Poorly produced/mastered albums.

Jacks Smirking Revenge

Now this has been said to death but I was listening to Death Magnetic through a good set of earphones. It was painful. The production on that album is an abomination. It's distorted, fuzzy and just plain un-listenable.


Anyone have any other examples of badly produced/mastered albums (albums with poor sound quality)?

oldscoil

And justice for all.... Bit of an obvious jab perhaps

happyoutscan

Reek of Putrefaction from Carcass is terribly produced but still a classic in the genre, same with Symphonies of Sickness. I should know loads more but they're not coming into my head. Always thought Ride the Lightning sounded a bit iffy, obviously AJFA too.

DublinWriter

They're more AOR/MOR rock, but GTR's 1986 LP sounds like it was recorded off a medium-wave radio station. The CD sounds equally bad.

Clandestine

Mixed too low/muddy sound

Lawrence1895

Darkthrone's 'Transsilvanian Hunger' sounds a bit week as well, but I heard a few times, it's supposed to be like that

nyarlothothep

On the subject of DM the guitars have a very dry, scratchy, dull sound and they use it on all the songs, probably because they wanted to sound like a garage band recording their first demo. The guitar sound and its lack of variation is one the most offputting things about that album.

Bad production as on Transylvanian Hunger is not without its charms, one thing I dislike about modern metal is the uniform, over produced sound nearly every band has, it's standardised, corporate rock without any of the humanity that inheres in less than perfect production.

Lawrence1895

nyarlothothep wrote: »

On the subject of DM the guitars have a very dry, scratchy, dull sound and they use it on all the songs, probably because they wanted to sound like a garage band recording their first demo. The guitar sound and its lack of variation is one the most offputting things about that album.

Bad production as on Transylvanian Hunger is not without its charms, one thing I dislike about modern metal is the uniform, over produced sound nearly every band has, it's standardised, corporate rock without any of the humanity that inheres in less than perfect production.

Did you ever have a listen to Beherit's 'The oath of black blood'? Now, that's a charming one as well

Jacks Smirking Revenge

Almost forgot about And justice for all....
That album sounds cheap and very flat.

Now I'm straying off metal quite a bit here but RHCP's Californication is another offender. Way too loud, sounds a bit distorted at times and again, very flat.

Hallyington

Nearly any black metal songs are unbearable on headphones.

seachto7

Most of the old Testament stuff just sounds really dated now.

Kersh

Morbid Angels "Blessed are the sick" always sounded a bit off.

xtradel

Iron Maidens "No Prayer for the Dying" sounds like it was recorded live thru 1 microphone....although i think they wanted a stripped back album after SSOASS.

Angron

Quite a lot of early Black Metal has terrible production, mainly due to a lack of decent equipment. Some newer BM bands tend to copy that crappy quality, just to retain the feeling for the old stuff or something.

120_Minutes

Tool's Undertow. The only Tool album i dont listen to regularly. I hate the production on it, always have.

Mr. CooL ICE

Agree with testament, and loads of early thrash and death metal. Exodus, Possessed, Death etc had some albums that I just cannot listen to.


On the flip side, Below The Lights by Enslaved isn't badly produced, but it has an insanely raw and unpolished production that I absolutely love. Probably my favourite album, production-wise

mloc123

Sepultura - Morbid Visions is pretty bad.. the story that they didn't even tune the guitars for recording.

Hallyington

Angron wrote: »

Quite a lot of early Black Metal has terrible production, mainly due to a lack of decent equipment. Some newer BM bands tend to copy that crappy quality, just to retain the feeling for the old stuff or something.

I always assumed they did it on purpose to "get that kvlt sound".

I think Filosfems vocals were recorded with the worst mic Varg could find, seems ridiculous but still a good album.

blastman

At War With Satan by Venom. A prototype for the ....And Justice For All mix template, it sounds horribly weedy and probably ruined their chance of following on from the momentum built up by Black Metal and really breaking big.

SilverScreen

Nattens Madrigal by Ulver springs to mind. I like the raw sound of a lot of black metal records, including their debut Bergtatt, but the production on Nattens Madrigal sounds way off. Guitars are panned too hard left and right and the mix is all over the shop. It takes a litttle bit of enjoyment away from what is otherwise a solid album.

