Grading Review

wav1

I have been asked to sit on a working group which is to review the grading system and bring proposals to the AGM in November.I would welcome any comments/suggestions that you have regarding this issue.
Somethings i think needs discussion
1 There are A3 riders in their 50s who are afraid of getting upgraded to A2 as they couldn't hack it.I think a rider over 50 should remain A3 regardless of points unless they WANT to go up?
2 As the Juniors have been mopping up a lot of the points in A3 races,that a full allocation of A3 points be awarded also.This might entail having to go further down the placings,but it will help in getting A3s through the system quicker.
3 The Juniors to remain as is,as the reintroduction of the Jun category has worked and has produced lots of good riders.Time enough for them to go up when they pass 18.
4 I would like to look at getting age related vets champs up and running.IE 40-45 45-50 50-55 etc?
Any comments are welcome,as this is only a working group it will still need to be ratified at the AGM

lennymc

in relation to placings - would it be feasible to use transponders and some sort of timing system to sort out places? I know at least one club uses them for their league, and the total cost for 20 odd races was about an extra 10 euro per rider. If something like that was used, then there would be no problems with handing out points to any cat rider, even if they were handed out in races were a1/2/3/4 riders were taking place.

Just a thought.

michael196

Great points Ger,

What about at the top end , A1 races restricted to A1 and not A+

Will survey and seek suggetsions from our crew

buffalo

Wish I could offer more constructive feedback wav, but all your points sound good to me!

fondriest

All very good points , but in my own humble opinion I think any junior that is capable of scoring over 50 points is capable of riding A2 . I mean there are juniors with well over 100 points . You have made your views on this subject clear before but just my 2 cents !

Mr. Grieves

I'd be interested in seeing the numbers, but it does seem to me that the changes made last year have worked quite well - lots of people I know of have been upgraded one or two cats already this year (my club has quadrupled its number of A1's since this time last year :P).

This is a good thing, but there is the problem of fewer races for A1's later in the season, stage races particularly. Donegal, Newry, Wexford, Charleville and a few more I can't think of, are all A2/A3. Suir Valley is the only stage race available to A1's after the Ras and the fact that An Post and Rapha-Condor are racing this year may put people off. I wonder is there a way to incentivise clubs to allow A1's in some of the races I've mentioned. It might put off A2's or A3's (though they're used to racing against Juniors as strong as A1's), but the increase in standard isn't that great - remember many of this year's A1's might still be A2 if the grading changes that were made this year hadn't been. A+ could be excluded as mentioned.

I wonder has the increase in upgrades made the occasional A1-only race feasible (or desirable?). Maybe that would take a few years.

pprendeville

Agree with Lennymc. Even if you don't place it's nice to know where you did finish and it saves a lot of hassle. At a race in Ballivor, I thought I had placed and the whole thing was being decided by someone who had videoed the finish on their phone. Turned out I hadn't put myself in the right position relative to the phone.:(

lennymc

pprendeville wrote: »

Agree with Lennymc. Even if you don't place it's nice to know where you did finish and it saves a lot of hassle. At a race in Ballivor, I thought I had placed and the whole thing was being decided by someone who had videoed the finish on their phone. Turned out I hadn't put myself in the right position relative to the phone.:(

hey Pprendeville, i was the guy with the phone, just to clarify, I didnt decide anything. The normal camera had a problem. Alternative was people with bits of card looking for 1,2,3 placed riders in the finishing bunch. I was on the line, and caught everyone going over the line, the race organisers and commissaire made the decision based on what I recorded, and were happy enough with the results, and I think i do remember spending about 5 minutes or so with someone (who may or may not have been you) showing where he had finished.

Lenny

RockWerchter

I think there should be points for the provincial TT championships.

pprendeville

Yup, that was me. Next time please stand on opposite side of the road.

drops

RockWerchter wrote: »

I think there should be points for the provincial TT championships.

Id like to see this too, even the open TT's like Sorrento and Micky Palmer, when you look at the top 3 they are all savage riders anyone who gets top 3 in one of these should get points

Beasty

Just coming back to this on the back of a post I've just made in the Leinster Championships thread

CI seems slightly our of sync with the UCI in that the vets category starts at 40 as opposed to 35 for UCI Masters events

However I have noticed a lot of top class racers still doing very well in their 40s (and some continue to "star" in IVCA races beyond that)

A Masters category has been introduced for over 50 A4 and club racers, although this is almost exclusively taken advantage of in Ulster.

