Using free travel pass on train

horse7

My neighbour uses his oap travel pass regularly mostly on the bus, but on every occasion he uses it on the train there is a hold up while its checked. That is not a problem,but he is told by the train guys that the pass cards from dept of social protection are being changed. Is this true as i cannot find info on their site.

AlekSmart

horse7 wrote: »

My neighbour uses his oap travel pass regularly mostly on the bus, but on every occasion he uses it on the train there is a hold up while its checked. That is not a problem,but he is told by the train guys that the pass cards from dept of social protection are being changed. Is this true as i cannot find info on their site.

Yes that is the situation.

The DSP are currently in the initial phase of issuing a new Public Services Card,which will incorporate,where appropriate,the Free Travel entitlement of the cardholder.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/public_services_card.html

Note that currently the Public Services Card is issued by invitation only. You cannot request one. If you have general questions about the card or the registration process you can use the Department of Social Protection’s online query form.

If you have questions about the ‘face-to-face’ registration process contact:

Client Identity Services

Department of Social Protection
Shannon Lodge
Carrick-On-Shannon
Co. Leitrim

Currently there is a new,and long overdue,consideration of the Free Travel Scheme.

The DSP and all CIE Companies are,for example,now operating a new quick-reference facility whereby any Free Passses taken up are handled by a single dedicated office,which is greatly facilitating the actual checking process.

horse7

Grand, so he can not apply for a new one, he will wait to be contacted. thanks

foggy_lad

The pass is currently being changed but the new pass is being issued by invitation only so it is not generally available so your neighbours old card should not be treated with any more or less suspicion than it may have been previously.

What your neighbour has most likely been experiencing is a long overdue regime of transport employees checking the pass properly to ensure it is as it is supposed to be with signature and valid photopass if required.

Jamie2k9

On a general note, this change over is moving way to slow and the DSP need to get the finger out and speed it up.

AlekSmart

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

On a general note, this change over is moving way to slow and the DSP need to get the finger out and speed it up.

It appears the scheduled rate of issue is currently 200 per week,per local DSP admin area.

At this rate,we shall be experiencing a new Ice-Age before all DSP customers are chipped......:)

miller50841

It will be sorted in around 10 years so when the country has another boom they wont care and at that stage 80% of the population will have one the whole system is nuts.

Losty Dublin

AlekSmart wrote: »

It appears the scheduled rate of issue is currently 200 per week,per local DSP admin area.

At this rate,we shall be experiencing a new Ice-Age before all DSP customers are chipped......:)

Alek, the roll out on the new cards is slow but with good reason. They were trialled with at a few local DSP offices for a year to ascertain any operational issues. Once this was finished then a solid evaluation was done before the ext step of roll out was decided on.

As the new system requires a 3 D facial scan for a database it follows that anybody getting a new card needs to attend a interview for the photo; other ID details are taken on the day to verify you on the day as well as details for future security questions beyond the Mother's Maiden Name. It isn't a simple matter of sending in photo's and sending out cards; this one will take a while but for valid reasons but bear with it, it will get there.

Morf

Biometric social services cards? Bit Orwellian, isn't it?

AlekSmart

Morf wrote: »

Biometric social services cards? Bit Orwellian, isn't it?

Not half Orwellian enough...bring it bloody-well on.

It's also worth noting the appearance of the latest sombre looking BAC Customer Advice Notice.....a hugely significant event ....

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/10706/262369.jpg

Things REALLY are changing when one sees this type of warning in relation to DSP Free Travel Scheme members.

Gatling

Alex is that being issued to buses the new sign

bmaxi

AlekSmart wrote: »

Not half Orwellian enough...bring it bloody-well on.

It's also worth noting the appearance of the latest sombre looking BAC Customer Advice Notice.....a hugely significant event ....

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/10706/262369.jpg

Things REALLY are changing when one sees this type of warning in relation to DSP Free Travel Scheme members.

They can put up as many threatening signs as they like but who is going to discover these fraudulent passes?

