Calves from dairy herd

Farfield

Just wondering, how many dairy farmers out there rear their beef calves from the dairy herd to say a year old or do you sell as calves? Also interested approx what percent of your herd do you serve to a beef bull.
I am milking about 55 cows at the minute and do about 20 to Friesien for say 10 replacements per year and the rest to beef bull and rear maybe 25 to year old and sell then. Am I wasting my time- should I go for more cows instead?

epfff

Should you not do your own figures and see which is paying best

Farmer Pudsey

I think you should keep them until they are year and a halves. I much prefer to buy cattle at this age as they often cost the same as they would in the spring. I have a better chance of making a few bob out of them.

Timmaay

There would almost always be a better margin in milking as many cows that the milking block can comfortably hold, than having a mix of dairy and beef on it. Then other benefits like less labour with only the one enterprise. Ditching those 25 weanlings would maybe allow you an extra 10/15cows? But yeh you will have to go do your sums, is your block setup for more cows, will you need more cubicles, yard space, parlour units etc etc.

bbam

Timmaay wrote: »

There would almost always be a better margin in milking as many cows that the milking block can comfortably hold, than having a mix of dairy and beef on it. Then other benefits like less labour with only the one enterprise. Ditching those 25 weanlings would maybe allow you an extra 10/15cows? But yeh you will have to go do your sums, is your block setup for more cows, will you need more cubicles, yard space, parlour units etc etc.

Do the math !, then do it again
Most of me would say ditch the beef and go for more cows, farmers should be all for profit and its the only enterprise showing decent returns and cash flow.
However... there is an alternative view that would say don't put all your eggs into one basket. that's why you need to do the math, are your weanlings leaving a profit worth persuing? If they are then it may be worth running the duel entreprise and chances are in any given year one of them will do well...

funny man

bbam wrote: »

Do the math !, then do it again
Most of me would say ditch the beef and go for more cows, farmers should be all for profit and its the only enterprise showing decent returns and cash flow.
However... there is an alternative view that would say don't put all your eggs into one basket. that's why you need to do the math, are your weanlings leaving a profit worth persuing? If they are then it may be worth running the duel entreprise and chances are in any given year one of them will do well...

it comes down to profit in rearing these animals, the average 100 euro profit that you get on the sale of a suck is much better than the 50 euro more you might make if you keep them. if you put a labour charge and a land charge against them, well its a no-brainer IMO.

whelan1

out the gate at a week - 10 days old here.... leaves room for dairy stock

Farfield

Yep, there is defo a lot of work to rearing them. Its just that for the wee angus and white head calves that i have sold before only seem to fetch 80-100 euro at say 2 weeks old, whereas at a year old i am getting average 700 euro.
I could carry probably 20 more cows on an 80 acre grazing block around the parlour but i would have to extend the cubicle shed and tank - parlour is fine.
Whereas with the beef i have loads of very good sheds on another farm close by that is excellent for beef and dairy replacements etc.
Maybe to sell the calves at wee drops i should use a continental bull and try to push towards 200euro each at 2-3 weeks old? Any suggestions?

Timmaay

If sexed ai works well another idea would be to breed more replacements and sell them on, should be plenty demand if this milk output increases post 2015.

I'd say continentals would only be a runner if you have a fairly spread out calving season, you certainly don't want lots of difficult calvings during an already very busy feb if you calf everything down then!

How long is your winter also, if its short enough you could leave some drycows out in the far sheds and bring them to the main yard just before calving.

Look at the big picture also, in dairying the calves always are only a byproduct, if you sell them 25 calves for 200 instead of 100,thats only 2.5grand extra a yr, assume thats pure profit (it wont be), what would 20extra cows net you? Assume 5000l/cow,at 10c/l profit, thats 10grand extra in profit from the milk.

Farfield

I take your point. Winter is fairly long up here - about 6 months indoors full time at least and then maybe another 2 months out during the day & in at night. Oh and yes i am in all year round milk as the summer season is so short anyway.

