Michael Noonan: property investment "safe haven for pensions"

Dostoevsky

This breaks my heart. Will we, the Irish people, as a community ever learn? We have so much going for us, yet so very little at the same time.

RTÉ's Seán Whelan enthusiastically reported - Signs of renewed interest in property investment have been confirmed - on the News at One yesterday than Noonan was promoting REIT (Real Estate Investment Trust), where people invest in a company which then invests in property. A "new way of investing in property" according to Whelan. Indeed. From now on I'll be wary of Whelan's reports. He's patently "on board" when it comes to promoting the next boom.

Michael Noonan claimed (from the above link) - and I'm sure I wasn't the only dumbfounded person listening to this - that REIT property investments "attract a safe haven for pensions' investment" (1min 55 sec). Breathtaking. Property a "safe haven"? And this is the person charged with the finances of the Irish state? God save Ireland.

Noonan continued: "There's a huge overhang in Ireland as you know and I thought it would stimulate the property market and provide another vehicle for investors who want to invest in Irish property"

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One, why are our taxes being used to stimulate a market which remains ridiculously overvalued, particularly in Dublin? Who benefits from this intervention to bail out private enterprise, because it certainly isn't people who are waiting to buy (and whose taxes are already being used to subsidise the gambling of property investors).

Two, why is this state intervening in the free market to prop up and subsidise capitalist investors with our taxes?

Three, the sheer horror of an Irish Minister for Finance claiming, a mere four years after the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank, that property investment is a "safe haven" for pension funds makes me speechless.

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Is there any chance that the profession known as journalists could leave the pub for a moment and give Michael Noonan and his advisors in the Department of Finance an inquisition over this new policy of this state? Where is Sinn Féin? Fianna Fáil? Nobody is seizing on the idiocy that is this policy, and the many tens of thousands of Irish people who will never be able to buy a home because this state interferes in the property market to keep prices artificially high and beyond their reach, thereby rewarding gamblers and punishing people who did not gamble on property during the boom. As a PAYE worker it's slowly seeping in that we are, in fact, living in an incredibly right-wing state.

OneArt

I'm convinced this Noonan individual doesn't actually have a brain.

jimgoose

For the last time: Politicians, leave the fucken' thing alone!! We're unlikely to emerge from another such hames intact as a society. :mad:

There is an awful lot of property around the country that would be a very good investment at the moment.

Prices have fallen massively and in a lot of case won't fall anymore and rents are still high and even on the rise again. Now is the time to be investing in property not during the boom.

Christ the Redeemer

Could be worse. In yankestan a safe retirement investment is weapons and security.

Old peoples retirement funds are literally ruining the world.

crusher000

The cartel of professions and the merry go round of Ireland Inc keeps on turning. Nothing will happen, don't expect anything to happen regarding politicians,bankers and developers and leave all your hopes on the floor. Any hopes of they're ever being a better Ireland for the working class. We have been heranged into a corner by the elete of this country and here we shall die.

SEPT 23 1989

This could be such a great country if it was not for the parasite cartel that runs it

ScumLord

Lauren Bumpy Midget wrote: »

There is an awful lot of property around the country that would be a very good investment at the moment.

I don't know about that, there are a lot of rotting houses. I could see this investment club ending up paying to own wrecked houses that would cost more to bring up to a livable space than just starting from scratch with a new house.

It's probably another con job were ordinary people give all their money to investment bankers who squander it on **** and use the profits to mock the investors with champagne while on holiday in south of France.

jimgoose

ScumLord wrote: »

...It's probably another con job were ordinary people give all their money to investment bankers who squander it on **** and use the profits to mock the investors with champagne while on holiday in south of France.

But... but don't you know what that means?? The Economy is working again!! Praise Bertie, I'm off to order a Bentley! :cool:

Augmerson

crusher000 wrote: »

The cartel of professions and the merry go round of Ireland Inc keeps on turning. Nothing will happen, don't expect anything to happen regarding politicians,bankers and developers and leave all your hopes on the floor. Any hopes of they're ever being a better Ireland for the working class. We have been heranged into a corner by the elete of this country and here we shall die.

