Which STB do I need?

funkey_monkey

Following on from my previous thread I'm hoping to get a dual satellite solution installed.

I'm looking to get Freesat and Saorsat put in place.

So, what others in the house wanted me to get was a system whereby they could watch either and record either.

I think this means a twin tuner solution.

This means I'm looking at something like this as a possible STB:

http://www.ferguson-digital.eu/en/hd-receivers/176-ferguson-ariva-tt-hd-pvr.html

http://www.technomate.com/products/TM%252dTwin.html

http://www.technomate.com/products/TM%252d2T.html

* However, does this mean that to, for example, record BBC1 and watch UTV that the Saorsat input will have to go through a DiSEqC switch with a third Freesat input?

The recoding facility is getting very complex. However, if I opt for no PVR facility then it is just a matter of getting a simple HD satellite STB which is DiSEqC compatible and feed the two LNB inputs into it and then let the box select whichever it wants, correct?

Full 7 day EPG's etc are not required for this setup.


Thanks,

excollier

You feed two lnb inputs into a diseqc switch first. So for a twin tuner you will need a twin lnb at each position and a two diseqc switches, one for each tuner in the box.
Can you not receive Saorview? If you can, then the solution could be much simpler with combo receivers, and you will also receive TV3 and 3e. For that route a Technomate TM7102 would be a neat solution, two satellite tuners and a DVB-T2 terrestrial receiver, other brands are available with similar set ups. Then you only need a small aerial and a standard Sky dish or similar.

funkey_monkey

We don't receive Saorview - in Antrim.

We might still end up with a Saorsat/Freeview solution, but that is not my first choice setup as I think an all satellite solution would be better.

Can you please expand on why DiSEqC switch is required on each LNB input? Is this so that RTE1 can be viewed whilst watched TG4/N2? This is a highly unlikely scenario, but I suppose it would be easy to cater for at installation stage if this is what you are thinking.

Do you know anything about the Technomate boxes and how the fare compared to Ferguson STBs?

funkey_monkey

Just ran this past a friend – they are querying whether it would be cheaper/better to opt for Sky multi-room instead?

excollier

No it wouldn't, the cost after one year would outstrip the cost of the other hardware, and keep on costing into the future. if you quit Sky after that you are left with fairly useless/crippled hardware for all your expense.
A diseqc switch is required for each box input so that it can individually pick it's satellite position, allowing you to watch UK satellite while recording Saorsat broadcasts, or vice versa.
Technomate is probably better than Ferguson, and in the case of non-linux boxes, easy to set up.
Where in Antrim do you live? Surely you could receive the RTE Mux from Divis if you are in Antrim town. If you can then a combo box is the way to go.

Peter Rhea

funkey_monkey wrote: »

We might still end up with a Saorsat/Freeview solution, but that is not my first choice setup as I think an all satellite solution would be better.

Don't forget about the tv's own tuner: it would be a source of something to watch if the sat. receiver is tied up with recording. A few tvs allow recording via usb too.

funkey_monkey

excollier wrote: »

No it wouldn't, the cost after one year would outstrip the cost of the other hardware, and keep on costing into the future. if you quit Sky after that you are left with fairly useless/crippled hardware for all your expense.

Thanks - that confirms what I initially thought.

A diseqc switch is required for each box input so that it can individually pick it's satellite position, allowing you to watch UK satellite while recording Saorsat broadcasts, or vice versa.

But do you not only need 2 disqec switches if you intend to record 2 saorsat channels or record and simultaneously view saorsat?

My only concern is recording 2 (or viewing 1 and recording another) on Freesat - which is why I thought that one Freesat feed and the Saorsat feed would go into a diseqc and then fed into STB. The STB would then chose its inputs based on what it was doing.

LNB INPUT 1: Freesat
LNB INPUT 2: Saorsat / Freesat (diseqc)

Would the STB not be intelligent enough to record Saorsat on LNB 2 whilst viewing Freesat on LNB 1?

Where in Antrim do you live? Surely you could receive the RTE Mux from Divis if you are in Antrim town. If you can then a combo box is the way to go.

