What a family needs to earn to be middle class?

Voltex

Some friends and I were discussing what income levels best describe class levels in Ireland.

One friend has a stay at home wife, three young kids and a €1500/pm mortgage. He earns about €65K (Gross), in a very secure job and struggles on that, but considers himself working class. Another friend earns about €75k, single, renting in Monkstown and considers himself middle class.

Both salaries are pretty close to each other yet one thinks of himself as in a different class.

Is €65K enough for a family of 5 to live on?..Is the class structure just a perception based on what your experience of life is?

foxy06

No cos im irish not English. Our class system is D4 and everyone else

kneemos

If you think you're middle class you're middle class.

OU812

foxy06 wrote: »

No cos im irish not English. Our class system is D4 and everyone else

D4,Culchies & everyone else.

The monks town guy has more excess income (considerably more as he's not supporting four other people), so sees himself as higher class rightly or wrongly.

Akrasia

you can't buy class.

The conceptions about class are all a bit warped anyway. The more adamantly you claim to be working class, the more likely you are to be long term unemployed.

I am the only income in a family of 5, I earn 25k a year before tax and I don't consider myself 'working class'.

I think in the 21st century we need to get beyond the idea of classes and realise that we are all citizens and we should all have equal opportunities and responsibilities. This means the law should apply equally to all with no exemptions for the very rich and the 'disadvantaged' but also, everyone should have equal access to education, healthcare and social services.

This requires redistribution of income by the way.

Capitalist economies are designed to allocate resources based on supply and demand, but even if that mechanism is a good mechanism for deciding the price of resources, it doesn't mean that it is a good way for allocating distribution of income in a society.

There is enough research out there that shows that unequal distribution of income in an economy has negative impacts on the quality of life for those living there. There is more crime, more social stratification, more begging, more suffering.

carpejugulum

It's not only about income. There are scumbags earning millions.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

The only class worth belonging to is this one:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1166
:cool:

kneemos

Old and grey wrote: »

The only class worth belonging to is this one:
http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1166
:cool:

I'm not worthy.

Ciarabear

Middle Class is a mindset and nothing to do with monetary wealth.

During the boom, lots of working class builders got rich quick and drove Mercs, holidayed in Marbella and wore Hugo Boss suits but it didn't make them Middle Class

super_furry

More than those show-off pricks next door.

Middle class dahling, it loike a state of mind.

jimgoose

My good man, if you have to ask, you're not in it. :cool:

martinedwards

there are middle class folks who are penniless.

it's mindset, not money.

omahaid

martinedwards wrote: »

it's mindset, not money.

Space Ghost agrees

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BIEn3_NzM

Pherekydes

You're not middle-class; you're lumpen proletariat!

The Narrator

I think when someone worries about what class they are like that, they really need to take another look at their life.

I know my place.

smcgiff

Akrasia wrote: »

This requires redistribution of income by the way.

And thankfully we live in a socialist country.

What we don't want is a communist country where everyone (theoretically) is equal. And therefore effort is not rewarded.

MRnotlob606

we dont need to know what class we are,class is just ignorance and and and excuse for division , as long as we have a steady income thats all that matters

Stojkovic

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know my place.

http://youtu.be/K2k1iRD2f-c

Cee-Jay-Cee

Social classes don't really exist in the way they used to, anymore. Many families on welfare now have a greater disposable income than those working and supporting families and paying large mortgages. They get exemptions from more or less every social charge/tax, they pay nominal rent, no doctors or school fees, they don't have the burden of fueling and running cars the same way working people do. They're as well off as many middle class families.

dotsman

How much you earn does not determine your class. However, often, your class will determine how much you earn.

Does winning the lotto mean that a person immediately goes from working class to upper class? Look at the behaviour of many footballers and BS celebrities who suddenly find themselves loaded. Do you regard these people as classy?

Class is a set of attitudes/ambitions and standards as to one's place in society. There is no strictly defined class structure in Ireland, but, in general there are:

1. Welfare Class
2. Working Class
3. Lower Middle Class
4. Middle Class
5. Upper Middle Class
6. Upper Class

People typically don't move through the class structures in their lifetime, as how they are raised pretty much defines them. It's from generation to generation that changes in class may occur (ie two X class parents raising a child to Y class standards, in a Y class neighbourhood, with Y class friends, will often result in the child adopting Y class principles as an adult).