I am conscious of the upward trend in the average age of CI members and that there are a lot of riders continuing to do open races into their 40s, although not so many make it into their 50s, often "transferring" to the IVCA as they get older (presumably because competing with such a wide age difference is going to be a struggle - I certainly find that to be the case)

I think it's worth considering 2 overall vets/masters categories - 35-49 (which brings the lower age limit in line with the UCI) and capitalising on the existing 50+ Masters category (whether it would continue to be restricted to A4 riders could be debated further). I really dont think narrowing it down into 5 year age brackets will work as certainly in the older categories there will simply not be enough riders to make meaningful races. However splitting it down this way with Provincial and National Championships in both categories will in my view open up racing a lot more to people as they get that bit older. I also think clubs should be encouraged to put on Masters races alongside their open events as currently happens in Ulster

morana

Beasty wrote: »

Just coming back to this on the back of a post I've just made in the Leinster Championships thread

CI seems slightly our of sync with the UCI in that the vets category starts at 40 as opposed to 35 for UCI Masters events

However I have noticed a lot of top class racers still doing very well in their 40s (and some continue to "star" in IVCA races beyond that)

A Masters category has been introduced for over 50 A4 and club racers, although this is almost exclusively taken advantage of in Ulster.

I am conscious of the upward trend in the average age of CI members and that there are a lot of riders continuing to do open races into their 40s, although not so many make it into their 50s, often "transferring" to the IVCA as they get older (presumably because competing with such a wide age difference is going to be a struggle - I certainly find that to be the case)

I think it's worth considering 2 overall vets/masters categories - 35-49 (which brings the lower age limit in line with the UCI) and capitalising on the existing 50+ Masters category (whether it would continue to be restricted to A4 riders could be debated further). I really dont think narrowing it down into 5 year age brackets will work as certainly in the older categories there will simply not be enough riders to make meaningful races. However splitting it down this way with Provincial and National Championships in both categories will in my view open up racing a lot more to people as they get that bit older. I also think clubs should be encouraged to put on Masters races alongside their open events as currently happens in Ulster

Just to add to this when I was active in CI I did ask for people to take the initiatvie on a Connaught/Munster and Ulster Vets Association run along the lines of the IVCA. Ulster werent interested as they felt what they had was sufficient. I also feel that their should be a Vets commission or body to assist with the establishment of provinicial leagues and then to have a n all Ireland weekend with age related championships. I got no responses but I still think its something worth pursuing. A lot of older guys in connaught.

As regards the established grades I cant see any advantage to be gained by changing it. The women on the other hand should have a separate classification W1,2,3 and they should be afforded the oppurtunity to race in stage races like the A3 can. Currently a vast majority are classed as a4 but there is dispensation for them to ride stage races.However I did get some frantic calls from some ladies reagrding their participation in the Nationals being disallowed as they were A4! The new womens classification might help the newer ones coming into the sport.

Points for other races should be more generous. The TT in the Gorey for example has only 3,2,1 pts which should be upped. Again I know its a place taking issue but I think points down to 20 or so would be good. a lot of guys dont score points this mighht be more of an incentive.

High Nellie

Beasty wrote: »

Just coming back to this on the back of a post I've just made in the Leinster Championships thread

CI seems slightly our of sync with the UCI in that the vets category starts at 40 as opposed to 35 for UCI Masters events

However I have noticed a lot of top class racers still doing very well in their 40s (and some continue to "star" in IVCA races beyond that)

A Masters category has been introduced for over 50 A4 and club racers, although this is almost exclusively taken advantage of in Ulster.

I am conscious of the upward trend in the average age of CI members and that there are a lot of riders continuing to do open races into their 40s, although not so many make it into their 50s, often "transferring" to the IVCA as they get older (presumably because competing with such a wide age difference is going to be a struggle - I certainly find that to be the case)

I think it's worth considering 2 overall vets/masters categories - 35-49 (which brings the lower age limit in line with the UCI) and capitalising on the existing 50+ Masters category (whether it would continue to be restricted to A4 riders could be debated further). I really dont think narrowing it down into 5 year age brackets will work as certainly in the older categories there will simply not be enough riders to make meaningful races. However splitting it down this way with Provincial and National Championships in both categories will in my view open up racing a lot more to people as they get that bit older. I also think clubs should be encouraged to put on Masters races alongside their open events as currently happens in Ulster

"CI seems slightly our of sync with the UCI in that the vets category starts at 40 as opposed to 35 for UCI Masters events" - most of the people involved in the decision-making seem to be out of sync with the UCI 'masters' category. As far as I know, the current 'Vets' concept and thinking is an particularity Irish legacy idea and we would be better off to forget about it, and get in 'Masters' thinking.