North Antrim - can't get Donegal signal either.

funkey_monkey

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Don't forget about the tv's own tuner: it would be a source of something to watch if the sat. receiver is tied up with recording. A few tvs allow recording via usb too.

Hi Peter, good to hear from you again!

The TV I've bought apparently has a built in Freeview and satellite tuner. It is not advertised as having a satellite tuner due to some linkage with Sky. However, we'll see when ever we get it what it actually does have!

Peter Rhea

What tv have you bought? It would be a help to people giving advice on speccing your system if they are aware as to its abilities.

I'd say some of us will manage to track down a bit of info about tuners etc., given the make & model.

funkey_monkey

It is an LG 32LN540V.

http://www.lg.com/uk/tvs/lg-32LN540V


As I said, they don't define the satellite tuner in their advertising.

excollier

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Thanks - that confirms what I initially thought.



But do you not only need 2 disqec switches if you intend to record 2 saorsat channels or record and simultaneously view saorsat?

My only concern is recording 2 (or viewing 1 and recording another) on Freesat - which is why I thought that one Freesat feed and the Saorsat feed would go into a diseqc and then fed into STB. The STB would then chose its inputs based on what it was doing.

LNB INPUT 1: Freesat
LNB INPUT 2: Saorsat / Freesat (diseqc)

Would the STB not be intelligent enough to record Saorsat on LNB 2 whilst viewing Freesat on LNB 1?


North Antrim - can't get Donegal signal either.

For all the cost of a second diseqc you might as well fit one, you are going to have to fit twin lnbs at each position anyway, to feed both inputs, so you may as well utilise them properly, and get the extra flexibility.

Peter Rhea

funkey_monkey wrote: »

It is an LG 32LN540V.

Well, that would seem to be 1 satellite & 1 terrestrial tuner available before you even buy a separate box, though you'll need a box for recording, as the tv doesn't have this feature.

funkey_monkey

Thanks - as it doesn't record what benefit do these TV features give me? Does it mean I can purchase a more straightforward and less complex STB?

Also, Peter as you are in the know - can you think of any justifible reason as to why an installer would not want to put an Astra (Sky/Freesat) LNB offset onto a 1m dish alongside Saorsat LNB?

I've viewed a video on YouTube with someone from a Dublin shop doing this - which gave me the idea.


Thanks for all the replies.

Peter Rhea

The STB feature to consider is the ability to handle simultaneous recordings e.g. even the non-Linux, single-tuner TMs can record 3 programmes at once from the same transponder, while the likes of the Arivas can only handle 1 recording at a time.

As for the dish installation, I would think the installer would prefer to do what they're happy with & are willing to stand over. If you only want 1 dish, all you can do is ask & see what they say.

STB

Given that the LG has a Satellite Tuner you now have the option of 3 satellite cables coming in. One to the TV directly. 2 from the Diseqc switches to the box.

So one KU Quad LNB. 1 Twin KA LNB. 2 Diseqc Switches. 1 dish and mount. 1 20 degree offset bracket. Cabling and F connectors.

There is no reason for 2 dishes. One pointing at 9E, 28.2 on the offset.

I dont think you need a 1m dish for 9E Ka for Antrim. Would a TD88 not do it.

Infact would you not do it yourself. Quite easy.

funkey_monkey

We already have Sk+ and a bedroom feed comign for the existing Sky dish. So that would require an octo KU LNB?

2 -> Sky+
1 -> Bedroom
3 -> Living room


I would do it if it was my house, but it is my parents place so I'd rather get it done right first time - they have less patience for me mucking about!

STB

funkey_monkey wrote: »

We already have Sk+ and a bedroom feed comign for the existing Sky dish. So that would require an octo KU LNB?

2 -> Sky+
1 -> Bedroom
3 -> Living room


I would do it if it was my house, but it is my parents place so I'd rather get it done right first time - they have less patience for me mucking about!

Yes an Octo.

The Receiver in the main room. Will your parents be using it ? Those 2 Technomate boxes, they are linux boxes, you understand ? Not for the technically challenged.

Also generic HD (non linux) boxes wont give you 7 day epg.

