Sharing Leap Card Fine (Old thread)

ninjabox

Hi,

I gave my partner my leap card cause he had no change, there was credit on it and he tagged on and tagged off. But he was caught using it by an inspector. The inspector said he might have ground for an appeal because the journey was paid for.

Do you think he might have grounds for appeal? Also the inspector ticked the "Fare evasion" box at the back of the fine slip but technically it wasn't fare evasion because the trip was paid for.

I'm going to ring Irish Rail in the morning but just wanted to see what people think here.

coylemj

What do you mean by 'he was caught using it by an inspector'?

Where does it say that you can't lend a Leap card to a friend? There's no name on the card so why was the inspector concerned about who owned the card and why did your friend even admit that it wasn't his card? Did the inspector ask him if it was his card?

This doesn't add up, IR gets paid no matter who uses the card so the inspector has no basis for issuing a fine.

EDIT: Unless you were both travelling at the same time in which case there is a problem. On a bus you can pay with a single Leap card for you and one or more travelling companions, the driver can issue tickets for as many passengers you bring with you (the cardholder doesn't get a ticket) but you can't do that on the Luas or Dart so technically it was a fare evasion.

Losty Dublin

ninjabox wrote: »

Hi,

I gave my partner my leap card cause he had no change, there was credit on it and he tagged on and tagged off. But he was caught using it by an inspector. The inspector said he might have ground for an appeal because the journey was paid for.

Do you think he might have grounds for appeal? Also the inspector ticked the "Fare evasion" box at the back of the fine slip but technically it wasn't fare evasion because the trip was paid for.

I'm going to ring Irish Rail in the morning but just wanted to see what people think here.

Had you got a valid ticket or Leap for your trip?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

foggy_lad

ninjabox wrote: »

Hi,

I gave my partner my leap card cause he had no change, there was credit on it and he tagged on and tagged off. But he was caught using it by an inspector. The inspector said he might have ground for an appeal because the journey was paid for.

Do you think he might have grounds for appeal? Also the inspector ticked the "Fare evasion" box at the back of the fine slip but technically it wasn't fare evasion because the trip was paid for.

I'm going to ring Irish Rail in the morning but just wanted to see what people think here.

Unless Irish Rail are insisting on all Leap card passengers only using their very own leap cards then this is unenforceable! Once the journey was paid for there can be no fare evasion unless you have a personalised leap card which afaik can't be used by anyone else.

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=CG%2fCj953WkPB%2b7fwjkLFshsyP7wecX6fiV0VBn3Q632F20yhboVXGTVmv%2b2bImvcFvyDWv8wk%2bd4E5kAGPCvjpJvBUgOhvVEg%2fB6ZgVyLiI6nLqx13jMpsQIKgDUASmGM793kdSI9FJOtf2oYKBBrP3uRbgVAG0ZGo31awr2Vmg%3d

10.2 Leap Cards which are not personalised and do not contain any Tickets (i.e. Travel Credit only) are transferable for separate journeys but cannot be used by more than one passenger on the same journey.

Losty Dublin

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They didn't say for sure that they weren't traveling, hence my asking same.

Unless it is a personalised or a child card I can't see why a penalty fare was issued in this case; it seems bizarre.

hfallada

If the inspector is telling you appeal it. I guess he was hinting at appealing it. I was "fined" for not having a student ID on me and inspector told me to bring my ID to Dublin Bus HQ and it would be fine. I got a generic letter saying I had a €50 fine in the post a week later. I went to Dublin Bus and the fine was erased.

I think inspectors just have formalities and you just have to appeal it. What is there to lose?

Victor

ninjabox wrote: »

I gave my partner my leap card cause he had no change

What type of Leap Card? Is it personalised?

No Pants

I give the missus my Leap card occasionally. It's not a personalised one, so I don't see the issue. On DB we can both easily travel on it, but not rail services. Can't even buy a second ticket at a TVM, which seems daft. Not sure about the Luas. We did take one short trip together and I did use the Leap for at least one of us, but that was back in February, so I can't recall if I was able to buy a second ticket at the TVM with the Leap or not.

whomitconcerns

regardless of personalised card. Does it say non transferable on the back? Did he say it was not his card?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

whomitconcerns

well then i dont see what their issue was? Maybe I misunderstood, were both of you using the same ticket at the same time, as has already been suggested?