"although not so many make it into their 50s, often "transferring" to the IVCA as they get older" - that's only inside the Pale and is no use to the rest of the country. That is one of the reasons why this question hasn't been tackled before - the existence of the IVCA reduces the pressure to change.

"whether it would continue to be restricted to A4 riders could be debated further" - let everybody ride in the category which matches their ability.

"I really dont think narrowing it down into 5 year age brackets will work as certainly in the older categories there will simply not be enough riders to make meaningful races". Yes, there just isn't the critical mass.

"However splitting it down this way with Provincial and National Championships in both categories will in my view open up racing a lot more to people as they get that bit older." I still think it would need to be 10-year gaps to get decent fields but, like in underage racing, you could give a prize, for example, to the best over 55 in the 55-59 field.

"I think it's worth considering 2 overall vets/masters categories - 35-49" Not sure what you mean by this. For week-end racing or national champs etc? The fact that CI doesn't even run Masters Nat. Champs is an indication of the thinking. I think this would be very easy to run: e.g.

One event (like current weekend races where you have up to three categories on the same circuit)

35-45 - three laps with prize for best over-40
45-55 - two laps with prize for best over-50
55-65 - one lap with prize for best over 60

See - done and dusted in under two hours. Now, which club want to run the first Irish Masters National Road Championships?

Beasty

High Nellie wrote: »

"although not so many make it into their 50s, often "transferring" to the IVCA as they get older" - that's only inside the Pale and is no use to the rest of the country. That is one of the reasons why this question hasn't been tackled before - the existence of the IVCA reduces the pressure to change.

I agree it's largely within the Pale, but with Ulster dealing with it via the Masters category it does leave little scope for "older" races to find appropriate racing opportunities in the other 2 Provinces

morana highlighted the need for a vets commission and I know he's been pushing for this for some time. I appreciate the commission structure is also under review, but we do need an all-Ireland body to pick up the baton on the issue of vets racing under the CI umbrella. That requires volunteers who are happy to help pull together a "plan" to step forward High Nellie;)

High Nellie

morana wrote: »

Just to add to this when I was active in CI I did ask for people to take the initiatvie on a Connaught/Munster and Ulster Vets Association run along the lines of the IVCA. Ulster werent interested as they felt what they had was sufficient. I also feel that their should be a Vets commission or body to assist with the establishment of provinicial leagues and then to have a n all Ireland weekend with age related championships. I got no responses but I still think its something worth pursuing. A lot of older guys in connaught.

As regards the established grades I cant see any advantage to be gained by changing it. The women on the other hand should have a separate classification W1,2,3 and they should be afforded the opportunity to race in stage races like the A3 can. Currently a vast majority are classed as a4 but there is dispensation for them to ride stage races.However I did get some frantic calls from some ladies regarding their participation in the Nationals being disallowed as they were A4! The new women's classification might help the newer ones coming into the sport.

Points for other races should be more generous. The TT in the Gorey for example has only 3,2,1 pts which should be upped. Again I know its a place taking issue but I think points down to 20 or so would be good. a lot of guys dont score points this mighht be more of an incentive.

" I did ask for people to take the initiatvie on a Connaught/Munster and Ulster Vets Association run along the lines of the IVCA ..." Why do Masters need to be in a separate Association? That's just more bureaucracy and it just won't work from a practical point of view. For example, clubs who run races are already stretched and separate events are going to be rare. It will work best if it can be incorporated into the regular calendar (with the exception of National and perhaps provincial champs).

"As regards the established grades I cant see any advantage to be gained by changing it". I agree mostly, but some of the 'small print' is daft. Take for example that former International riders can't ever be classified as A4, even if they are 70 years of age and haven't been an International in 45 years. No wonder they stick to IVCA. That's only one example.

morana

High Nellie wrote: »

" I did ask for people to take the initiatvie on a Connaught/Munster and Ulster Vets Association run along the lines of the IVCA ..."" Why do Masters need to be in a separate Association? That's just more bureaucracy and it just won't work from a practical point of view. For example, clubs who run races are already stretched and separate events are going to be rare. It will work best if it can be incorporated into the regular calendar (with the exception of National and perhaps provincial champs)."