You know how big a 1 meter dish is ?

funkey_monkey

Which boxes would you recommend then - either for simply viewing or with recording ability?

Could I get away with no stb and the Saorsat & Freesat going into a diseqc before being fed into the TV?

If the recording facility is going to be hassle to install or difficult to setup and use then it is out - recording can be done via Sky+ in the other room.

STB

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Which boxes would you recommend then - either for simply viewing or with recording ability?

Could I get away with no stb and the Saorsat & Freesat going into a diseqc before being fed into the TV?

If the recording facility is going to be hassle to install or difficult to setup and use then it is out - recording can be done via Sky+ in the other room.

Depends on your expectations. I am guessing from your previous posts that they are:

1. Easy Interface (Parent Friendly)
2. 7 day epg (Freesat branded because of 1).
3. Allows Diseqc and mixing of Freesat & Saorsat without switching modes (None yet that I know of).
4. Twin Tuner Recording to built in HDD.

Box does not exist yet. Freesat HD + G2 Boxes are only coming out that allow all 4. New Humax G2 box out but there are restriction in Non Freesat Mode and will only allow diseqc on one input.

New Manhattan G2 Box due out soon which may offer more.

What can you not do without expectations wise ?

Other posters like Apogee and Watty may know more about the limitations of non free sat mode and how that mixes with freesat mode.

I wouldnt send you down the linux boxes route as they will do all you want but require tweaking and would be too much a huge learning curve for parents, especially those used to Sky systems!

funkey_monkey

STB wrote: »

Depends on your expectations. I am guessing from your previous posts that they are:

1. Easy Interface (Parent Friendly)
2. 7 day epg (Freesat branded because of 1).
3. Allows Diseqc and mixing of Freesat & Saorsat without switching modes (None yet that I know of).
4. Twin Tuner Recording to built in HDD.

1. Is a necessity - they are not incompetent, but less complexity would be best.
2. Not necessary - no concern if this is dropped.
3. Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean a stb that is able to handle Saorsat and Freesat - 2 different satellites. Surely that is in existance!?
4. Would be nice, but if things get complicated then it can be dropped.

The basic requirement is a straightforward means of getting UK and Irsh TV stations in the one room.

Feed can be obtained from aerial or satellite for UK TV (aerial is Freeview Lite) and Irish TV must come from Saorsat due to coverage. Hence why I thougt opting for an all satellite solution would be best.

The TV does not say if it supports diseqc switching for its onboard satellite tuner.

STB

funkey_monkey wrote: »

1. Is a necessity - they are not incompetent, but less complexity would be best.
2. Not necessary - no concern if this is dropped.
3. Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean a stb that is able to handle Saorsat and Freesat - 2 different satellites. Surely that is in existance!?
4. Would be nice, but if things get complicated then it can be dropped.

The basic requirement is a straightforward means of getting UK and Irsh TV stations in the one room.

Feed can be obtained from aerial or satellite for UK TV (aerial is Freeview Lite) and Irish TV must come from Saorsat due to coverage. Hence why I thougt opting for an all satellite solution would be best.

The TV does not say if it supports diseqc switching for its onboard satellite tuner.

1. Many boxes fall into this category.
2. Sometimes people want 7 day epg. Sometimes it is equated as a given with No.1
3. What I mean is if 2 (7 day epg) was a requirement that mixing a Freesat Mode (which has the 7 day epg) with Saorsat (non freesat mode) would not be possible as one knocks out the other to be in the one customisable list.
4. Recording goes hand in hand with 7 day epg for those used to Sky planner.

They were in order of knock on effect.

So.....

Quality of receiver will vary and so will budget.

If you wish to record the odd thing, then you could get a cheap twin DVB-S2 receiver and add the record feature via a USB HDD device.

Whats your budget for the box.

funkey_monkey

Probably around £200-£250 for something with recording ability. £100 - £140 for non recording ability.

But that is only a guide - if more dosh is needed for a good reason, then so be it.

STB

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Probably around £200-£250 for something with recording ability. £100 - £140 for non recording ability.

But that is only a guide - if more dosh is needed for a good reason, then so be it.