This sounds absolutely horrific and probably true.

squod

Uncle Fester says buy shares in property derivatives. This is the lad who is pissing tens of billions up against the wall and aiding mass fraud.

He's some kind of fuhken mutherfuhker.

ScumLord

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know about that, there are a lot of rotting houses. I could see this investment club ending up paying to own wrecked houses that would cost more to bring up to a livable space than just starting from scratch with a new house.

I've been following a lot on city center stuff lately (cork and galway). Fairly new apartments, selling for small enough money, great locations so easy to rent and rents very high compared to the purchase price. actually slightly increasing again after the dip a while back. A lot are even for sale with sitting tenants.

Also a lot have almost certainly hit rock bottom, modern city centre apartments are just not going to drop much lower than they have already.

This would be more of a personal investment level stuff though rather than big large scale investments but the point still stands that there is money to be made in property at the moment and I will be getting involved as soon as funds allow it.

limitedIQ

well if some guys in government who know when NAMA is going to see some properties cheap what to get in on the action they just invest in the REIT, NAMA then sells the properties cheap (hotels, whole apartment blocks, etc) the REIT snaps them up.

according to wikipdia:
The purpose of this designation is to reduce or eliminate corporate tax, thus avoiding double taxation of owner income. In return, REITs are required to distribute at least 90% of their taxable income into the hands of investors.

To me, this means a lot of investment managers will pick up properties on the cheap from NAMA, their investors get their dividends and the government get F' all tax from the sale.

Blisterman

The easiest way to make money is to invest other people's.

If you make a gain, you get paid. If you make a loss you get paid.

tin79

Anyone else remember when AH was fun and had good threads?

These type of threads are really getting painfully dull.

And before someone else says it: yes yes I know i dont have to read them if i dont want to but even the thought of their existence seems to bother me.

Isnt there a politics forum for this stuff?

Wompa1

Lauren Bumpy Midget wrote: »

I've been following a lot on city center stuff lately (cork and galway). Fairly new apartments, selling for small enough money, great locations so easy to rent and rents very high compared to the purchase price. actually slightly increasing again after the dip a while back. A lot are even for sale with sitting tenants.

Also a lot have almost certainly hit rock bottom, modern city centre apartments are just not going to drop much lower than they have already.

This would be more of a personal investment level stuff though rather than big large scale investments but the point still stands that there is money to be made in property at the moment and I will be getting involved as soon as funds allow it.

Galway city is cursed with poorly built houses and apartments from during the boom years. Dun na Coiribe, Cill Ard, Clos Ard, Gort na Glaise etc. etc. are cheapily built and an awful investment. If you want a decent apartment in the city you'd have to still buy for 170k+ and with the volatile nature of the economy at the moment and the possibility that rent could fall further in the coming years, you would be taking a big risk.

If you get students in with lower rent that you envisioned, which means you are just about paying off your mortgage each month and then on top of that you are paying for repairs and maintenance plus the property tax every year. It's not a good investment.

Wompa1

Wompa1 wrote: »

Galway city is cursed with poorly built houses and apartments from during the boom years. Dun na Coiribe, Cill Ard, Clos Ard, Gort na Glaise etc. etc. are cheapily built and an awful investment. If you want a decent apartment in the city you'd have to still buy for 170k+ and with the volatile nature of the economy at the moment and the possibility that rent could fall further in the coming years, you would be taking a big risk.

If you get students in with lower rent that you envisioned, which means you are just about paying off your mortgage each month and then on top of that you are paying for repairs and maintenance plus the property tax every year. It's not a good investment.

You obviously dont follow things as closely as I do or look at the allsop auction prices not just the daft prices.

There are some real bargins out there, for instance a few years old 2 bed city centre apartment in right in Cork city centre for 112k. I'd have bought it instantly if I had the money either to live in or rent out.