Prob in this scenario Brit Friesien cows which are a grass based cow may not even be the best breed for me, possibly a bit of Holstein, though i dont like them. I have no problems at the minute with fertility, feet or anything else. Thats where the Brit Friesien are best - even though they dont give great amounts of milk in all year round milking.

whelan1

but if you used br/fr on all your cows, you will get replacement heifers and good fr bull calves that would be worth as much as an angus / hereford heifer calf as drop calves.

orchardfarmer

on a similar theme, i keep suckler cows at the minute but am thinking of selling them as 1 am trying to cut down on my workload as its part time 2 the land i farm is fairly heavy and the suckler cow is doing damage

how many dairy bull calves could i carry on 20 acres? thinking of buying them x farm at say a month old and selling at 12 months.

Farmer Pudsey

I stay with the AA/WH calves less trouble and easier on the cows. 700/head sounds a high average for yearling while a WH calf off a BF cow would make 200 minimum I taught. AA calves may not sell well but I would have imagined about 330-370 gap between calf and yearling. A gap nearing 600 would justify a yearling system but I do not think a 350-400 gap would

PatQfarmer

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I stay with the AA/WH calves less trouble and easier on the cows. 700/head sounds a high average for yearling while a WH calf off a BF cow would make 200 minimum I taught. AA calves may not sell well but I would have imagined about 330-370 gap between calf and yearling. A gap nearing 600 would justify a yearling system but I do not think a 350-400 gap would

I'd love to be buying those calves at €100, but it's hard done. Even this yr, calves cost €200+ for anything that was half-right. The 15-16mths I sold made €850-900, but I had to sell as was stocked too heavy. Lucky I did, just before the drought:D
I would imagine most dairy men would make more money from cows, but it is a good idea to have a foot in both camps, just in case...

bbam

orchardfarmer wrote: »

on a similar theme, i keep suckler cows at the minute but am thinking of selling them as 1 am trying to cut down on my workload as its part time 2 the land i farm is fairly heavy and the suckler cow is doing damage

how many dairy bull calves could i carry on 20 acres? thinking of buying them x farm at say a month old and selling at 12 months.

Have you reared many sucks to date?
This is what we do on a small scale and it's no breeze.

It's easier from the perspective of not handling large cows or a bull, following a car crash this was a big deal for me. From the perspective of workload, when they're on milk it's busier than sucklers.

Margins are low and it's very sensitive to calf prices and yearling prices.

Spring 2012 I didn't buy one calf, prices were just crazy. Bought August 2012 and prices were much better.

This spring I bought Fr bulls for the first time and am more than happy with them. Have progressed well and for €80 a head they were handy bought.

Won't EVER buy another Angus suck calf, it's 50:50 at best if they will have any size in them at all.

PatQfarmer

bbam wrote: »

Have you reared many sucks to date?
This is what we do on a small scale and it's no breeze.

It's easier from the perspective of not handling large cows or a bull, following a car crash this was a big deal for me. From the perspective of workload, when they're on milk it's busier than sucklers.

Margins are low and it's very sensitive to calf prices and yearling prices.

Spring 2012 I didn't buy one calf, prices were just crazy. Bought August 2012 and prices were much better.

This spring I bought Fr bulls for the first time and am more than happy with them. Have progressed well and for €80 a head they were handy bought.

Won't EVER buy another Angus suck calf, it's 50:50 at best if they will have any size in them at all.

We always do AA, but am finding the same. Dairy men have been using more AI on cows and leaving the AA bull to the first-calvers, producing smaller calves. Rare to use AA to "mop up" the cows like before, so across the board, my yearlings and finishers are getting smaller and lighter. Up to 100kg diff at 14mths for same age, same bull, only difference being hfr dam versus cow dam!
While the few AA that I have from cows are great stock, I have a LimX calf ex BR FR cow that is a much different class of animal! Most dairy men seem to be putting Lim or Ch to the cows not breeding replacements.
Way to go imo.

lakill Farm

sticks head in the door, .

How many dairy farmers with BWH or AAX calves in November/Dec for sale?

Farmer Pudsey

The only thing about Fresians is that the price gap has opened between them and other breeds. Even though AA fail to put on weight because they grade and the bonus scheme you could have a 50 cent/kg difference between them and the fresian, Fresians were grand while you could kill as bulls up to 30 months of age. However very few will grade before 30 months as bullocks.

QA is now 12cent/kg. On top of that it is possible to kill AA in may/June off grass when prices are high a fresian bullock bought as a store will usually run out to september. This year the gap will be over a eoro/kg between AA cattle sold in June and a Fresian sold in early September. By November this gap may be nearer 1.5/kg.

