Combativity Award and A4 racing

dermabrasion

I did the Tour of Omagh last weekend. It was really racing as I thought it should be, exhilarating and very tough.
One of the reasons this happend was because they had a combativity prize for the 3 stages (which was a kick ass wheel-set). I think this prize / criteria had a big effect on the racing. While the finish of the 1st two stages was a gallop for the line, we had actually raced hard prior to the sprint with solid breaks and rapid changes in pace up until the last few k's. This is different from the typical A4 negative racing which can reward wheel-sucking, and punishes solo efforts.
Could this be factored into other A4 races? For example, could CI discretionary points be awarded by the race commisaires to riders that give it a serious go during the race?
Like to know if this is feasible. There are many strong riders in A4 that don't get rewarded for solid effort.

C3PO

After doing a few of the early A4 races this year I think that there should have been a "Combativity Award" for just racing in them!!

Chips Lovell

I'd hate to see this. It's cycling, not gymnastics. Points should for for results, not displays.

Raam

I see no issue with awarding some prize, but defo not points.

ROK ON

In keeping with the sports tradition, what about having primes for lower level races. Not cash, but a very small amount of points.

I was thinking of raising this very point with my club league reps as a way to maybe add a bit of spice to the racing and encourage alearly breakaways.

petethedrummer

dermabrasion wrote: »

don't get rewarded for solid effort.

This isn't Triathlon. The beauty of cycling is that sometimes the lazy and the devious win.

If you are going to reward futile effort you might as well have a best-dressed prize.

Kav0777

petethedrummer wrote: »

The beauty of cycling is that sometimes the lazy and the devious win.

Do I spot your racing style here?

petethedrummer

Kav0777 wrote: »

Do I spot your racing style here?

Apart from the winning bit.

BTH

dermabrasion wrote: »

.... they had a combativity prize for the 3 stages (which was a kick ass wheel-set)......

http://www.stickybottle.com/races-results/darnell-moore-seizes-overall-win-at-tour-of-omagh-brendan-mccullagh-takes-final-stage/

Two guys finished tied for points in the combativity classification. Do they get a wheel each??

RJM85

Some sort of combativity prize isn't a bad idea. But points towards an upgrade isn't a good idea either. It's bike racing, there's beauty in the tactics. But you can't be upgrading lads cause they blow themselves up every week (and I'm more guilty than most of that!)

dermabrasion

Agreed, senseless stuff off the front should not be rewarded. The opposite is also true; cynically sitting on wheels until the end with a 90% probability that any break is not going to get anywhere is BS too. But, this is a circular argument, probably done-to-death in the vaults of Boards.
W

PeadarCo

Did the Mountnugent GP last year which had primes. It was 10 laps of a 4.5km circut with a prime near the end of each lap bar the last obviously. It was a handicap race. Overall the prime made for more aggressive racing especially as it gave people at A4 a chance to win something before the rest caught up which they did half way through. The prime meant attacks from the get go.

While they were a good thing it depends on having the right balance for the route and clubs having enough money to fund prizes. I agree that points while although the cheapest option should be kept to the final placings.

buffalo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'd hate to see this. It's cycling, not gymnastics. Points should for for results, not displays.

The aul' red numbers in the Tour must drive you nuts!

fixie fox

dermabrasion wrote: »

I did the Tour of Omagh last weekend. It was really racing as I thought it should be, exhilarating and very tough.
One of the reasons this happend was because they had a combativity prize for the 3 stages (which was a kick ass wheel-set). I think this prize / criteria had a big effect on the racing. While the finish of the 1st two stages was a gallop for the line, we had actually raced hard prior to the sprint with solid breaks and rapid changes in pace up until the last few k's. This is different from the typical A4 negative racing which can reward wheel-sucking, and punishes solo efforts.
Could this be factored into other A4 races? For example, could CI discretionary points be awarded by the race commisaires to riders that give it a serious go during the race?
Like to know if this is feasible. There are many strong riders in A4 that don't get rewarded for solid effort.

race commisaires don't do judging, and I very much doubt that they would want that added to an already very responsible job.