Single Satellite Tuner/ Single HD DVB-T2 Tuner (Combo Box).
Ferguson Ariva 252.

Will allow you receive NI Freeview (incl HD stations if available in Antrim) off aerial, and has one satellite input (that can seamlessly mix Saorsat and UK Satellite Stations). Supports Diseqc.

Allows you record off Satellite and Watch Freeview and vice versa. Requires USB Hard Drive.

Customisable Channel lists in order of preference. Can Mix both Terrestrial/UK Satellite/Saorsat in Order of preference.

No 7 Day EPG.

Less than €100

Twin Tuner Recording

I'd rather not suggest anything Non Linux as 7 day epg would be a requirement for this in my opinion or its just not worth it.

funkey_monkey

Thanks - I believe that was the one the Peter suggested. So, that would involve two feeds - one from Saorsat LNB and one from Freesat LNB. That would save me the price of an octo LNB - as I would only require 4 feeds from Astra satellite.

How straightforward is the recording on the Ferguson 252? How does twin tuner recording work on this - I am guessing that it is terrestrial and satellite feeds being recorded simultaneously (as opposed to two satellite feeds)?

Edit: I think I've misread your post - Twin Tuner Recording is a heading, not a highlighted feature of the 252, correct?

As a guide what would be next step up from that in terms of ability and cost? If I am paying for his time I am thinking it might not cost much more for extra feeds and dependant on what benefits that will provide, then it might make more sense to go for the more expensive option.


Thanks.

STB

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Thanks - I believe that was the one the Peter suggested. So, that would involve two feeds - one from Saorsat LNB and one from Freesat LNB. That would save me the price of an octo LNB - as I would only require 4 feeds from Astra satellite.

How straightforward is the recording on the Ferguson 252? How does twin tuner recording work on this - I am guessing that it is terrestrial and satellite feeds being recorded simultaneously (as opposed to two satellite feeds)?

Edit: I think I've misread your post - Twin Tuner Recording is a heading, not a highlighted feature of the 252, correct?

As a guide what would be next step up from that in terms of ability and cost? If I am paying for his time I am thinking it might not cost much more for extra feeds and dependant on what benefits that will provide, then it might make more sense to go for the more expensive option.


Thanks.

Yes you misread it. The record option header is for Twin tuner satellite receiver that I'd rather not advise you on. I use a Linux box.

The simple parent friendly combo box suggested would allow you to record via single terrestrial (aerial) OR Combined satellite single input (diseq). Watch one record off the other. No Simultaneous recording off both tuners at same time. And its to a USB drive. That USB Drive can also contain Divx/MKV MP4 files which the box will also play i.e. media functionality.

You will only have 2 satellite cables coming in. One for your TV and one for your box. So effectively you could switch to the TV input when recording off the box or watch dvb-t.

The Ariva 252 remote can be programmed to control your TV (and Hifi) as well as it has universal remote features. Very handy, one remote.

There is also an Ariva 250. But you require the 252 as Northern Ireland HD services require the DVB-T2 tuner to get those aerial HD stations. That is the only difference between them.

I couldnt tell you how much it will cost (I am not an installer). I did my own for fun (and because its much cheaper!). But i would suggest that in the event that you want more functionality in the future that you get the Octo LNB and the cabling run in when getting the install. That way you can get another more advanced box down the road (should you require more recording features) and it will be plug and play. Best of Luck.

funkey_monkey

Are dual tuner PVR’s rally that difficult to use on a day to day basis? I am able to set things up and do any necessary fiddling with them. However, is the interface that complex that a normal citizen cannot watch TV, record or switch from Saorsat channel to Freesat channel etc?

funkey_monkey

Okay, the plan is (depending on willingness of installer to do this) is to combine Saorsat and Freesat/Sky onto one dish.

For the room, my TV has diseqc switching on its satellite tuner so in the short term I'll get a feed fed into a diseqc and then connected to TV - therefore they can watch TV as normal.

In the longer term I'll find a STB which can record as I need.

So, am I best having two feeds of each (saorsat/freesat) into the room or shoudl I get more - without over engineering the thing?