It was simply because they would be members of an (vets) association thus avoiding the requirement for a full competition licence and allow the league to set fees etc for the full series.

"As regards the established grades I cant see any advantage to be gained by changing it". I agree mostly, but some of the 'small print' is daft. Take for example that former International riders can't ever be classified as A4, even if they are 70 years of age and haven't been an International in 45 years. No wonder they stick to IVCA. That's only one example.

I dont think thats what happens at all but point taken. Amend rule to anybody over 69 can be an A4

High Nellie

morana wrote: »

It was simply because they would be members of an (vets) association thus avoiding the requirement for a full competition licence and allow the league to set fees etc for the full series.



I dont think thats what happens at all but point taken. Amend rule to anybody over 69 can be an A4

From the Technical Rules 2013, page 23:
"9. Former International riders will normally be issued with an A1 licence. However on representation to the National Grading Officer he may be re-graded as A2 or A3."
Not so funny for those affected, and I know some of them.

morana

High Nellie wrote: »

From the Technical Rules 2013, page 23:
"9. Former International riders will normally be issued with an A1 licence. However on representation to the National Grading Officer he may be re-graded as A2 or A3."
Not so funny for those affected, and I know some of them.

we have 70 year old A1/2/3's???????

Who are they?

High Nellie

morana wrote: »

we have 70 year old A1/2/3's???????

Who are they?

No, that's not the point I was making - it's that former international riders are barred from A4 and, effectively therefore, from competitoin when they reach an age at which they could no longer compete in A3 (for which they would have to get a special dispensaton). That age, I would guess for former internationals, would be mid-to-late 50s.

For example, I know two guys in their mid-60s who could be competive in A4 but are ruled out because they were international riders a long time ago. They ride with IVCA of course and they are therefore motivated to remain elite athletes. I don't know any over-70s - I was just making an illustartion.

As I said, that's just one example of how out-dated the thining is in relation to 'Vets' and there's little point in getting bogged down in just one particurlar detail. The whole system needs an overhaul in relation to Vets/Masters, but it needs a different mindset from the 'powers that be'.

A study of international 'best practice' in relation to Masters might be in order for those involved in decision as a lot of native thinking is a bit limited. Talk of Vets and Masters brings a a bit of an indulgent little smile to some - it's seen as a bit of a novelty, like women's cycling not so long ago.

morana

High Nellie wrote: »

No, that's not the point I was making - it's that former international riders are barred from A4 and, effectively therefore, from competitoin when they reach an age at which they could no longer compete in A3 (for which they would have to get a special dispensaton). That age, I would guess for former internationals, would be mid-to-late 50s.

For example, I know two guys in their mid-60s who could be competive in A4 but are ruled out because they were international riders a long time ago. They ride with IVCA of course and they are therefore motivated to remain elite athletes. I don't know any over-70s - I was just making an illustartion.

As I said, that's just one example of how out-dated the thining is in relation to 'Vets' and there's little point in getting bogged down in just one particurlar detail. The whole system needs an overhaul in relation to Vets/Masters, but it needs a different mindset from the 'powers that be'.

A study of international 'best practice' in relation to Masters might be in order for those involved in decision as a lot of native thinking is a bit limited. Talk of Vets and Masters brings a a bit of an indulgent little smile to some - it's seen as a bit of a novelty, like women's cycling not so long ago.

I am not having a go just offering an opinion. If they are IVCA they can do open racing on that licence in A4 afaik.

But I take the point you make CI is way behind the curve as regards Masters but when we were coming from a racing base of 2.5k I dont think it was practical but now with the explosion they have to accommodate these riders or lose them because they offer very little for the older groups hence my call for a Vets Commission.

High Nellie

morana wrote: »

.....hence my call for a Vets Commission.

I'm sure you mean a Masters Commission :-)

morana

High Nellie wrote: »

I'm sure you mean a Masters Commission :-)

Doh! I do indeed!

dave2pvd

I'd caution against changing the Vets category to the UCI M35 age minimum seen in other countries.

Here in the US, I wish Masters was M40 instead of M35. We have a situation where a big portion of cat 1 and 2 riders are in their late 30s. These guys race against pros regularly. M35 is often used as a warm up for the pro event later in the day. Not much fun for a weekend warrior like me! (although what doesn't kill you, etc.).