lennymc

there are different types of riders. climbers, people who can attack and stay out front for a while, sprinters etc. Each one needs to ride to their strengths. It annoys me when people pass judgement on the various types of riders - sprinters who do no work and sit in, people who attack and dont see it through etc. each type of rider has the same right to be there as everyone else, and has to ride to their strengths to achieve their goals. If you think a race is going to end in a bunch sprint, why not do something about it and organise a proper attack with a group of riders, string the thing out, put people in difficulty. if you are a climber why not go up a hill flat out and split the bunch to pieces? If someone stays with that and gets up in a sprint, at least they have earned it. ive seen and tried aggressive riding in a4 races, attacking, trying to get to breaks etc. Ive tried with other riders to organise the front of a bunch and try to hurt the rest of the riders, tried to split it in crosswinds etc. Ive seen people (including me) sit in in some races and sprint (slo-rida will tell you about roscommon - my tactic was to do absolutely nothing but sprint at the end - it got me an upgrade). Ive seen a lot of the guys I did this with get their results and get upgraded to a3. IMHO, ultimately its up to the riders to take responsibility for and control the race. If you think its a negative race, make it not a negative race. Organise an attack. Attack yourself. Arrange with other riders to ramp the pace up. If people survive an aggressive race, be they climbers, or sprinters, or whatever, and get a result, they thoroughly deserve it imho. Read up on tactics and use your strengths to exploit the weakness of your opponents!!

Pawlie

lennymc wrote: »

there are different types of riders. climbers, people who can attack and stay out front for a while, sprinters etc. Each one needs to ride to their strengths. It annoys me when people pass judgement on the various types of riders - sprinters who do no work and sit in, people who attack and dont see it through etc. each type of rider has the same right to be there as everyone else, and has to ride to their strengths to achieve their goals. If you think a race is going to end in a bunch sprint, why not do something about it and organise a proper attack with a group of riders, string the thing out, put people in difficulty. if you are a climber why not go up a hill flat out and split the bunch to pieces? If someone stays with that and gets up in a sprint, at least they have earned it. ive seen and tried aggressive riding in a4 races, attacking, trying to get to breaks etc. Ive tried with other riders to organise the front of a bunch and try to hurt the rest of the riders, tried to split it in crosswinds etc. Ive seen people (including me) sit in in some races and sprint (slo-rida will tell you about roscommon - my tactic was to do absolutely nothing but sprint at the end - it got me an upgrade). Ive seen a lot of the guys I did this with get their results and get upgraded to a3. IMHO, ultimately its up to the riders to take responsibility for and control the race. If you think its a negative race, make it not a negative race. Organise an attack. Attack yourself. Arrange with other riders to ramp the pace up. If people survive an aggressive race, be they climbers, or sprinters, or whatever, and get a result, they thoroughly deserve it imho. Read up on tactics and use your strengths to exploit the weakness of your opponents!!

couldnt agree more lenny dude

dedocdude

up to the promoter I guess if they want to do it,don't need CI permission - even the fella driving the comm could judge who gets it - but you know what i would love to see at racing in Ireland, some of these prizes that you get at regional French races, like a big block of cheese - you would never forget that prize long after the 20 quid for 8th place in the combined race is spent on coffee and a roll in the Statoil on the way home. Could you imagine bringing home your body weight in spuds for a win?

ROK ON

^
iirc the Munster Hill climb championships a few years ago was organised by Timmy Barry and the first prize was your weigh in Heineken.

petethedrummer

What do the A4 Cancellara's think happens in the higher grades when an attack forms? The bunch just let them go?

If you can't get up by accumulating points just upgrade yourself and roll around in A3 obscurity if it makes you feel better.

Pawlie

petethedrummer wrote: »

What do the A4 Cancellara's think happens in the higher grades when an attack forms? The bunch just let them go?

If you can't get up by accumulating points just upgrade yourself and roll around in A3 obscurity if it makes you feel better.

Im sure they would be looking for combativity points in A3 too if they where not winning or getting placed :eek:

fixie fox

lennymc wrote: »

there are different types of riders. climbers, people who can attack and stay out front for a while, sprinters etc. Each one needs to ride to their strengths. It annoys me when people pass judgement on the various types of riders - sprinters who do no work and sit in, people who attack and dont see it through etc. each type of rider has the same right to be there as everyone else, and has to ride to their strengths to achieve their goals. If you think a race is going to end in a bunch sprint, why not do something about it and organise a proper attack with a group of riders, string the thing out, put people in difficulty. if you are a climber why not go up a hill flat out and split the bunch to pieces? If someone stays with that and gets up in a sprint, at least they have earned it. ive seen and tried aggressive riding in a4 races, attacking, trying to get to breaks etc. Ive tried with other riders to organise the front of a bunch and try to hurt the rest of the riders, tried to split it in crosswinds etc. Ive seen people (including me) sit in in some races and sprint (slo-rida will tell you about roscommon - my tactic was to do absolutely nothing but sprint at the end - it got me an upgrade). Ive seen a lot of the guys I did this with get their results and get upgraded to a3. IMHO, ultimately its up to the riders to take responsibility for and control the race. If you think its a negative race, make it not a negative race. Organise an attack. Attack yourself. Arrange with other riders to ramp the pace up. If people survive an aggressive race, be they climbers, or sprinters, or whatever, and get a result, they thoroughly deserve it imho. Read up on tactics and use your strengths to exploit the weakness of your opponents!!