AlekSmart

Gatling wrote: »

Alex is that being issued to buses the new sign

Yes it is ....most folks do not read it as it's as Gaeilge on one side....:(

AlekSmart

bmaxi wrote: »

They can put up as many threatening signs as they like but who is going to discover these fraudulent passes?

I don't see it as a "Threatening" sign at all bmaxi,more of an informative one,for those willing to be informed.

It also fulfills a role in short-circuiting any future defence of the "Nobody Told Me" type.

However,all of this aside,I'm sure you'll agree that this is the FIRST time I have ever seen the State Operator make any public reference whatever to the DSP Pass Holder being capable of regulation.

It is,in my opinion,a momentuous event and one which Public Transport Historians would do well to note.

The eagler-eyed in the congregation will however notice that the sombre warning is headed...Standard Fare Penalty,which is a bit of a misnomer,as a Standard Fare of itself,is exactly what it says...The actual Fare as charged on the bus is discounted to reflect a customers agreement with,and acceptance,of the Conditions of Carriage.

As the DSP Free Travel Scheme is an Administrative Scheme,with no basis in Leglislation,it appears there can be no actual offence of misuse of the document itself.

The only avenue open to an Operator on discovering such an occurence,is to take up the document and return it,with report,to the DSP. (Who,in the past would often post it,or a new replacement,directly back to the holder)

That leaves the errant Dodgy Pass Holder on the Bus without a Valid Ticket/Pass,and therefore liable to the Standard Fare in common with all other customers.

The important element here is that the DSP has NO involvement in this part of the process,it is now BAC's normal Revenue Control machinery in operation.

One thing is for sure,SOMETHING is happening,as the very hint that any DSP Pass Holder could even be suspected of using an invalid card would never have been publically referred to by the State Operators.

Expect more developments,soon....:cool:

bmaxi

AlekSmart wrote: »

I don't see it as a "Threatening" sign at all bmaxi,more of an informative one,for those willing to be informed.

It also fulfills a role in short-circuiting any future defence of the "Nobody Told Me" type.

However,all of this aside,I'm sure you'll agree that this is the FIRST time I have ever seen the State Operator make any public reference whatever to the DSP Pass Holder being capable of regulation.

It is,in my opinion,a momentuous event and one which Public Transport Historians would do well to note.

The eagler-eyed in the congregation will however notice that the sombre warning is headed...Standard Fare Penalty,which is a bit of a misnomer,as a Standard Fare of itself,is exactly what it says...The actual Fare as charged on the bus is discounted to reflect a customers agreement with,and acceptance,of the Conditions of Carri.

As the DSP Free Travel Scheme is an Administrative Scheme,with no basis in Leglislation,it appears there can be no actual offence of misuse of the document itself.

The only avenue open to an Operator on discovering such an occurence,is to take up the document and return it,with report,to the DSP. (Who,in the past would often post it,or a new replacement,directly back to the holder)

That leaves the errant Dodgy Pass Holder on the Bus without a Valid Ticket/Pass,and therefore liable to the Standard Fare in common with all other customers.

The important element here is that the DSP has NO involvement in this part of the process,it is now BAC's normal Revenue Control machinery in operation.

One thing is for sure,SOMETHING is happening,as the very hint that any DSP Pass Holder could even be suspected of using an invalid card would never have been publically referred to by the State Operators.

Expect more developments,soon....:cool:

You can use whichever adjective you prefer, the question remains.
A DSP Pass Holder would not be using an invalid card, if they're a Pass Holder then, by definition, their card is valid. Anybody on the bus without a valid warrant or ticket is always a fare dodger and this has always carried a penalty, the only thing that has changed IMO, is that attention is being drawn to a particular category. Whether it'll make a bit of difference to the people who dodge fares is a moot point. It has the potential to be as effective as the "seats are not for feet" signs, which, as we all know, are religiously observed.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

The eagle-eyed in the congregation will however notice that the sombre warning is headed...Standard Fare Penalty,which is a bit of a misnomer,as a Standard Fare of itself,is exactly what it says...The actual Fare as charged on the bus is discounted to reflect a customers agreement with,and acceptance,of the Conditions of Carriage. is aimed at social welfare CARDS which most people have as it is a record of their pps number, A free travel pass is a different document altogether!