No Pants

We really need more details from the OP here, especially how many people were travelling. If there were two people travelling, then the comment that the trip was already paid for would be false.

cdebru

Student leap cards with the ID can only be used by the person identified on the card anyone else using it is liable to a standard fare. It is in the terms and conditions of those leap cards.

Dravokivich

whomitconcerns wrote: »

regardless of personalised card. Does it say non transferable on the back? Did he say it was not his card?

The only cards that are transferable are those without a picture of the named owner on it.

This will mean any personalised card is not transferable, as you can't give it to anyone but yourself to use.

We need to know more info from op on what happened before we could determine what occurred.

"Appeal" is a standard response from the inspector if you feel a fine is not applicable. It doesn't indicate that the inspector feels the fine should not apply.

brownacid

How do inspectors check see if the leap card has been tagged on? Do they have a tag with them to scan it against?

LXFlyer

Yes.

coylemj

Can I just suggest that there is zero point in continuing this thread without the clarification that we're seeking from the OP?

Losty Dublin

coylemj wrote: »

Spook_ie

10. Transferability

10.1 Personalised Leap Cards and Leap Cards with Tickets on them are not transferable.

10.2 Leap Cards which are not personalised and do not contain any Tickets (i.e. Travel Credit only) are transferable for separate journeys but cannot be used by more than one passenger on the same journey.

10.3 These Terms and Conditions in relation to transferability are subject always to each Transport Operator’s Conditions of Carriage.

10.4 Any attempted use of a personalised Leap Card by a person not entitled to use that card may result in the confiscation of the Leap Card and may result in the Leap Card customer being charged the appropriate standard fare in respect of the improper use (as determined by the relevant Transport Operator) and you may not be entitled to receive a refund of any Travel Credit. If your Leap Card is confiscated please refer to the relevant Transport Operator.

Qprmeath

Exact same story as original poster. Personalised card used by my wife on train. €100 fine plus standard fare plus losing what was on card. Seems excessive seeing as its not fare evasion. Have appealed with no success. Is there anything else I can do? She was travelling on her own.

devnull

It's to do with Taxsaver Fraud, since all taxsavers require a personalised leap card.

IE: Two people using a single taxsaver ticket deprive the company of revenue they should have got by having one each. This very much is fare evasion because of the tax element.

beauf

I don't understand why you would take someone elses card to the train station when you can get a new card at the train station for yourself. You don't need change.

The only reason to take someone else's card to a station is to get through the turnstiles. Is there some other possible scenario?

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

It's to do with Taxsaver Fraud, since all taxsavers require a personalised leap card.

IE: Two people using a single taxsaver ticket deprive the company of revenue they should have got by having one each. This very much is fare evasion because of the tax element.

It would have always been viewed as fare evasion - with a standard monthly/annual ticket, it was always restricted to being used by the person with the appropriate photo ID.

These tickets are not transferable and as such it's fare evasion.

Qprmeath

But no picture its all good and no fine? That's the frustrating bit. I wouldn't have bothered with the picture if Id known.

Tordelback

It has to be the tax saver aspect that's the issue, since it's impossible for two people to tag-on for the same Luas journey, since the second tag-onwill either be refused by the machine as 'too soon', or be counted as tagging off.

cython

Qprmeath wrote: »

Exact same story as original poster. Personalised card used by my wife on train. €100 fine plus standard fare plus losing what was on card. Seems excessive seeing as its not fare evasion. Have appealed with no success. Is there anything else I can do? She was travelling on her own.

devnull wrote: »

It's to do with Taxsaver Fraud, since all taxsavers require a personalised leap card.

IE: Two people using a single taxsaver ticket deprive the company of revenue they should have got by having one each. This very much is fare evasion because of the tax element.

lxflyer wrote: »

It would have always been viewed as fare evasion - with a standard monthly/annual ticket, it was always restricted to being used by the person with the appropriate photo ID.

These tickets are not transferable and as such it's fare evasion.

