protestant community in the town? Certainly there seems to be a lot of churches. Proselytism is unlikely to say the least, I knew plenty of Catholic kids growing up who attended COI schools and who were allowed out for First Communion classes and so on. In large parts of the country non-Catholic kids attend Catholic schools. There doesn't appear to be a huge amount of friction there, I'd expect to see a lot of court cases if there was.

lmaopml wrote: »

The Capitation grant is received by every school in Ireland it's not specific to the schools with a C.O.I. ethos. Or 'Protestant' ethos. The grant that was available for 'needy protestants' is gone - long gone - it's not available for anybody even 'needy 'insert any denomination or atheists''.

I could be wrong on this but I think that the block grant remains, what has changed is that the grant from the department to fee-paying Protestant schools has been reduced to the level of that paid to fee-paying Catholic schools. Needless to say this has made it considerably more expensive for parents to send their children to private schools, and a number of those schools, Kilkenny College being one, have entered the free education system in recent years as they can't make ends meet.

Personally, I don't like the concept of state funding being given to private schools. I do understand why allowances were made for Protestant schools back in the 60s though. It would seem to me that the fairest solution is to ensure that there is adequate coverage of Educate Together or VEC schools across the country. Not a solution for those who require a school with a specifically Protestant ethos perhaps, and there will need to be buy-in from parents for change to happen.

recedite

My reading of the document posted above is that in the "private" protestant schools the capitation grant (and any other grants that were previously available) is pooled into a central fund which then becomes "the block grant", which is then used to allow the poorer protestants to attend the same private schools as the wealthier ones. Its a good system from a social cohesion point of view, within the particular church.

If a protestant school moves to the free education sector, it will get a slightly higher grant, but it will be paid directly to the school.

The per capita grant made available to all Catholic Schools was paid “en bloc” to a committee (the Secondary Education Committee) representing the main Protestant Churches, and this was to be dispersed to minority families in need of support, so that fees could be paid. This has been called the “Block Grant” and remains in place.

Greystones area has a high proportion of protestants, maybe the highest of any town in the Republic, and an enviable reputation of good relations between different groups. I don't expect any friction at all.
I'm saying this new school is a new departure in State policy. A minority religion school will be imposing its ethos on the general public. I don't think there is any existing protestant ethos school which is specifically prohibited from prioritising protestant kids in the admissions policy?
Basically, the admissions policy has been secularised, but the ethos has not. Its a tangled web we are weaving recently with the schools in this country.

robp

Amongst younger Catholics who strive to be active I think there is a fair representation of all classes, still a bias to rural areas but by no means only middle class. These are the real free thinkers as for them it is swimming against the tide and certainly not a social club. So I don't think the future rests with middle class.