As the DSP Free Travel Scheme is an Administrative Scheme,with no basis in Leglislation,it appears there can be no actual offence of misuse of the document itself.

Any prosecution for misuse is dealt with by the relevant social welfare office and not by the transport operator as they are not responsible for the administration of the scheme.

The only avenue open to an Operator on discovering such an occurence,is to take up the document and return it,with report,to the DSP. (Who,in the past would often post it,or a new replacement,directly back to the holder)

If a pass holder who may well be disabled either mentally or psychologically as well as physically does not comply with the exact terms of use of the free travel pass what other punishment would you have them endure apart from confiscation of their pass which in most cases will mean a lot of distress and inconvenience for the holder and their families? Are you saying that someone with a mental infirmity should be jailed or fined or be left without their pass because some other scumbag takes their travel pass to use it?

That leaves the errant Dodgy Pass Holder on the Bus without a Valid Ticket/Pass,and therefore liable to the Standard Fare in common with all other customers.
The important element here is that the DSP has NO involvement in this part of the process,it is now BAC's normal Revenue Control machinery in operation.

and this is where the pass holders family usually has to step in.

One thing is for sure,SOMETHING is happening,as the very hint that any DSP Pass Holder could even be suspected of using an invalid card would never have been publically referred to by the State Operators.

Expect more developments,soon....:cool:

Something is happening all-right but it is possibly not what you think it is!

Now that Dublin Bus siptu workers have voted in favour of strike action I would say there are definite changes afoot but nothing to do with the DSP free travel pass!

WildRosie

How does your pass or card become invalid? Mine don't have any dates on them. I've never had any problem using it on Irish Rail. Staff have always been very nice and helpful. Dublin Bus not so much...some of the drivers don't seem too keen on them

Gatling

WildRosie wrote: »

How does your pass or card become invalid? Mine don't have any dates on them. I've never had any problem using it on Irish Rail. Staff have always been very nice and helpful. Dublin Bus not so much...some of the drivers don't seem too keen on them

Not been signed and not having the photo id apparently( depending on where your living )

AlekSmart

WildRosie wrote: »

How does your pass or card become invalid? Mine don't have any dates on them. I've never had any problem using it on Irish Rail. Staff have always been very nice and helpful. Dublin Bus not so much...some of the drivers don't seem too keen on them

It has nothing at all to do with a Drivers Keeness

The Irish Rail comparison does not take account of the fact that you exchange your Free Pass for an Issued Ticket,thereby allowing for the scrutiny of your travel document.

On Dublin Bus,however the only means of scrutiny is as you pass the Busdriver.

As one such Busdriver,It is a part of my Job to ensure that the Free Pass Holder displays that document upon boarding.

Some Pass Holders will always display the Free Pass clearly,whilst others will either briefly flash a corner of it or simply walk past with a nod or a tap of the breast.

A substantial number will show the DSP (Or BAC) ID Card only,which is NOT the Free Pass....and with regard to this Thread Title's extension into the Bus world,that means they are then liable for a Standard Fare,which brings with it the Dire Consequences as outlined in the New Notice.

For those with a rural address,It is the signature which is the only verification of identity,and,from experience,a very large number of holders have never signed their Free Pass.

Again,from daily experience,a great number of DSP Free Pass holders can be quite indignant if asked to display their full pass for inspection,the majority of this category would be in the "Pass Holder Only" category travelling with a Companion and ushering that person on ahead of them.

However,as is going to become more evident in the coming months,this added focus on Free Pass checking may well yet be regarded as a "Nice and Helpful" gesture,should it allow a Free Pass holder to avoid being levied with a Standard Fare ?