RayCon

Warrior Soul : Last Decade Dead Century - a superb album that I always listen to wondering how much more awesome it would have been with better production. "Charlies out of prison" is almost ruined by muddiness ...

Angron

Hallyington wrote: »

I always assumed they did it on purpose to "get that kvlt sound".

I think Filosfems vocals were recorded with the worst mic Varg could find, seems ridiculous but still a good album.

Yeah, but he probably did have a terrible mic, and it could have been all he could get, he was in prison at the time.

SilverScreen

Angron wrote: »

Yeah, but he probably did have a terrible mic, and it could have been all he could get, he was in prison at the time.

The album was actually recorded in 1993 before he went to prison, it wasn't released until 1996. The reason he ended up with a cheap microphone was because he asked the studio engineer to get the worst microphone he could find and he came back with a cheap headset with a mic attached. He also used a tiny amp in the studio to make the guitars sound really lo-fi.

Angron

Oh right, the 96 thing had me thinking it was one of the ones he did in prison.

Dermighty

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote: »

Almost forgot about And justice for all....
That album sounds cheap and very flat.

Now I'm straying off metal quite a bit here but RHCP's Californication is another offender. Way too loud, sounds a bit distorted at times and again, very flat.

Hetfield said in an interview that they deliberately changed there sound compared to master of puppets and that they recorded it with massive amps (or whatever they are called) with pillows or matresses tied to them to change the sound.

IIRC the album was recorded without any bass guitar whatsoever hence why it sounds flat.

My favourite Metallica album by far as it happens

120_Minutes

Dermighty wrote: »

Hetfield said in an interview that they deliberately changed there sound compared to master of puppets and that they recorded it with massive amps (or whatever they are called) with pillows or matresses tied to them to change the sound.

IIRC the album was recorded without any bass guitar whatsoever hence why it sounds flat.

My favourite Metallica album by far as it happens

the bass is there, its just mixed so low you cant hear it.

I recently read rex brown's (pantera) book, and theres a passage where metallica came through texas before justice came out and lars was hanging with the guys with the rough mix of the album which they played in lars car saying "check it out, we're turning down the bass to **** with jason!"

jack presley

What happens at the mastering stage? What does good/bad mastering of an album mean?

Ruudi_Mentari

mloc123 wrote: »

Sepultura - Morbid Visions is pretty bad.. the story that they didn't even tune the guitars for recording.

Yeah that was poor... had its moments But Sepultura's songwriting was naive, too up til Beneath the Remains.

And that album was the tail end of the eighties when CDs and digital recording came along and you think of other masterpieces of that year or thereabouts when there was Kreator's Coma of Souls and of course South of Heaven, too

a revoution in quality and every 80s metal album i ever liked up to the first digital recordings sound like crap, to me now and remastering doesn't help. all that thrashing of cymbals didnt hold up well and albums would lack depth, and clarity but I am hoping; praying that Killing Technology and Dimension Hatröss are retrievable! Might even set about trying it myself.

120_Minutes

jack presley wrote: »

What happens at the mastering stage? What does good/bad mastering of an album mean?

Mastering can affect the overall level of the album, by using various techniques. It can also add in some overall EQ if it's lacking.

What a good mastering engineer is trying to to is to maintain a good dynamic range (the quiet bits are quiet and the loud bits are loud) while still having a nice healthy overall level on the album. A good example of this is "The Patient" from Tool's Lateralus album (2001). This album has deservedly won audio engineering awards. The song starts very quietly but when it kicks in, it kicks in. Many newer albums will have a quiet intro almost as loud as the heavy parts!

In recent years with bands competing to be heard whats known as the "loudness war" has become more popular, with the school of thought that if you're louder than everyone else you'll be noticed quicker. Where this has gone wrong is that back in the day, when everything was mixed and mastered to tape if you recorded to tape at a "hot" (high) level the sound would distort in a way that was pleasing to the ear (some would call this vintage sounding)

When the digital revolution happened this wasnt possible, if you maxed out your recording levels you hit a brick wall (in fact in the industry its now known as brickwalling) and the resulting sound wasnt pleasing to the ear. Albums were mixed at near maximum levels leaving the mastering engineer nothing to work with, but still being told by the band/producer/record company to "make it louder".....and the mastering engineer wants to get paid doesnt he?