Lads, let's step back and actually observe that there is a massive hole in the information provided. Just because the leap card is personalised does not mean that there is actually a valid train ticket loaded onto it, and that this was what the poster's wife used. It is also possible that his wife was using travel credit from the e-purse, in which case while the fine may still be technically correct, it is heavy handed and the accusations of fare evasion here are jumping the gun. I myself have a personalised leap card from having had a taxsaver ticket, but I did't renew at the start of this year so I don't currently have any tickets on it. Technically only I can use this, but at this point it is a theft prevention measure rather than any issue of fare evasion.

Qprmeath wrote: »

But no picture its all good and no fine? That's the frustrating bit. I wouldn't have bothered with the picture if Id known.

As noted, Taxsaver tickets require a personalised card, so if you have or had one on it, that was never an option. Perhaps you could clarify the above RE whether a taxsaver ticket was used, or travel credit though?

LXFlyer

cython wrote: »

As noted, Taxsaver tickets require a personalised card, so if you have or had one on it, that was never an option. Perhaps you could clarify the above RE whether a taxsaver ticket was used, or travel credit though?

Seeing as you are being technical, I'd point out that there is no such thing as a "taxsaver ticket".

There are monthly and annual tickets.

You can buy them at full price or through the taxsaver scheme if your employer allows it.

Anyway, the terms and conditions of LEAP Card state:

10. Transferability
10.1 Personalised Leap Cards and Leap Cards with Tickets on them are not transferable.

Qprmeath

Its a personalised leap card with auto top up on it. Not involved in taxsaver or never loaded a monthly or annual ticket on to it. Travel to Dublin occasionally on it but not used for work travel.

LXFlyer

Qprmeath wrote: »

Its a personalised leap card with auto top up on it. Not involved in taxsaver or never loaded a monthly or annual ticket on to it. Travel to Dublin occasionally on it but not used for work travel.

Unfortunately they are not transferable as per the condition outlined above.

machiavellianme

Why would you get it personalised? Surely that's extra hassle, does it have any benefits?

Qprmeath

lxflyer wrote: »

Unfortunately they are not transferable as per the condition outlined above.

Ah I know you're right. Still cant accept its fare evasion though

beauf

Qprmeath wrote: »

Ah I know you're right. Still cant accept its fare evasion though

They would argue it's an invalid ticket. Same as if you had a annual ticket and didn't tag on.

beauf

The only scenario that makes any sense is if you are going for the train. Can't find your leap card. Take someone else's personalised on that has no tickets loaded on it. Use that to pay the fair. If you had no cash to buy a ticket, and no plastic to buy a new leap card in the machine.

But in doing this you know it's not a valid ticket. Regardless.

Losty Dublin

machiavellianme wrote: »

Why would you get it personalised? Surely that's extra hassle, does it have any benefits?

Annual tickets issued via Tax Saver are personalised Leap Cards. You may retain your card and use it as a regular Leap having not renewed your annual pass.

beauf

You might also have a taxsaver say rail. But also have have credit on it for using bus or Luas occasionally.

GM228

Qprmeath wrote: »

Ah I know you're right. Still cant accept its fare evasion though

From Wikapedia fare evasion is defined as (Wikapedia surprisingly has it bang on!):-

"Fare evasion, or ticket evasion as distinct from fare avoidance or ticket avoidance, is the act of travelling on public transport in disregard of the law and/or regulation, having deliberately not purchased the required ticket to travel (having had the chance to do so)."

The card may have credit, but by being not transferable it is therefore not a valid ticket and a deliberate act of fare evasion.

GM228

Carawaystick

GM228 wrote: »

From Wikapedia fare evasion is defined as (Wikapedia surprisingly has it bang on!):-

"Fare evasion, or ticket evasion as distinct from fare avoidance or ticket avoidance, is the act of travelling on public transport in disregard of the law and/or regulation, having deliberately not purchased the required ticket to travel (having had the chance to do so)."

The card may have credit, but by being not transferable it is therefore not a valid ticket and a deliberate act of fare evasion.