This is a quick table to show the differences between the classes. This is very high level and I'm sure there are lots of exceptions and things overlooked. Likewise, it may be common for a person to identify with different classes for the different categories.

Class Type:|Welfare|Working|Lower Middle|Middle|Upper Middle|Upper

Typical Education:|Low grade in the Leaving Cert|Leaving Cert. Many may have Fas/PLC Courses etc|Diplomas would be common, some degrees| You have to have a degree!|It's not that you have a degree, it's where the degree is from and what it is in|Highly mixed. Some will be really educated, while others will have no need (inheriting wealth/family business)

Typical Employment:|None|Low Skill - Service Industry, Factories, some trades|Trades and office admin|Professionals - Teachers, Nurses, some Engineers/IT|Professionals - Accountants, Solicitors, Doctors, some Engineers/IT etc|Top of their field in their profession or none at all (due to inheritance)

Typical Businesses:|None|Street Vendors, Self-Employed Taxi-drivers/tradesmen etc|Small Shops, Small Tradesmen businesses|Larger Shops/pubs or several small ones|Medium sized companies etc or part owner of large company|Large companies, part owner of huge company

Crime:|Rampant. Little belief in the law. Petty theft, burglary, antisocial behaviour/ drug dealing rife. Violent criminal gangs rule. Guards/Law are the enemy|Some antisocial behaviour, especially amongst youth. Theft/Burglary/Drug Dealing etc occur, but less frequent. Guards/Law are looked down upon and should not be co-operated with.|Some minor antisocial behaviour & drug dealing, some tax evasion (tradesmen etc). Guards/Law are generally respected.|Some tax evasion with business owners. Guards/Law are a pillar of the community (except when caught speeding!)|Some tax evasion with business owners. Guards generally respected (except when caught speeding!)|Tax evasion is more common. Guards/Law are somewhat respected, but only when convenient.

Behaviour/Appearance in Public:|Shameless|Not too fussed. Tracksuits common and not embarrassed about being loud/boisterous. Not too concerned about what others think|Some tracksuits on men, generally dressed in basics. Generally quiet, but can be loud at times. Concerned about what the neighbours think|Tracksuits are a no-no, Embarrassed to be seen when not looking their best. Generally very quite and not wanting to make a scene. Very concerned with what the neighbours (even strangers) think.|Must always look your best. Typically very quite. Always trying to impress neighbours & strangers|Very mixed attitudes. Some still play the middle class game (to excess) and try to impress, but most just don't care what the "plebs" think!

Financial Status:|Lives off welfare and proceeds of crime. May occasionally work from time to time for low wages.|Low wages, little savings and regular debt for small luxuries. Typically dependant on welfare (housing/child benefit, some medical cards etc) as supplement to wages.|Modest wages, no welfare dependency. Little to no savings/investments.|Fairly high salaries but with very little financial excess. Some modest life saving/investments. Business owners will own a decent-priced company, but little equity to be released.|High salaries. Some financial excess. Typically, build up a decent savings/investment portfolio over their lives. Business Owners typically own an impressive shareholding and can release some equity at ease)|Mixed salaries. Some very high (in the case of top professionals and business owners), others on none (where they simply live off inheritance etc). Financial excess is common. Typically has large savings/investments.

Nonoperational

Akrasia wrote: »

you can't buy class.

The conceptions about class are all a bit warped anyway. The more adamantly you claim to be working class, the more likely you are to be long term unemployed.

I am the only income in a family of 5, I earn 25k a year before tax and I don't consider myself 'working class'.

I think in the 21st century we need to get beyond the idea of classes and realise that we are all citizens and we should all have equal opportunities and responsibilities. This means the law should apply equally to all with no exemptions for the very rich and the 'disadvantaged' but also, everyone should have equal access to education, healthcare and social services.

This requires redistribution of income by the way.