If you lower the age minimum to 35, all of a sudden masters racing will become almost as fast as A1. you have to ask what repercussions will that will have.

High Nellie

dave2pvd wrote: »

I'd caution against changing the Vets category to the UCI M35 age minimum seen in other countries.

Here in the US, I wish Masters was M40 instead of M35. We have a situation where a big portion of cat 1 and 2 riders are in their late 30s. These guys race against pros regularly. M35 is often used as a warm up for the pro event later in the day. Not much fun for a weekend warrior like me! (although what doesn't kill you, etc.).

If you lower the age minimum to 35, all of a sudden masters racing will become almost as fast as A1. you have to ask what repercussions will that will have.

Yes, I'm aware of the criticism in the US but I don't think that problem would apply here as we wouldn't have the critical mass to have separate Masters races in the week-to-week calendar.

So, I would advocate that Masters would race in whatever 'normal' Category they would fit into (and perhaps have Masters prizes for the best at each Masters level).

Here, the elite 'Vets' (over 40) ride in our highest domestic category (Cat1) and are very competitive - a few of the best domestic riders are around 40ish.

We have one 'Vets National Championships', for all over 40, and it is elite domestic standard at the business end of the race - i.e. Cat1. So that takes no account of the fact that guys get slower as they get older (the same way as under-age is graded, recognizing that they get faster as they get older).

That is quite prestigious here and there would be reluctance to drop it, but I think it should be done for the benefit of the majority of 'Masters' at different levels.

Having said that, I do think there would be a point in having Masters categories for over 40, 50, 60, etc, but that would be out of kilter with UCI and their events such as Masters World Champs (such as they are).

Beasty

dave2pvd wrote: »

If you lower the age minimum to 35, all of a sudden masters racing will become almost as fast as A1. you have to ask what repercussions will that will have.

There are plenty of guys in the 40-45 age category who race (and regularly win) A1.

TBH the more natural cut-off is 50 (but I would say that;)) - even then there are a few over 50 racing at A2 level. I think 35-49 would actually work quite well in Ireland, but equally as High Nellie indicated 35-44 would - my only concern then would be lack of numbers once you get to 55+ (where I do tend to see quite a tail off in numbers, although there are some very talented guys still racing at 70+ in the IVCA - Sean Lally has been 2nd in 2 successive weekends and currently leads the vets league (on a handicap basis) at the age of 73 - he raced the Ras in his 50s)

High Nellie

Beasty wrote: »

There are plenty of guys in the 40-45 age category who race (and regularly win) A1.

TBH the more natural cut-off is 50 (but I would say that;)) - even then there are a few over 50 racing at A2 level. I think 35-49 would actually work quite well in Ireland, but equally as High Nellie indicated 35-44 would - my only concern then would be lack of numbers once you get to 55+ (where I do tend to see quite a tail off in numbers, although there are some very talented guys still racing at 70+ in the IVCA - Sean Lally has been 2nd in 2 successive weekends and currently leads the vets league (on a handicap basis) at the age of 73 - he raced the Ras in his 50s)

I can't see what the problem with 'numbers' is. If they (we) race normally in whatever category they (we) fit into, like every other racer, then numbers don't matter. We just slot into the normal Sunday races (but maybe competing for a Masters prize within that event if the organisers went to the trouble). So, let them (us!) race from Cat4 to Cat1 as normal, irrespective of age. We get upgraded and downgraded like everyone (a bit of tweeking would be needed in the Technical Regulations about upgrading and downgrading, but I won't get into that).
The only snag is in stage races - a good 55-year-old Cat3 will be at a disadvantage in mulch-stage events because of much slower recovery, but we can't have it every way.

The only place where 'numbers' would matter would be in Maters-only events. I am arguing that these would only be National champs (and maybe provincial). I don't think there would be any problem with numbers in these. I imagine all the IVCA lads would race for a national title and jersey, and it would make CI someway relevant to them (that is if a reciprocal arrangement still existed, but that's another issue altogether - different thread please if anyone wants to kick that off).

This suggestion isn't at all perfect, but I think it would be a start to get 'Masters' off the ground without having to restructure the system with new events etc. On a practical level, that just wouldn't happen.