I have to agree. What makes me laugh is guys who say A4 "isn't hard enough". That's because they want someone else to make it hard.
But I do think the A4 would be better if the newish strong guys learned to jump across the attempted breaks rather than drag the whole bunch across. It happens a lot.

smurphy29

Interesting thread.

I wsn't there, but it does occur to me that the racing may have been more aggressive because it was a stage race and people who were down time in the GC from the time trial had to be less risk averse and were strongly incentivised to put an attack together to claw back some time.

Or was it the thoughts of a sparkling new wheelset?

petethedrummer

I think the guys with bigger engines should do as the sprinters do and learn to coast around doing nothing. I see far too many of the stronger lads closing down gaps by themselves during the surges instead of tucking in. Almost the entire time in the Dunboyne race, two fit lads from a particular club closed down gaps for me. I just sat in and let them do it. Those 2 lads would have been better saving themselves and launching a big attack from a long way out but they seemed happy to pointlessly burn their matches. Thanks lads!

There is often a point on the last lap where things go dead and a single rider could launch away on his own. The guy who won down in Bunclody went with half a lap to go and noone bothered to chase him. The bunch was at walking pace when he went. Everyone probably thought it was better to stay fresh to fight for second place points rather than blowup chasing him down. Whereas a group of 4 or 5 that goes on lap 1 is going to get chased down because there will be frig all points left if they are allowed go.

If I had a big engine and no sprint I would launch a suicidal attack on the last lap of all the flatter races.

Peterx

petethedrummer wrote: »

I think the guys with bigger engines should do as the sprinters do and learn to coast around doing nothing. I see far too many of the stronger lads closing down gaps by themselves during the surges instead of tucking in. Almost the entire time in the Dunboyne race, two fit lads from a particular club closed down gaps for me. I just sat in and let them do it. Those 2 lads would have been better saving themselves and launching a big attack from a long way out but they seemed happy to pointlessly burn their matches. Thanks lads!

Maybe the two lads were happy out though.

I was very happily doing that very pointless flaming of matches last year until John Doris of EPIC MTB kindly told me to cop myself on and jump to the break instead of spending the same amount of energy at the front of the bunch. Being in the break is much more fun.

There is nothing better then a injured/off season triathlete/runner/rower for pointless chasing of everything that moves.
Nearly everyone is happy, the off season/injured lad gets their workout, the sprinters get towed to the finish and the poor break just get caught although they may be happy too, at least they tried.

On topic - no to combativity awards and yes to getting cute enough to get the upgrade.

petethedrummer

Peterx wrote: »

Maybe the two lads were happy out though.

They were happy, I was happy, everyone was happy!

I hope to renew the arrangement in future races.:pac:

petethedrummer

Peterx wrote: »

There is nothing better then a injured/off season triathlete/runner/rower for pointless chasing of everything that moves.
Nearly everyone is happy, the off season/injured lad gets their workout, the sprinters get towed to the finish

So some fit non-sprinters* attempt to get away and another non-sprinter* comes and drags everyone up to them. Sure you might as well give the sprinters ropes and pull them round.

(*i've made a few assumptions)

dermabrasion

. Almost the entire time in the Dunboyne race, two fit lads from a particular club closed down gaps for me. I just sat in and let them do it. Those 2 lads would have been better saving themselves and launching a big attack from a long way out but they seemed happy to pointlessly burn their matches. Thanks lads!

If this was the A4 in Dunboyne, one of those lads might've been me. We went to that race as a prep for Omagh with the full intention of riding as hard as we could for as long as we could, so not surprised that we we're swarmed 200m out. But, in the last 2K or so, a few riders appeared from the pack (i.e. not seen all day until the end) and tried to push in for 3rd or 4th wheel. Now, that's racing, thats how it goes. My reaction was 'go F*** yourself". That is also how it goes. Dunboyne is a flat enough track that you can take the risk to save it for the sprint, content that there are lads pulling you around. The Omagh set up of having KOH and sprints dotted long a lumpy enough route, sparked attacks. You could not take the risk that one of these would stick, so you jumped across, or you chased it down. Team tactics mattered.
So back to the OP: This is not a whine about trying really hard and getting no points... boo-hooo. It asks can we think of a way that kick-starts what we we in other cats.

petethedrummer

dermabrasion wrote: »

If this was the A4 in Dunboyne, one of those lads might've been me.