On the allsop site I've seen plenty of stuff sold in Galway the 65k to 90k range, a lot with sitting tenants and monthly rent in the 850 to 1k range. Some of these would be slightly older properties so there would be some maintenance (which can be offset against income tax) and slightly outside the city centre but sill stuff in walking distance to the university etc

In my experience Dun na Coiribe are not poorly built.

City centre apartments will not fall much more if at all and as I said rents are on the rise with totally contradicts your point. The interest rates on savings accounts etc in banks are terrible and what you do make is destroyed with DIRT. Property is a much better investment than leaving all your money sitting in a bank (obviously its a good idea to keep some money in reserve).

noodler

How are the poll and subject of the thread topic related?

These REITs, as I understand them, will be primarily for foreign investors in Irish property.

Only yesterday the IDA were saying there isn't enough office space in Dublin for the MNCs they are trying to attract.

We have loads of supply but alot of it is not in demand.

Cody Pomeray

No

Dostoevsky wrote: »

RTÉ's Seán Whelan enthusiastically reported - Signs of renewed interest in property investment have been confirmed - on the News at One yesterday than Noonan was promoting REIT (Real Estate Investment Trust), where people invest in a company which then invests in property. A "new way of investing in property" according to Whelan. Indeed. From now on I'll be wary of Whelan's reports. He's patently "on board" when it comes to promoting the next boom.

What's the problem here?

If we must endure a capitalist society, then the practical reality is that we have no choice but to wish for an improvement in our banks' asset values at this time, and this necessarily means an increase in property values.

The kick is that if we don't wish for higher property values, we just hand the money over to the banks via a new recapitalisation.

Even the most stupid Irish banks never lose.

theUbiq

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

What's the problem here?

If we must endure a capitalist society, then the practical reality is that we have no choice but to wish for an improvement in our banks' asset values at this time, and this necessarily means an increase in property values.

The kick is that if we don't wish for higher property values, we just hand the money over to the banks via a new recapitalisation.

Even the most stupid Irish banks never lose.

Vested interest here... watch out.

Wompa1

Lauren Bumpy Midget wrote: »

You obviously dont follow things as closely as I do or look at the allsop auction prices not just the daft prices.

There are some real bargins out there, for instance a few years old 2 bed city centre apartment in right in the cnetre of the city for 112k. I'd have bought it instantly if I had the money either to live in or rent out.

On the allsop site I've seen plenty of stuff sold in Galway the 65k to 90k range, a lot with sitting tenants and monthly rent in the 850 to 1k range. Some of these would be slightly older properties so there would be some maintenance (which can be offset against income tax) and slightly outside the city centre but sill stuff in walking distance to the university etc

In my experience Dun na Coiribe are not poorly built.

City centre apartments will not fall much more if at all and as I said rents are on the rise with totally contradicts your point. The interest rates on savings accounts etc in banks are terrible and what you do make is destroyed with DIRT. Property is a much better investment than leaving all your money sitting in a bank (obviously its a good idea to keep some money in reserve).

What makes you think the price of rent will not fall? Have you lived in Dun na Coiribe? They are sh1tty apartments, everything about them is cheap, even when they were new the walls with moss over with the dampness. Which is the major problem with most of the places in Galway. I lived in 8 different rental properties in the city. 1 of which was very well built. It's a mix of old, damp, cold apartment with rot through out and new cheapily built, damp apartments with cheap appliances, cheap fixtures, those cheap sh1tty floors etc.

The unemployment rate in Galway was over 9% before the recession. The vast majority of the jobs are on the one side of the city. Summer rentals tapered off years ago. 9 months of student rental, minus the cost of up keep, minus the cost of property tax and the pain in the arse of dealing with tennants...you'd want to be buying a very nice place in a great location to ensure you can charge the top rate and possibly let it for the summer.