GM228

You can't purchase a ticket with leap cards, except on busses

Losty Dublin

Carawaystick wrote: »

You can't purchase a ticket with leap cards, except on busses

Once you have successfully tagged on then your leap card is your valid ticket.

foggy_lad

Once a leap card has a picture on it then it is personalised and can only be used by the person whose name/picture is on it. This has been the case since the roll out of leap cards and is detailed in the terms and conditions.

If you use a personalised leap card that does not belong to you then you will get caught and fined. There is no defence.

markpb

I'd love to see anyone (transport operators included) justify that fine. It is someone else's card and the rules say the card is non-transferable but the trip was fully paid for so was no fare evasion. What's the point in having or enforcing that rule?

GM228

markpb wrote: »

I'd love to see anyone (transport operators included) justify that fine. It is someone else's card and the rules say the card is non-transferable but the trip was fully paid for so was no fare evasion. What's the point in having or enforcing that rule?

I can certainly see justification in issuing the fine, but bear in mind you need to look at justification of (a) issuing the fine and (b) upholding the fine.

(a) The payment for the journey is not the issue, it's the issue of someone elses card being used, the journey may be paid for-BUT has it been paid for legally? An inspector would have no way of knowing if the card was lost or stolen or allowed to be used with someone's permission-in the first two cases it's fraud and deserves a fine at the very least. The third scenario is the awkward one as below.

(b) This is the problem, if a fine is upheld even after someone proved a card was loaned to them and the best intention was to pay then the companies will use the terms and conditions etc as their justification because it's a violation of the T&Cs.

GM228

suicide_circus

It may be against t&cs to use someone else's personalised leap card (why?) but is it an "offense" that a judge will stand over?

Qprmeath

The offence is listed as "avoiding payment of fare" on the fine. Surely this could be challenged?

GM228

suicide_circus wrote: »

It may be against t&cs to use someone else's personalised leap card (why?) but is it an "offense" that a judge will stand over?

Probably depends on the judge, the accused and how they acted at the time/in court-attitude also plays a big part when it comes to a judges decision.

GM228

savagethegoat

I suppose the situation is the cardholder had a valid ticket (even if they weren't there) but the person using someone else's card didn't have a ticket. in other words tagging on with someone else's card gives them the right to travel but not you as it's not your card.

beauf

I was wondering about someone with an annual ticket not tagging on. As that would be invalid also.

markpb

I don't see how this is relevant. If my card is lost or stolen, I'll report it and it will be blacklisted by the ticket machines. There's a process in place for dealing with this scenario, why would anyone feel the need to involve ticket inspectors?

Beyond that, all anyone can come up with is that it's against the rules because it's against the rules. Rules should be there for a reason, not because someone dreamed them up.

LXFlyer

Frankly I would imagine the rule is there quite simply because it would become incredibly difficult to administrate in terms of both checking tickets (having to start questioning customers), and explaining the rule to customers if you had one rule for personalised LEAP cards with a monthly/annual ticket loaded onto them and another for those that don't.

There needs to be a relatively straightforward rule so that everyone can understand it, and frankly having a rule that personalised LEAP cards can only be used by the person named and pictured on the card is as straightforward as it can get.

GM228

markpb wrote: »

I don't see how this is relevant. If my card is lost or stolen, I'll report it and it will be blacklisted by the ticket machines. There's a process in place for dealing with this scenario, why would anyone feel the need to involve ticket inspectors?

Beyond that, all anyone can come up with is that it's against the rules because it's against the rules. Rules should be there for a reason, not because someone dreamed them up.

It's very relevant and something which can happen, you can't assume a lost/stolen card is blacklisted.

I could loose my Leep Friday afternoon, not being back to work untill tomorrow I may not notice it until then, with the bank holiday that's 3 days it may have been used by someone else!

Other people could be on holidays etc, potentially weeks could pass by before a card is reported.

GM228

markpb

Before the leap card was introduced, that problem existed. Cash was transferable, (discounted) tickets were not. Why is cash suddenly not transferable? Did people get more stupid when leap card was launched?





If I lose my card and someone uses my credit, that's my problem. Ditto for me dropping a tenner on the footpath. Why do transport operators need new rules to protect me?

I wonder if the OP had their card confiscated?