Nah I doubt it, I was to the rear nursing my hamstring round. Sounds like you were towards the front. I was referring to guys closing down gaps all through the bunch. Happens at the front and the back.

The last lap in Dunboyne wasn't particularly fast. I thought the bunch might blast it up the last little drag. But no, I was still able to hang on with my cramping hamstring. I assumed someone would have strung it out in an attempt to go long. Maybe things looked different at the front. It was slow at the back.

petethedrummer

Am I getting this right Derma, you sat at the front of Dunboyne pacing everyone roound and closing gaps making it "boring" race, in preparation for a race filled with fake(probably not the right word) incentives to race?

buffalo

petethedrummer wrote: »

Am I getting this right Derma you sat at the front of Dunboyne pacing everyone around making it "boring" race, in preparation for a race filled with fake(probably not the right word) incentives?

He made it hard for people to get away, therefore increasing the difficulty of being in a break and making it more interesting.

petethedrummer

buffalo wrote: »

He made it hard for people to get away, therefore increasing the difficulty of being in a break and making it more interesting.

I think these fit lads are too busy chasing each other down to notice they are helping the sprinters round. Sure let them at it.

I also imagine that any intermediate primes in a race will be won by sprinters who will just drift back into the peloton anyway.

And a combativity award sounds like employee of the month.

maloner

petethedrummer wrote: »

Am I getting this right Derma, you sat at the front of Dunboyne pacing everyone roound and closing gaps making it "boring" race, in preparation for a race filled with fake(probably not the right word) incentives?

I'm Dermabrasions clubmate and was also on the front in Dunboyne (it sounds like some sort of crime has been committed...).

The omagh stage race was more of a focus for me than Dunboyne so I used Dunboyne to try out different things. Omagh was a target as it was a 3 day stage race with tough courses and we went to try and get a man in the top 10.

As it happens, most of the last lap was led around by a different guy, with me going to the front for the last few km.

We're drifting somewhat off the point though. I think the original discussion was around what could be done to spice up A4 races. I found the races in Omagh over the weekend much more enjoyable with a lot more breaks and things going on than in other races I've done. Certainly the sprint and climbing competitions added to that as did the combativity prize. None of those competitions had cycling Ireland points, but a jersey and as far as I know, cash.

There was much better team riding up there as well which probably helped make the racing.

petethedrummer

maloner wrote: »

I'm Dermabrasions clubmate and was also on the front in Dunboyne (it sounds like some sort of crime has been committed...).

No crime. You just seem to miss the point. Derma is complaining about boring racing. Yet contributed to making a race boring.

maloner wrote: »

There was much better team riding up there as well which probably helped make the racing.

Team tactics would certainly make things interesting but noone ever seems to have any. Maybe to spice things up in Dunboyne one of you could have gone off the front and the other spoiled the chase? Then swapped over when he dragged back. You'd have got some great training and livened up the race.

If you are bored by a race do something to liven it up instead looking for others to provide entertainment.

As a rubbish rider, I am never bored as just being able to keep up is entertainment enough.

dermabrasion

Race-craft is a black art which rewards duplicity, deception and ruthlessness

dermabrasion

....and it's addictive

cooky monster

funny this discussion has come about now, and those involved in it are referencing the Seamus Kennedy memorial a4 race in Dunboyne. I did that race, and I was one of the main drivers of the A4 group, and as a result ran out of steam for the sprint. I actually have the footage of that finish, and I can confidently say the guys who placed in that race were very good at the black art of racing, as I didn't recognise them from the front of the group throughout the race.

My point is I've been racing all season at A4 and by my nature am an aggressive rider, which I feel is a significant disadvantage at A4, as the guys who generally take the points are those who conserve their energy for the grand finale!!
This is something I will attempt to do in future races, and I believe wasting my energy in previous races was all part of my racing education. It took the Dunboyne race for me to finally realise it.
Racing is racing, and whatever it takes to get results is just part of the tactics of the game.

Inquitus

This season is my first racing A4 and I have to agree with the above, almost every race ends up in a bunch sprint and there is absolutely no point doing a tap of work until you need to try and get in position for said sprint. I have learnt the hard way by wasting energy on chasing, being in breaks etc. and on Sunday at the SERC race I will be looking to suck wheels all the way round and try and nab some points.

The Swords and Drogheda wheelers chase handicap leagues have been a far more rewarding experience, both in terms of the racing and the likely improvement in form.

lennymc

almost every a4 race ends up in a sprint, but some breaks do stay away. be aggressive and you will get out of it. If you dont get it this time, you will get it next time. A3 from what I can see is attack attack attack. if you have practised being aggressive in a4, you will find it easier in a3.