Ok, I'm finished on this topic now .... (maybe)

wav1

A few stats that came to light in the last week

Oldest A1 in the country is 58

Approx 150 A4s upgraded to date this year
Approx 60 A3s upgraded this yr[hindered by the juns grabbing the points]
Like morana i would love to see the points continued down the placings to give out a full allocation of A3 points in addition to the juniors.I cant see it happening though as in fairness to the National grading officer he finds it hard enough to get the first eight from promoters as it is,Still up for discussion though.Discussions and ideas are ongoing and to date i think we have made progress particularly for the riders in the 45/50 age bracket and those over 50.
As far as vets/masters champs are concerned,yes i would agree that the current vet situation is an Irish system and not alligned to UCI practise.As the Nat Vets R/R Championships are currently tuned in to the weekend of the Nat elite and womans champs i cant see it being broken up in to different age categories in the short term anyway.As it stands at present riders born in 1974 [ie 40 next yr]will all be eligible to compete in the Vets Champs next yr and there is some batch of quality in there.Timmy Barry,Aidan Crowley,Stephen O Sullivan,Eugene Moriarty,Mehall Fitzgerald to name but a few.
I think going forward there should be age related champs maybe even within the one race,but i feel its going to take a while to change the mindset.Lots of other stuff also in relation to woman,but it will all be brought out in to the arena when everything is agreed and only then.As i said lots of time still to throw things on the table.

Beasty

High Nellie wrote: »

Ok, I'm finished on this topic now .... (maybe)

Hopefully not;)

With a bit of luck we are giving wav1 some food for thought - maybe a few of us need to put our hands up and get actively involved - there seems to be plenty of scope to work through some of the ideas we are already discussing here and I'm sure there are others who can contribute with a view to establishing something that works under the auspices of CI across all 4 provinces

wav1

Beasty wrote: »

Hopefully not;)

With a bit of luck we are giving wav1 some food for thought - maybe a few of us need to put our hands up and get actively involved - there seems to be plenty of scope to work through some of the ideas we are already discussing here and I'm sure there are others who can contribute with a view to establishing something that works under the auspices of CI across all 4 provinces

I agree.That should be a motion put to the AGM in November from a club.That basically a Vets/Masters Commission be put in place.Then the guys that have a vested interest and a genuine interest [and knowledge] of this aspect of our sport,put their hands up and volunteer to become part of it.Thats the only real way that progress can be achieved.Theres no point in saying ah this should happen or the other should happen if their not prepared to sit on the commission that can bring about change.When the youth Commission was in full bloom and alas its not now,it was some of the most productive time i ever spent in the sport and real results came about because of it.This current batch of Juniors didnt happen by accident.The same can be achieved at any commission level if like minded people are prepared to sit down and agree,and agree to disagree.Real progress can be made,but it must be the right people.No point in having someone say of 25 yrs old,making decisions and policing something like this when its not going to affect them until they return to cycling after getting married and a few kids etc and wondering why its all unfair for them at 45 yrs of age.

onimpulse

Could a handicapped system be introduced for the women's starts based on a grading system which takes into account points for the womens races?

I think the current system discourages women starting racing.

It's fantastic to see so many more races having ladies starts this year but this also means one mass start for all. There is no distinction between the very strong riders & the girls just starting racing So you end up with girls literally in their first race pitted against pro riders / national champs etc. This usually results in newer girls getting dropped very quickly. I've seen a few girls this summer routinely getting dropped a few km into a race, it's hard to keep coming back to that, there's no incentive.

The Crunch

morana wrote: »

Just to add to this when I was active in CI I did ask for people to take the initiatvie on a Connaught/Munster and Ulster Vets Association run along the lines of the IVCA. Ulster werent interested as they felt what they had was sufficient. I also feel that their should be a Vets commission or body to assist with the establishment of provinicial leagues and then to have a n all Ireland weekend with age related championships. I got no responses but I still think its something worth pursuing. A lot of older guys in connaught.

As regards the established grades I cant see any advantage to be gained by changing it. The women on the other hand should have a separate classification W1,2,3 and they should be afforded the oppurtunity to race in stage races like the A3 can. Currently a vast majority are classed as a4 but there is dispensation for them to ride stage races.However I did get some frantic calls from some ladies reagrding their participation in the Nationals being disallowed as they were A4! The new womens classification might help the newer ones coming into the sport.

Points for other races should be more generous. The TT in the Gorey for example has only 3,2,1 pts which should be upped. Again I know its a place taking issue but I think points down to 20 or so would be good. a lot of guys dont score points this mighht be more of an incentive.