A lot of profit is targeting certains times, it is the same with the Bull market. The demand is usually December/January then from mid April until late June after that keep away from the market as it is unpredictable.

280kg angus bullock would have come into 1350 euro approx during May/June. Willl a 360 kg Fresian bullock make it in September. Fresian Bulls are a disaster at present.

It is all a matter of timing.

Dont be daft

PatQfarmer wrote: »

Most dairy men seem to be putting Lim or Ch to the cows not breeding replacements.
Way to go imo.

Haven't seen that many CHX but have had a good few LMX here and I don't rate them at all. There not as fast growing as a HEX and we've had a few head de balls that have been a nightmare.

We've been pouring over the kill figures for the last 3 years and the HEX is consistently coming out as a good performer. They never run over 22mths and most were fit at 18mths. Don't need crazy amounts of meal to finish them. Not a bad kill out % and almost all killed off grass.

My favorite dairy-beef cross animal by far.

Mind you, not the best mark up as we buy in at 8-12mths and at that stage the premium on whiteheads is a lot. But if I was rearing calf to beef I'd definitely go for whiteheads as often as could.

Best mark up left by any animal last year was a JEX!

PatQfarmer

Dont be daft wrote: »

Best mark up left by any animal last year was a JEX!

You sure that wasn't a "brown angus"?:D

PatQfarmer

lakill Farm wrote: »

sticks head in the door, .

How many dairy farmers with BWH or AAX calves in November/Dec for sale?

I may be able to give you some of my suppliers, but be warned, they are mainly out of heifers. Talk nearer the time.

Timmaay

PatQfarmer wrote: »

You sure that wasn't a "brown angus"?:D

Maybe he was paid to take the jex

Dont be daft

PatQfarmer wrote: »

You sure that wasn't a "brown angus"?:D

Nope, proper kiwi cross. Remember, I said best mark up. He was bought in for close to nothing.
He wasn't mine so I don't remember much about him. Who knows how much meal the scrawbag ate before the oul lad finally got sick of looking at him:D

Farmer Pudsey

There is a saying it never pays to breed a bad one, though it often pays to buy a bad one. I wonder if JEX bullocks could be better buying than FRX. The Jex will kill lighter but again it may be possible to get him out in June he may not be pretty but he may put flesh on between 26-28 months so he may kill early.

Profitable beef farming is all about price in and price out not the final weight or how much more or less/kg they make. Trying to get dairy cross cattle into big weights may be a mistake as there feed effiency rate is poor.

Sam Kade

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

There is a saying it never pays to breed a bad one, though it often pays to buy a bad one. I wonder if JEX bullocks could be better buying than FRX. The Jex will kill lighter but again it may be possible to get him out in June he may not be pretty but he may put flesh on between 26-28 months so he may kill early.

Profitable beef farming is all about price in and price out not the final weight or how much more or less/kg they make. Trying to get dairy cross cattle into big weights may be a mistake as there feed effiency rate is poor.

I had the pleasure of doing just that a few years ago, never again. JEX cattle are like trying to fatten greyhounds and they still eat as much as a hereford or angus. You are better off paying €100 extra for a calf that will make use of it's feed.

Farmer Pudsey

Sam Kade wrote: »

I had the pleasure of doing just that a few years ago, never again. JEX cattle are like trying to fatten greyhounds and they still eat as much as a hereford or angus. You are better off paying €100 extra for a calf that will make use of it's feed.

I do not buy calves in general year and a half stores is what I buy. AA and HEX cost usually about 2/KG or a bit with it. FRX around 1.5/kg or a bit less if JEX came in at a euro/kg I consider them as I think they would leave as much if not more of a margin. What is killing FRX's is that you end up with them all until September or later.

F.D

hex would have been out fav over the past few years of doing calves, they tick most of the boxes, with angus its hard to come a cross a nice square one as said above we bought a lot of simental cross from a local dairy farmer this year and are happy with the way they are growing, but they were a little harder to rear that the whithead
I think Dairy farmers are missing a trick if milk prices slump in 2015 and they havent the back up of quality calves or stock to sell, i for one will not buy anything that has a sniff of a jersey or a boney kiwi cross in it !!