To best illustrate my point as to how much mastering has changed over the years, take a CD in your collection thats 20 years old or older, not a reissue or remaster and listen to it at a good volume. Now, pop in a CD from the last 5 years and dont touch the volume.....it's a lot louder isnt it?

The best recent example of it I can give is the remastered reissue of RATM's debut. Play "Killing in the name" from the original album and then play the reissue.... it's louder, clearer, brighter and overall nicer (and i bet you never had a problem with the original, it's a brilliantly recorded album)

Thats what mastering does.

Source: I'm an ex sound engineer.

Jacks Smirking Revenge

Black Sabbaths latest "13" has been affected by that.
There's quite a bit of audible distortion on that album.

Dermighty

Alice in chains album from a couple of years ago, black turns to blue or whatever or the name is, very like death magnetic, hurts the ears.

waking dreams

Slayer's Divine Intervention is pretty badly produced too. And the drumming is very sloppy in places. Still a great album though.

stefan idiot jones

Guns n Posers Live $*#@ Like A Suicide was allegedly such a shyte production, they 'made' it into a live performance.

ush

Black Sabbath - Dehumanizer

Wrongway1985

Garbages latest effort suffered from being annoyingly loud and unlistenable shame cause there was elements of decent tunes on there,

Mastodon The Hunter not sure why vocals seemed to be brought to the forefront in the mix drowning out the guitars in places although at least its very much listenable.

Mushy

120_Minutes wrote: »

Mastering can affect the overall level of the album, by using various techniques. It can also add in some overall EQ if it's lacking.

What a good mastering engineer is trying to to is to maintain a good dynamic range (the quiet bits are quiet and the loud bits are loud) while still having a nice healthy overall level on the album. A good example of this is "The Patient" from Tool's Lateralus album (2001). This album has deservedly won audio engineering awards. The song starts very quietly but when it kicks in, it kicks in. Many newer albums will have a quiet intro almost as loud as the heavy parts!

In recent years with bands competing to be heard whats known as the "loudness war" has become more popular, with the school of thought that if you're louder than everyone else you'll be noticed quicker. Where this has gone wrong is that back in the day, when everything was mixed and mastered to tape if you recorded to tape at a "hot" (high) level the sound would distort in a way that was pleasing to the ear (some would call this vintage sounding)

When the digital revolution happened this wasnt possible, if you maxed out your recording levels you hit a brick wall (in fact in the industry its now known as brickwalling) and the resulting sound wasnt pleasing to the ear. Albums were mixed at near maximum levels leaving the mastering engineer nothing to work with, but still being told by the band/producer/record company to "make it louder".....and the mastering engineer wants to get paid doesnt he?

To best illustrate my point as to how much mastering has changed over the years, take a CD in your collection thats 20 years old or older, not a reissue or remaster and listen to it at a good volume. Now, pop in a CD from the last 5 years and dont touch the volume.....it's a lot louder isnt it?

The best recent example of it I can give is the remastered reissue of RATM's debut. Play "Killing in the name" from the original album and then play the reissue.... it's louder, clearer, brighter and overall nicer (and i bet you never had a problem with the original, it's a brilliantly recorded album)

Thats what mastering does.

Source: I'm an ex sound engineer.

Reading this makes me fully sure that the new QOTSA record is way too loud. I was listening to Lateral us, then switched to Like Clockwork.....absolutely no need for it to be so loud. Doesn't make an album better.

Jacks Smirking Revenge

Mushy wrote: »

Reading this makes me fully sure that the new QOTSA record is way too loud. I was listening to Lateral us, then switched to Like Clockwork.....absolutely no need for it to be so loud. Doesn't make an album better.

True.
I looked at the waveform for My God is the Sun in audacity and it was like a solid brick!

horseburger

120_Minutes wrote: »

Mastering can affect the overall level of the album, by using various techniques. It can also add in some overall EQ if it's lacking.



To best illustrate my point as to how much mastering has changed over the years, take a CD in your collection thats 20 years old or older, not a reissue or remaster and listen to it at a good volume. Now, pop in a CD from the last 5 years and dont touch the volume.....it's a lot louder isnt it?