WildRosie

I have no problem with my pass being checked as I have nothing to hide. I have my photo ID card and pass and show them both to the driver when boarding. However I have had some looks from DB drivers that weren't exactly warm. Maybe it's something to do with me being young and not having a visible disability, I don't know. Maybe a small number of drivers make an assumption based on what they see. Haven't had this with other transport providers but as you say DB drivers only have a second to glance at the pass.

No, free pass holders should not be exempt from the standard fare if they are travelling outside the rules of the scheme. There has to be some impetus to obey the rules.

bmaxi

AlekSmart wrote: »

It has nothing at all to do with a Drivers Keeness

The Irish Rail comparison does not take account of the fact that you exchange your Free Pass for an Issued Ticket,thereby allowing for the scrutiny of your travel document.

On Dublin Bus,however the only means of scrutiny is as you pass the Busdriver.

As one such Busdriver,It is a part of my Job to ensure that the Free Pass Holder displays that document upon boarding.

Some Pass Holders will always display the Free Pass clearly,whilst others will either briefly flash a corner of it or simply walk past with a nod or a tap of the breast.

A substantial number will show the DSP (Or BAC) ID Card only,which is NOT the Free Pass....and with regard to this Thread Title's extension into the Bus world,that means they are then liable for a Standard Fare,which brings with it the Dire Consequences as outlined in the New Notice.

For those with a rural address,It is the signature which is the only verification of identity,and,from experience,a very large number of holders have never signed their Free Pass.

Again,from daily experience,a great number of DSP Free Pass holders can be quite indignant if asked to display their full pass for inspection,the majority of this category would be in the "Pass Holder Only" category travelling with a Companion and ushering that person on ahead of them.

However,as is going to become more evident in the coming months,this added focus on Free Pass checking may well yet be regarded as a "Nice and Helpful" gesture,should it allow a Free Pass holder to avoid being levied with a Standard Fare ?

What is your response to the pocket tappers and the ID flashers, do you call them back and insist on their showing the pass? If you do then you are in a minority and this is where the problem lies IMO. I can understand in peak times drivers being under pressure and being less than attentive but I have witnessed the behaviour of which you speak and many drivers just don't react to it. I don't know whether this is due to apathy or a wish to avoid embarrassment but this is the first line of defence, so to speak. I doubt any legitimate pass holder would refuse to show their pass if challenged and I'd reckon one challenge would suffice.
I'm still waiting to hear who is going to be undertaking this "added focus on free pass checking"

dowlingm

Maybe DB managers will be going out and about in the manner of their IE brethren?

Henwin

hiya, just a bit off topic here, but my parents are intending to go on the bus next weekend, they very rarely go anywhere. anyway they have mislaid their travel passes and tey r now worried that they wont be able to travel. my dad has his drivers licience, would this do?
are the buses and trains very strict. my mom is 70 and dad is 66.
appreciate any comments

Jamie2k9

Henwin wrote: »

hiya, just a bit off topic here, but my parents are intending to go on the bus next weekend, they very rarely go anywhere. anyway they have mislaid their travel passes and tey r now worried that they wont be able to travel. my dad has his drivers licience, would this do?
are the buses and trains very strict. my mom is 70 and dad is 66.
appreciate any comments

They shouldn't be allowed to travel but as most people would know they have passes the driver might allow it but some won't. I would bring money and be prepared to pay for a ticket to be safe.

BowWow

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

the driver might allow it

Ridiculous, should be a simple "No pass - No Travel".

Jamie2k9

BowWow wrote: »

Ridiculous, should be a simple "No pass - No Travel".

Totally agree.

But some drivers will allow it, some have a very relaxed approach to it.

Vic_08

Henwin wrote: »

hiya, just a bit off topic here, but my parents are intending to go on the bus next weekend, they very rarely go anywhere. anyway they have mislaid their travel passes and tey r now worried that they wont be able to travel

What a ridiculous statement, of course they will be able to travel. If they cannot find their passes then they can pay the regular fare. Travelling without a valid ticket or pass is illegal and can lead to a fine or prosecution.