Would a single Saorsat input suffice as I can't see us recording 2 RTE channels and/or viewing/recording RTE simultaneously.

excollier

The Saorsat lnb will most likely be a twin anyway, so get two diseqc switches. and feed two cables into the room, each carrying Freesat (fta)/Saorsat. That way you will have future flexibility. You are going to need two cables in anyway, so you might as well include the extra diseqc switch.

funkey_monkey

Hi thanks for the reply. I'm a bit tired but are you suggesting:

Saorsat: Twin LNB and 2 Saorsat feeds into room
Freesat: Octo LNB and 2 Freesat feeds into room

That is four cables into room. There are two currently in place - are you suggesting an additional two to these ones - or just two in total?

STB LNB1 I/P: Saorsat_1 diseqc Freesat_1
STB LNB2 I/P: Saorsat_2 diseqc Freesat_2

* Octo due to: 2 - Sky+; 1 - Bedroom; 2 - Living room = 5

Peter Rhea

The DiSEqC switches go outside at the dish. The combined feeds are brought into the room.

excollier

Meaning that the two existing cables will suffice

funkey_monkey

Ahh, didn't know that!

That is excellent to know. Out of interest whiy are they put outside - is it primarily done to save cabling and if so would it not be better having the diseqc just inside the exterior wall? (Obviously not as it is not done - just curious as to why it is done this way).

Thanks.

Peter Rhea

Should have said the switches can go outside: they don't have to & they don't all come with weatherproof covers but, if most of your cabling is external, it could mean some long runs before you get to combine them with an indoor switch.

excollier

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Ahh, didn't know that!

That is excellent to know. Out of interest whiy are they put outside - is it primarily done to save cabling and if so would it not be better having the diseqc just inside the exterior wall? (Obviously not as it is not done - just curious as to why it is done this way).

Thanks.

It simply saves on cabling. If you fit them outside, plaster them in silicone grease, and they won't give you any bother.

funkey_monkey

Thanks - final questions - freesat and saorsat can both be obtained using the 1m solid Triax dish?

Do I need a special type of offset bracket to get Saorsat and Freesat or can they be oriented in any direction?

dharn

Saorsat can be difficult to locate so you need to point your dish more or less at 9 deg, and then will need offset arm to locate 28, the arm needs to be tilted,, it can be done but is difficult thats why the installer is reluctant

funkey_monkey

I obtained these figures for my location and was wondering if it is physically possible for them to be set up on a 1m dish which has the Saorsat (9E) LNB centred on the dish – as it is the weakest signal:

If you want to point a satellite TV dish at the Satellite at = 9 East orbit longitude
beam elevation= 25.8, Azimuth= 167.2 (magnetic compass), Polarisation= -10.3
Polar mounts only: Main angle= 55.7, Downward tilt= 7.1, Motor drive sideways angle= 16.5

If you want to point a satellite TV dish at the Satellite at = 28.2 East orbit longitude
beam elevation= 20.1, Azimuth= 145.6 (magnetic compass), Polarisation= -21.5
Polar mounts only: Main angle= 55.7, Downward tilt= 7.1, Motor drive sideways angle= 37.3


Dish pointing (Azimuth and elevation mount):
Set the dish elevation (up/down) angle first. There may be a scale on the back. An inclinometer may be of use if you know the dish elevation offset angle. Set the feed rotation polarisation angle also. There may be polarisation rotation scale on the LNB feed horn throat. Facing towards the satellite in the sky, clockwise polarisation rotation is positive, negative is anticlockwise. For Astra Sky Satellite add +7 deg, for Eutelsat Hotbird satellite add +3.5 deg polarisation angle.



Do I need a special type of offset arm for this to work, if it is possible or will any offset arm work?

Peter Rhea

In another thread, you mentioned another Saorsat install you got done a while back: was it Saorsat only or was there an lnb for UK channels on the same dish?

Do you have any pics? We like that kind of thing here.

funkey_monkey

Peter Rhea wrote: »

In another thread, you mentioned another Saorsat install you got done a while back: was it Saorsat only or was there an lnb for UK channels on the same dish?