The best recent example of it I can give is the remastered reissue of RATM's debut. Play "Killing in the name" from the original album and then play the reissue.... it's louder, clearer, brighter and overall nicer (and i bet you never had a problem with the original, it's a brilliantly recorded album)

Thats what mastering does.

Source: I'm an ex sound engineer.

I noticed that some years ago when I played the cd I have of Reign in Blood that was available 20 years ago, the version available before it was remastered, and then when I played Diablos In Musica, and it was much louder. The Reign in Blood cd sounded very flat in comparison.

I have some older Public Enemy cds, including Fear of a Black Planet and the volume on them is lower than on newer cds and sound a bit flat. It's quite annoying that when I copied it for my ipod, the lower volume is very evident.

Similarly The Fall cds I have on the Beggars Banquet label seem to be lower in volume than the newer reissues of their older albums.

For example the 458489 A Sides cd

I was wondering has anyone here got those same Fall Beggars Banquet cds and noticed the same thing?

The reason I ask is that The Wonderful and Frightening World of The Fall was reissued in 2010 as a 4cd Omnibus Edition and This Nations Saving Grace in 2011 as a 3cd Omnibus edition.

I was wondering, are these remastered and if they sound better?

When I was looking at it in a shop recently, I didn't see it mentioned on the box whether or not they have been remastered. Usually on reissues of older albums, if they are remastered, it would be emphasised.

SilverScreen

horseburger wrote: »

I noticed that some years ago when I played the cd I have of Reign in Blood that was available 20 years ago, the version available before it was remastered, and then when I played Diablos In Musica, and it was much louder. The Reign in Blood cd sounded very flat in comparison.

I have some older Public Enemy cds, including Fear of a Black Planet and the volume on them is lower than on newer cds and sound a bit flat. It's quite annoying that when I copied it for my ipod, the lower volume is very evident.

Similarly The Fall cds I have on the Beggars Banquet label seem to be lower in volume than the newer reissues of their older albums.

For example the 458489 A Sides cd

I was wondering has anyone here got those same Fall Beggars Banquet cds and noticed the same thing?

The reason I ask is that The Wonderful and Frightening World of The Fall was reissued in 2010 as a 4cd Omnibus Edition and This Nations Saving Grace in 2011 as a 3cd Omnibus edition.

I was wondering, are these remastered and if they sound better?

When I was looking at it in a shop recently, I didn't see it mentioned on the box whether or not they have been remastered. Usually on reissues of older albums, if they are remastered, it would be emphasised.

I'd steer clear of remasters when possible. The remasters being louder is not a good thing, it just means that it's more compressed and there's less dynamic range. In a lot of cases you will get clipping and distortion which will effect the sound quality. Although there exceptions where the original sounds worse than the remasters it's usually best to stick with the originals when possible.

bnt

No mention of Rush's Vapor Trails (2001)? Overcooked during tracking, mixing and mastering, it seemed. It's just undergone a full remix/remaster by David Bottrill, who's worked with King Crimson, Muse, and Tool (but not Undertow as mentioned above). I can't wait - the album has some cracking songs struggling to breath under the layers of distorted mush.

horseburger

SilverScreen wrote: »

I'd steer clear of remasters when possible. The remasters being louder is not a good thing, it just means that it's more compressed and there's less dynamic range. In a lot of cases you will get clipping and distortion which will effect the sound quality. Although there exceptions where the original sounds worse than the remasters it's usually best to stick with the originals when possible.

Hi SilverScreen,

thanks for your reply.

I can understand how the original versions of older albums, on the original vinyl records issued when the album was first released sound fine.

but its when these albums, which were not originally released on cd as it wasn't around at the time, and then were first issued on cd, around the late 80s and early 90s, that I notice how flat they can sound.

An example would be that before Judas Priest reissued their albums in 2001, I had bought some of the cd versions and I also had, around that time, picked up some of the records of the albums second hand, and the flatness of the cd is very noticeable, with a softer sound.

I felt this was very evident on the Killing Machine/Hell Bent For Leather cd and I much preferred the sound off Sin After Sin on the second hand vinyl I got, dating from when it was first released, compared to the cd.

I think the reissues of these albums from 2001 in that case, sounded better than the earlier cd editions.

Are you familiar with those Fall albums?

I'd be interested if anyone here has those two box sets and what they think of the sound.