Capitalist economies are designed to allocate resources based on supply and demand, but even if that mechanism is a good mechanism for deciding the price of resources, it doesn't mean that it is a good way for allocating distribution of income in a society.

There is enough research out there that shows that unequal distribution of income in an economy has negative impacts on the quality of life for those living there. There is more crime, more social stratification, more begging, more suffering.

Wow, what a load of nonsense.

Frank Lee Midere

Dotsman has a pretty good summary of how class is viewed in ireland. In the Marxist view of class however neither income, the distinction between intellectual or manual labour, nor the type of lifestyle matters, its how you work. If you work in a non managerial role, for somebody or some company you are working class. I am not a marxist but that seems relatively precise.

To to answer the thread - earnings don't matter its how you earn them.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

This requires redistribution of income by the way.

What a sanitised way of saying "taking other people's money"

anncoates

Your nights out sound quite riveting, OP.

steddyeddy

I think it's a set of attitudes more than a set income.

anncoates

In its traditional definition, it's more a collection of values than a monetary level although a certain level of financial stability is implicit.

Owning a house in a particular area(s) , employment in a profession; a prioritization of education and an apprecuation of certain core prescribed cultural values.

Also tradionally a mobile class, as in its values can be acquired, not born into. Also not generally of a specific political caste.

DainBramage

The 65k guy will presumably be getting the wifes tax free allowance also if shes not working. So that 65 k gross will nearly be 65 k net. Plus childrens allowance for 3 kids, he's not doing too bad.

omahaid

DainBramage wrote: »

The 65k guy will presumably be getting the wifes tax free allowance also if shes not working. So that 65 k gross will nearly be 65 k net. Plus childrens allowance for 3 kids, he's not doing too bad.

He is as long as he can avoid paying anything for the wife and 3 kids.

smcgiff

DainBramage wrote: »

The 65k guy will presumably be getting the wifes tax free allowance also if shes not working. So that 65 k gross will nearly be 65 k net. Plus childrens allowance for 3 kids, he's not doing too bad.

Can you be my tax adviser please?

SpannerMonkey

dont think it has anything to do with money or education or your house or your job etc

its down to how you live your life . and how you treat those around you .
the wealthy guy thats a genuinely good person and helps those around him for no personal gain .
and decent people that have nothing and live in poor areas i consder to have more class than the lad in the ferarri who treats everyone like trash



there is pricks in all aspects of society and they are who i consider lower class

copacetic

DainBramage wrote: »

The 65k guy will presumably be getting the wifes tax free allowance also if shes not working. So that 65 k gross will nearly be 65 k net. Plus childrens allowance for 3 kids, he's not doing too bad.

You clearly have a great understanding of the tax system there. 65k of tax credits a year for a single earning married couple? You should be in charge.

biko

I'm working classy. Nah, prob lower or middle middle class.

Shane732

DainBramage wrote: »

The 65k guy will presumably be getting the wifes tax free allowance also if shes not working. So that 65 k gross will nearly be 65 k net. Plus childrens allowance for 3 kids, he's not doing too bad.

What now?

That's crap.

€65k gross for a married couple with one salary is somewhere in the low €40k's net.

smcgiff

Think some people are mixing up classy with class.

Class is a social hierarchy,

Yet those in the upper class may not act classy.

There is class structure in Ireland, maybe not as bad as Britain, but it does exist.

SpannerMonkey

Shane732 wrote: »

What now?

That's crap.

€65k gross for a married couple with one salary is somewhere in the low €40k's net.

prob wouldnt even be in the 40's , more likely high 30's

smcgiff

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

prob wouldnt even be in the 40's , more likely high 30's

€45,609 per Deloitte tax calculator

mikemac1

Farmers can be slaving for 18 hours a day in heat and pouring rain for less then the dole.

Or they could millionaires employing 3 labourers and all they do all day is drive around the Range Rover

Farmers all work but they don't fit into any class tbh

Shane732

Voltex wrote: »

Some friends and I were discussing what income levels best describe class levels in Ireland.