Do you have any pics? We like that kind of thing here.

Unfortunately it was Saorsat only. If I manage to get this one combined I'll post some pics! Can it be done?

STB

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Unfortunately it was Saorsat only. If I manage to get this one combined I'll post some pics! Can it be done?

What dish size where you using ?

There is a very large thread showing exactly what you can and cannot do with various size dishes and multibrackets.

1.1m dish I think is overkill for 9E KA. Perhaps someone else from Antrim might know the realities of this.

If the dish you have is a Triax dish then you can use the 20 degree Triax multibracket. You will have to redrill it away from the centre to get the spread.

The bigger the dish the less the multibracket covers as the spacing increases between LNB's.

On a TD88 (88cm) dish you can achieve a 4.8E to 28E spread.

funkey_monkey

Thanks for that reply.

I would need to measure the other install, but I thought it was a 1m dish that was installed. I'll see if I can check somehow.

Edit: Okay, you got me on the dish size. I thought it was a 1m, but it seems the dishes only come in 70, 88 and 110.


I presume that these Triax brackets are fairly robust or is there anything else robust compatible with these dishes?


Looking at this video, I'm not convinced about the bracket he is using. I'm sure it is grand and works fine - just doesn't look robust to me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oelcysN1gw and in more detail http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmOWa0UXoIY

It isn't using locknuts and just seems with some vibration that it could move easily - especially as the Astra LNB is quite far out producing a bit of torque. It must work, but it is not something that I'd have faith in!

*I'm not slagging the guy off - he knows much more than me. I just don't think that bracket is a robust solution.

dharn

I would agree with you there it is very flimsy looking, the triax is much stronger

funkey_monkey

STB wrote: »

If the dish you have is a Triax dish then you can use the 20 degree Triax multibracket. You will have to redrill it away from the centre to get the spread.

I think I've just figured out what you mean by this. The 20 degree multibracket is sold with its connctor to the dish arm in the centre of the bracket. This gives a range of 3deg to 20deg. In order to obtain 9deg to 28deg spread with centre on 9deg, the connector must be moved out to the side - which necessitates re-boring of the hole for the connector, correct?

dharn

You are, you also have to tilt the arm as the elevation of the 2 satellites is different

STB

He posts here infact.

A lot of his videos are very helpful.

No those brackets are not great.

The Triax bracket is specifically made for the Triax dish and are heavier and come with the lnb holders.

Heres a few configurations of mine from months back on a TD 88 (it has changed significantly since then as it now spans 0.8W to 28E with a slight add on).

13E 19E 23E //26E 28E


19E 23E //26E 28E 39E


4.8E/9&10E/13E //19E/23.5E/28.2E

STB

dharn wrote: »

You are, you also have to tilt the arm as the elevation of the 2 satellites is different

Indeed. And make sure when you are re-drilling the hole that you drill on the bottom rung as that gives you more tilt on the bracket.

(The bracket comes predrilled in the centre on the top rung).

It will be evident from the second picture what you need to do. The 9E LNB on the left, the 28.2 LNB on the right, if behind the dish looking at the lnbs face on.

funkey_monkey

Thanks. I'll see what installer says first. Doesn't look overly difficult to me - as in it is something a competent installer sould be able to do.

dharn

Ya I have done it and im not an installer, in fact I never put up a dish before that

Peter Rhea

dharn wrote: »

Ya I have done it and im not an installer

And your installation performs flawlessly on all channels in all weathers?

STB

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Thanks. I'll see what installer says first. Doesn't look overly difficult to me - as in it is something a competent installer sould be able to do.

Like dharn I am not a dish installer.

Aligning 2 LNBs on one bracket is not difficult.

If the dish is accessible you could do it yourself if you have the interest and patience. Otherwise leave to to the pro's.

dharn

Peter Rhea wrote: »

And your installation performs flawlessly on all channels in all weathers?

To be honest peter I seldom use the saorsat, but the 28 freesat on the offset works perfectly, my original plan was to combine saorsat and freesat on a humax pvr so as to be able to record from both but never got round to doing the software change on the humax