My thoughts:-
I think points should be distributed based on the number of riders that signed on rather than the distance. I think finishing top six in a crit against 80 others should get a proper reward.
Totally agree about time trials getting proper points as well.
Women need proper distinct grading:- W1,2,3.
Separate medals at the vets champs RR in five year age groups but only one jersey - for the first rider over the line!
As for the juniors, if the race is less than 100km and they have the points let them race with the a2s, I say.
And I think it would be great if there were IVCA branches in all four provinces. Where are the volunteers?

High Nellie

wav1 wrote: »

I think going forward there should be age related champs maybe even within the one race

Sorry, I'm back sooner than promised, prompted by above.

Thanks for the updated Wav1 - obviously a lot of work being done on a tricky question - you are not going to satisfy everybody - and the work of the grading group is to work with the current system. The move to a Masters concept is another issue, but ideally both should be examined in tandem.

But the quote above - 'HELLO': 60-year-olds (and over) racing 115K against Joe Fenlon, Timmy Barry, and the other elite A1s, averaging 40kph over 115K??

Can you imagine the uproar if it was proposed that all the under-age would race in one race - under-12s against u-16s - and give a few consolation medals to the u-12s and 14s?

The Masters concept is based on respect and status for each age cohort, recognizing that, relatively speaking, they are similar quality athletes but with the disadvantage of age (as we recognized in U-23, Junior, under-age categories, etc).

And, if the proposal above went ahead, would each age cohort winner be recognized as a 'national champion' by CI - i.e. would it be recognized as a national title? If so, it would be open to all sorts of abuse - I can see over 50s and 60s encouraging a few strong over 40 friends/club-mates to hang back and ride domestique, etc.

Regarding your call for a group to sit on a commission and for the commission to be proposed at next AGM:

I'd be prepared to contribute, but would not waste my time in a talking-shop with over a year's time frame. Setting up a commission in Nov. would mean bringing proposals to the AGM in Nov. 2014, for implementation in the 2015 season! Hey Man, we are in a hurry - we are getting OLD - time is running out!

Also, I just wouldn't be interested on bringing forward proposals that just tweeked the 'Vets' mentality. As I said above, the basis of the Masters concept is respect and status for the aging cohorts.

I think good people for such a group might be drawn from IVCA. They, at least, understand and respect the Masters idea and know how it works, and they are highly efficient.

Best of luck with the grading issue anyway,

High Nellie

The Crunch wrote: »

My thoughts:-
Separate medals at the vets champs RR in five year age groups but only one jersey - for the first rider over the line!

As I said in previous post:

'HELLO': 60-year-olds (and over) racing 115K against Joe Fenlon, Timmy Barry, and the other elite A1s, averaging 40kph over 115K??

Chips Lovell

Before I'd go changing the women's grading, I'd consult the women first.

Because I know a fair few women racers who wouldn't be keen on introducing handicapping in open races.

There's a lot of women's leagues now on midweek that cater for newcomers. At the moment, there's only around 10 open races a year, six in the Women's National League and four in the Trek Classic League. Aside from the nationals, these are the only one's that aren't handicapped and where you are guaranteed a straight up race against your peers.

wav1

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Before I'd go changing the women's grading, I'd consult the women first.

Because I know a fair few women racers who wouldn't be keen on introducing handicapping in open races.

There's a lot of women's leagues now on midweek that cater for newcomers. At the moment, there's only around 10 open races a year, six in the Women's National League and four in the Trek Classic League. Aside from the nationals, these are the only one's that aren't handicapped and where you are guaranteed a straight up race against your peers.

The woman have a rep at this review table,someone who is well tuned in their needs.She has brought forward proposals regarding same and i dont think anybody has any problems with what she has proposed.

godihatedehills

wav1 wrote: »

The woman have a rep at this review table,someone who is well tuned in their needs.She has brought forward proposals regarding same and i dont think anybody has any problems with what she has proposed.

Proposals to handicap National League races? I definitely don't think that's the right way to go.

wav1

godihatedehills wrote: »

Proposals to handicap National League races? I'd definitely don't think that's the right way to go.

I can assure you that never came in to it.It was another poster that suggested that here.

Beasty

High Nellie wrote: »

Regarding your call for a group to sit on a commission and for the commission to be proposed at next AGM:

I'd be prepared to contribute, but would not waste my time in a talking-shop with over a year's time frame. Setting up a commission in Nov. would mean bringing proposals to the AGM in Nov. 2014, for implementation in the 2015 season! Hey Man, we are in a hurry - we are getting OLD - time is running out!