One friend has a stay at home wife, three young kids and a €1500/pm mortgage. He earns about €65K (Gross), in a very secure job and struggles on that, but considers himself working class. Another friend earns about €75k, single, renting in Monkstown and considers himself middle class.

Both salaries are pretty close to each other yet one thinks of himself as in a different class.

Is €65K enough for a family of 5 to live on?..Is the class structure just a perception based on what your experience of life is?

IMO €65k gross is nowhere near enough for a family to live on.

A gross salary of €65,000 per annum will give you a net of roughly €3,700. Naturally this varies depending on personal circumstance.

If you have a mortgage of €1,500 - €2,000 per annum you're left with roughly €2,000 a month. I'd say trying to live on €2,000 a month with a spouse and children is impossible.

I'm currently young, single and don't own an apartment/house. I wouldn't consider buying a property on anything less than €75k per annum as a single individual.

Shane732

smcgiff wrote: »

€45,609 per Deloitte tax calculator

And that calculator is wrong as far as I'm aware.

smcgiff

mikemac1 wrote: »

Farmers can be slaving for 18 hours a day in heat and pouring rain for less then the dole.

Or they could millionaires employing 3 labourers and all they do all day is drive around the Range Rover

Farmers all work but they don't fit into any class tbh

They would go across all class sectors.

From the 10 acre farmer who would be working class to the landed gentry that would have been the original upper class.

smcgiff

Shane732 wrote: »

And that calculator is wrong as far as I'm aware.

It's pretty close.

SpannerMonkey

smcgiff wrote: »

€45,609 per Deloitte tax calculator

well then im getting rightly screwed somewhere

im 83,800 before tax and take home is 47,500

smcgiff

Shane732 wrote: »

. I wouldn't consider buying a property on anything less than €75k per annum as a single individual.

Then you'll have to wait until you're in the very high median of earners. It's also likely you'll not reach this until you are at least one or two decades into your career.

smcgiff

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

well then im getting rightly screwed somewhere :mad:

That was for a married person.


You might also have pension and other deductions from your wages that you get a benefit from such as VHI.

For example PS workers pay a lot for pension and other benefits.

Didn't see where you mentioned you were on €83k - are you single, have other deductions?

SpannerMonkey

single and ya sorry i hadnt counted pension of 210 per month .

smcgiff

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

single and ya sorry i hadnt counted pension of 210 per month .

The deloitte calculator is showing €49,606. So, approx 2k of a difference.

Have revenue reduced your tax credits due to under paying in previous years?

If you want PM me your latest payslip and I'll give a look at it. You can black out your PPS number, name and address.

SpannerMonkey

its ok thanks , dont really fancy sending off my payslip to someone i dont know , no offence:)

thanks anyway;)

il get it checked out if your sure its wrong ?

smcgiff

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

its ok thanks , dont really fancy sending off my payslip to someone i dont know , no offence:)

thanks anyway;)

il get it checked out if your sure its wrong ?

No offence taken.

Not sure, I've not checked the Deloitte figures. But, I'd be surprised if they were wrong.

BTW, it is likely you should be paying more than €210 per month in pension on that income.

Shane732

smcgiff wrote: »

Then you'll have to wait until you're in the very high median of earners. It's also likely you'll not reach this until you are at least one or two decades into your career.

What?!

Do you work in practice?

€75k is very obtainable at tax manager level. Depending on how good you are you could be at tax manager level with 3 years PQE. So assuming 3 years training and 3 years PQE that would be 6 years into a career.

I qualified in 2010 and was promoted to tax manager in May.

Granted I went an unusual route which, thankfully has benefited me.

smcgiff

Shane732 wrote: »

What?!

Do you work in practice?

€75k is very obtainable at tax manager level. Depending on how good you are you could be at tax manager level with 3 years PQE. So assuming 3 years training and 3 years PQE that would be 6 years into a career.

I qualified in 2010 and was promoted to tax manager in May.

Granted I went an unusual route which, thankfully has benefited me.

I'm speaking in general. Good for you.

But, if you were to apply the same criteria to the general population very few people would own their own houses.

But, you raise a good point. The higher up the social scale you go the less in touch with reality you're likely to become.