SilverScreen

A lot of early CD masters weren't that great either, but I've never had any real issues with the quality of original CDs from the late 80's or early 90's. The only Fall albums I have are Hex Education Hour and This Nation's Saving Grace, they're mp3 copies though if that helps in any way. They're definitely from a remastered copy but I'm not sure what year, they do sound a bit too loud and 'hard' though.

Another badly mastered album that springs to mind is Blackwater Park by Opeth. My copy is the 2006 Sony reissue, however it doesn't say whether it was remastered or not so I don't know if it sounds the same as the original issue. Don't know whether it's just me but I find it to be too loud, compressed and lacking in dynamic range. Which is a shame because it's an amazing album and could have really done with better mastering to do justice to their music. Ghost Reveries is nearly the same.

horseburger

The version of Hex Enduction Hour I have is an expanded edition released in 2005 on Sanctuary Records. CMQDD1059.

On Wikipedia it is stated that this release is remastered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hex_Enduction_Hour#Re-issues

there has been a number of their albums released in this expanded edition series on Castle Music - Sanctuary Records

they appear to be albums that they recorded before and after The Falls albums in Beggars Banquet

Some albums from 1990 onwards including Extricate are reissues by Universal in 2007 and on Wikipedia it states these were re-mastered


I understand from someone I know who's been a big Fall Head since the mid 80s that earlier cd issues of their albums don't sound great,

and the cd I have of This Nations Saving Grace is not a recent reissue, BBL 67 CD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Nation%27s_Saving_Grace

I think the only time it has been reissued is in the 3cd set from 2 years ago, but I am not sure if it has been remastered or not

Joe_Dull

Sadly I find that most metal recorded before the late 90s has pretty terrible production, and I would usually avoid it for that reason. The guitars are compressed, fuzzy and scratchy, the bass is non-existant or tinny and the drums lack presence. I understand that there are dozens of classics I'm not giving enough time to, but it's really hard to listen to Master of Puppets right after Ghost Reveries...

horseburger

Joe_Dull wrote: »

Sadly I find that most metal recorded before the late 90s has pretty terrible production, and I would usually avoid it for that reason. The guitars are compressed, fuzzy and scratchy, the bass is non-existant or tinny and the drums lack presence. I understand that there are dozens of classics I'm not giving enough time to, but it's really hard to listen to Master of Puppets right after Ghost Reveries...

I was listening to Morbid Angel's Altars of Madness on cd yesterday and it does sound a bit odd after listening to newer louder cd releases but I got used to it, especially the time Damnation came on!! excellent tune!!

There's a wonderful relentlessness about that album!!

seachto7

Pearl Jam "Ten" can sometimes grate on me. Class album, but sometimes the snare sound sounds a little dated. Very "reverby". Not thr worst though, and it is of it's time as well. The first AIC album is similar...

Jacks Smirking Revenge

Another victim of the loudness war (albeit unsurprisingly) is Slayer

This is the CD version, jarringly loud and very flat.

This is the vinyl version, sounds clearer and not as compressed. Easier on the ears.

BlaasForRafa

Joe_Dull wrote: »

Sadly I find that most metal recorded before the late 90s has pretty terrible production, and I would usually avoid it for that reason. The guitars are compressed, fuzzy and scratchy, the bass is non-existant or tinny and the drums lack presence. I understand that there are dozens of classics I'm not giving enough time to, but it's really hard to listen to Master of Puppets right after Ghost Reveries...

It sounds like your expectations of what you "should" be hearing have been distorted by the loudness war.

When it comes to older metal, get it on second hand vinyl, there is still plenty of it knocking about. Then put it on and just turn it up, thats what the volume knob is for!

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

groovie

bnt wrote: »

No mention of Rush's Vapor Trails (2001)? Overcooked during tracking, mixing and mastering, it seemed. It's just undergone a full remix/remaster by David Bottrill, who's worked with King Crimson, Muse, and Tool (but not Undertow as mentioned above). I can't wait - the album has some cracking songs struggling to breath under the layers of distorted mush.

Indeed the songs can now breathe, the remix has done wonders for the songs, no more straining to hear the melodies, and the vocal mix has de-emphasised the harmonies that made some of it at times sound like the cackling of witches.