Also, I just wouldn't be interested on bringing forward proposals that just tweeked the 'Vets' mentality. As I said above, the basis of the Masters concept is respect and status for the aging cohorts.

I think good people for such a group might be drawn from IVCA. They, at least, understand and respect the Masters idea and know how it works, and they are highly efficient.

There's nothing to stop a few of us getting together over the next few weeks and coming up with more definitive proposals (including a Vets Commission) for this year's AGM that could be effective for 2014. That's pretty much what happened with the Master's proposal a couple of years ago

Pulling together a "structure" for national and provincial championships will probably be the easy bit - it's also a matter of getting the clubs to provide additional racing opportunities (based on whatever criteria is considered appropriate), particularly in Munster and Connaught where there appears limited opportunities for "Masters" at present

onimpulse

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Before I'd go changing the women's grading, I'd consult the women first.

Because I know a fair few women racers who wouldn't be keen on introducing handicapping in open races.

There's a lot of women's leagues now on midweek that cater for newcomers. At the moment, there's only around 10 open races a year, six in the Women's National League and four in the Trek Classic League. Aside from the nationals, these are the only one's that aren't handicapped and where you are guaranteed a straight up race against your peers.

Not the case that there are only 10 races a year outside the mid week leagues which aren't graded. From memory I think I've done 6 races outside Women's league & Classic league, (not including Slane, which I didn't do & Wexford next weekend).

Perhaps it might be an idea to set up a beginners road race league where beginners get a handicap? ( although I thought that's what the Women's league really was, with stronger Women competing in the Classic league).

I think you'll find a lot of Women looking for some kind of grading - I'm not sure what the answer is but as it is, it doesn't encourage newcomers, and a 30 min race around Corkage park doesn't get anyone ready for racing against the big names.

High Nellie

National Veterans’ Time Trial Championships - 29 entries. How easy would it be to have this as a Masters event?

Beasty

High Nellie wrote: »

National Veterans’ Time Trial Championships - 29 entries. How easy would it be to have this as a Masters event?

I presume you mean run it in 5 or 10 year age groups - Can't see there would be that much more involved. It would encourage a lot more riders in the older categories to turn up, so I guess you could expect significant more than 29 across the categories

FWIW. I took part in the IVCA Age Championships today - it was handicapped based on age with anyone aged 80 or over (we have one!) getting 50 mins or so over those in the 40-44 Group (over 80km)

A 75 year old won it by getting on for 5 mins. The scratch group never got anywhere near the 70+ guys (they were probably 10-15 mins behind the winner). Despite that the pace was savage with KOMs being set on the Green Sheds circuit (which is a popular circuit for open races - A lot of A+ and A1s regularly race that course)

What it highlighted to me is the quality there is across the board in the vets category, but I wonder how appropriate it is to have 40 year olds racing against 80 year olds. I think the IVCA need to look at this, and if CI start looking at facilitating more "Masters" races they perhaps need to consider breaking it down - maybe 40-49 become the M1s, 50-59 the M2s, 60-69 M3s, etc with separate races for each age group (and races getting shorter as the years advance)

onimpulse

wav1 wrote: »

I can assure you that never came in to it.It was another poster that suggested that here.

Lads, I'm more than a little disappointed by the condescending attitude shown in response to my post. To answer the points you have made... I am a woman, I raced national league, classic league & various other races which weren't either through the summer.

While you might have a rep who thinks handicaps aren't the way to go, I can assure you - plenty of women think they are! Not in classic league, but certainly in some races!

I heard A1 & A2 men complain about A+'s turning up at races, Women face this in every race - every one of us, including the girl turning up for her first race - how many A4's would continue racing if they faced Rapha Condor or Polygon sweet nice guys in every race?

Add to that, our bunches are smaller, the lads have the luxury of being able to start at the front on a hill (if that's their weekness) & drift back, Women have to stay with it - there is very little room to be off the pace.

Please tell me how Women's cycling is going to grow when the new girls get hammered & dropped within a few km - why would they keep coming back?

fago

Should there be points given to the first 3 unplaced A3s in handicapped races.

For example this weekend in Connacht there was a much larger and stronger A1/2/A+ bunch which as you would expect mopped up the prizes.

Racing that as A3 is probably tougher than most exclusively A3 races.