All that said. I might buy in the city in a couple of years time, I believe the prices will fall further. But I will not buy until I can pay for 75% of the cost of the place up front.

suicide_circus

Tomorrows headline:

"Kenny advocates the building of decking and the consumption of breakfast rolls."

Uriel.

No

feck, voted yes by mistake, thanks to some weird auto scrolling on my machine..

poll ruined already :P:D:o:(

Celly Smunt

Its sunny out,**** the economy for the next few weeks.Take a break from the mundane.

Radiosonde

Here we go again...

Cody Pomeray

No

theUbiq wrote: »

Vested interest here... watch out.

How do I have a vested interest exactly?

If criticizing the banks is a vested interest, then yes, maybe that counts.

But people should be careful in what they wish for. If property values fall, then the state loses money it has already handed over to the banks (for nothing in return, in some cases) AND the banks are in danger of breaching their capital ratios, which means another bank bailout if property prices don't recover.

The system inherently favours the banks. They Irish banks literally cannot lose, but we can lose (even more).

gurramok

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

What's the problem here?.

You sound like another guy called later 11 or was it later12 who promoted the same idea, all to the detriment of the worker.

Where is the call to instead invest money in industry to provide employment?

Cody Pomeray

No

gurramok wrote: »

You sound like another guy called later 11 or was it later12 who promoted the same idea, all to the detriment of the worker.

Where is the call to instead invest money in industry to provide employment?

I agree. But it is more important to ask where that call isn't coming from

Answer: Germany, and the EU Commission.

I presume we all want more jobs, I'm criticizing the choices we are left with. I'm sorry people dislike the fact that we only have two choices, but that's what we have stupidly decided we want. We choose this model or else we don't do anything about it.

KyussBishop

Would be interesting to see actual statistics and analysis, on the banks ability to survive 1: the inevitability that many people will be unable to repay mortgages, 2: the inability to push another housing bubble without destroying even more of the economy, and 3: the ability to survive potentially a full decade of continued stagnation.

We already know they can't survive a criminal investigation - which could potentially invalidate a lot of fraudulent mortgages, bringing on a capital crisis - but can they even survive now, as they are, with adequate capital ratios if Europe doesn't enact recovery policies (through stimulus)?

If we are in the ridiculous situation of resorting to another property bubble to keep things propped up, then I could easily see the last 5 years of trying to stick with the Euro, amount to nothing if the banks collapse again.

thomasm

Lauren Bumpy Midget wrote: »

There is an awful lot of property around the country that would be a very good investment at the moment.

Prices have fallen massively and in a lot of case won't fall anymore and rents are still high and even on the rise again. Now is the time to be investing in property not during the boom.

There are some cracking good deals out there. Complex near me consisting of a spar, doctors surgery, ladbrokes and off licence plus 12 apts overhead sold for 554k recently with a rental income of 130k pa.

washman3

thomasm wrote: »

There are some cracking good deals out there. Complex near me consisting of a spar, doctors surgery, ladbrokes and off licence plus 12 apts overhead sold for 554k recently with a rental income of 130k pa.

So why did the previous owner sell.?? :D

IM0

well ride me sideways Ive heard everything now, any credibility you had [and there was lots to be fair] you have just lost

what the jesus h ****etry

Archeron

jimgoose wrote: »

But... but don't you know what that means?? The Economy is working again!! Praise Bertie, I'm off to order a Bentley! :cool:

Pick me one up as well will ya, and a side order of faberge eggs. Nice one.

thomasm

thomasm wrote: »

There are some cracking good deals out there. Complex near me consisting of a spar, doctors surgery, ladbrokes and off licence plus 12 apts overhead sold for 554k recently with a rental income of 130k pa.

Exactly an absolute steal and there is plenty of deals like this around. I saw a place for 150k in cork recently with a rent roll of 40k per year

Serious money to be made nowadays if you are wise to what's going on and have some money to invest.

washman3 wrote: »

So why did the previous owner sell.?? :D

Because it was the bank selling it after repossessing it you can be guaranteed!