Arthurdaly

Early season the A4 races were far from bunch sprints. Cycleways Cup about 30ish made it to the finish from a massive field, Newbridge GP about 12-14 made it to the finish in a group, Des Hanlon about 12 made in to the finish, Loais race another small group, Stamullen around 12 made it to the finish.

If you want hard exciting racing then target these races.

There were flat races in between which ended in bunch sprints which most people knew they would when on the start line. If you want points then don't go out the front of the race and murder yourself for the day, If you want to go out on the front and have no legs for the sprint then don't go complaining about some guy you'd not seen all day take the sprint.

Pawlie

No matter what cat you in you need to be tactically aware of your fellow riders,before I raced this year,my team mates said most races would end in a gallop and they where right,this is when you have to use your head,many a time I tried to get away along with others but usually you get hunted down and this is racing,so I used my crown and stayed outha trouble upfront setting steady pace with other guys knowing I was strong enough if lucky enough to get safe passage in last couple km for the sprint and just pick up the points for upgrade and it happened,5 races in a4 and I got upgraded,

No point been a hero driving the bunch around at your pace and getting nothing for it,racing is enjoyable and I love it but its even more enjoyable when you get results and been sly about it too,this happens in all groups.

Pawlie

lennymc wrote: »

A3 from what I can see is attack attack attack. .

Attack Attack Attack heart rate going ping ping ping,tad breather and boom its of again usually until the elastic snaps and this goes on for a while at times especially in Munster races,

DirkVoodoo

"Dammit you people! This is golf, not a rock concert!"

Pawlie

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

"Dammit you people! This is golf, not a rock concert!"

ha ha ha ha

michael196

we miss u pawlie ;

from the wexford two day crew

lennymc

michael196 wrote: »

we miss u pawlie ;

i dont.

petethedrummer

cooky monster wrote: »

I believe wasting my energy in previous races was all part of my racing education. It took the Dunboyne race for me to finally realise it.

I learned in my first race. The bunch blasted it into the wind and a big gap formed. I attempted to close it, inching closer and closer. I bust myself till I blew. Then 10 riders whizzed by me and closed the last few meters.

"Thanks, chump" I believe they said as they whizzed by. Lesson learned.

chester3455

I have never raced a4 and correct me if im wrong but it seems to me that most of the a4 riders took up cycling in say their 20s or 30s joined clubs and started racing and were never though how to race unlike the underage riders today who could start with a bunch of 20 and finish with 4 or 5 because they attack and attack and attack.the youngsters arent afraid to shout at each other and let people know if they are not pulling there weigh in the group unlike the a4s who suck the wheels.a combativity award is not practical for judging .the a4 sshould just make the races more aggresive themselves after all it is their race and they must make it.so attack attack ATTACK!!!!

Pawlie

michael196 wrote: »

we miss u pawlie ;

from the wexford two day crew

Like a disease Micheal

Pawlie

lennymc wrote: »

i dont.

:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

smurphy29

chester3455 wrote: »

I have never raced a4 and correct me if im wrong but it seems to me that most of the a4 riders took up cycling in say their 20s or 30s joined clubs and started racing and were never though how to race unlike the underage riders today who could start with a bunch of 20 and finish with 4 or 5 because they attack and attack and attack.the youngsters arent afraid to shout at each other and let people know if they are not pulling there weigh in the group unlike the a4s who suck the wheels.a combativity award is not practical for judging .the a4 sshould just make the races more aggresive themselves after all it is their race and they must make it.so attack attack ATTACK!!!!

I think this is to a large extent true. Most of the field I expect got into cycling and found they were strong in sportive fields and decided to take it up a level and, like you say, haven't really been trained in how to race, and are figuring it out as they go.

By all accounts it is the juniors who make A3 go with a bang, and I was reading on boards somewhere recently that in their absence in recent races, the racing was a lot more negative.

There's a game-theoretic element to bike racing and in particular formation of breakaways. If the field thinks it will come down to a bunch sprint then it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

foxer3640

I don't know about the idea of an award for trying (that's basically what it is) If lads want to attack in a4 fair play to them if their fit enough but a lot of these attacks seem doomed. A4s seem to chase down everything. I've done 2 open races this season and the tour of Omagh last weekend. Managed to get up to A3 after results in the first open race and a result in the tour. Both sprint finishes. Lots of attacking in both races but the aggressive guys were all cooked by the end. At the end of the day you have to work to your strengths and if that means sitting in and waiting for the sprint well so be it. At the end of the day the lighter fitter lads should be using THEIR strengths and trying to drop the sprinters on the climbs. My 2 cents for what its worth.