Henwin

ok, alls gud anyway, cause we found them. thanks for the comments.

Gael23

BowWow wrote: »

Ridiculous, should be a simple "No pass - No Travel".

For some people who travel the same route regularly, the driver knows them well so they dont show the pass.

Gatling

ryanf1 wrote: »

For some people who travel the same route regularly, the driver knows them well so they dont show the pass.

Shouldn't make a difference you have to show your pass when your boarding a winx and a nod isnt proof of valid pass

Fred Swanson

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AlekSmart

BowWow wrote: »

Ridiculous, should be a simple "No pass - No Travel".

It actually IS that simple.....

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares--Tickets/Free-Travel-Scheme-/

Free Travel Pass Holders who fail to provide their pass will be liable for the appropriate fare and claims for refunds in such circumstances will not be entertained.

It is a totally unrewarding and ultimately fruitless process attempting to extract a fare from "Seniors" who don't,won't or can't produce their Free Pass.

I usually ask if they've lost it and advise them to report it to the DSP,I'll also advise them that although I'm accepting their story a Revenue Inspector MAY well not and issue a Standard Fare...I always end by telling them..."Its YOUR call".

Now,as we all know any Revenue Inspector who dared Go German on implementing these Rules,would be savaged,not only here on Boards but most likely on Joe and the rest of the popular media....;)

Mind you,not too long ago one elderly lady advised me that she had given her Pass to her Grandaughter,"cos she makes much more use of the buses than I do".......:eek:

Get the Gards,I say !!!

dowlingm

"You know madam, if she's caught with it and convicted she'll never get a visa for America"

Might need a portable defibrillator handy in case things go wrong though...

Fred Swanson

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loyatemu

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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if you're an OAP though, once you qualify, you qualify forever.

Fred Swanson

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WildRosie

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I've wondered about this. I have a (valid) pass as I am on invalidity pension, but if the department were to revoke it, how would that work? They ask me to send it back? But what if I didn't? How would Dublin Bus or Irish Rail etc know? It's just a piece of paper...surely a dishonest person could just keep using it? The whole system seems very open to abuse.

Hilly Bill

WildRosie wrote: »

I've wondered about this. I have a (valid) pass as I am on invalidity pension, but if the department were to revoke it, how would that work? They ask me to send it back? But what if I didn't? How would Dublin Bus or Irish Rail etc know? It's just a piece of paper...surely a dishonest person could just keep using it? The whole system seems very open to abuse.

If they have any doubts they have a number to ring to check.

AlekSmart

WildRosie wrote: »

I've wondered about this. I have a (valid) pass as I am on invalidity pension, but if the department were to revoke it, how would that work? They ask me to send it back? But what if I didn't? How would Dublin Bus or Irish Rail etc know? It's just a piece of paper...surely a dishonest person could just keep using it? The whole system seems very open to abuse.

WildRosie,it's relatively simple and hugely popular,you would do as significant numbers of "dishonest persons" have done,and continue to do....In the highly unlikely event of the DSP asking you to return the Free Pass,do so...but only after first making a copy :eek:

On the face of it,this may appear Illegal,however given the non-statutory nature of the Free Travel Scheme,there appears to be no mechanism by which you can be charged of such an offence,so although your copied Free Pass could be seized,the only actual offence would then be of contravening the Transport Companies bye-laws on Ticket Possession,with payment of a Standard Fare usually the least problematic option.

You will struggle to find any public mention of Court Proceedings relating to this scheme,as up until recently,it appears to have been beyond the pale in terms of investigation (apart from the 2009 Prime Time Investigates programme...;) )

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pensioners-free-travel-scheme-hit-by-rampant-fraud-28815962.html

I suggest that it will take a FoI request to uncover details of prosecutions,never mind convictions in relation to FT Scheme Misuse ?

dowlingm

IANAL, but there should be some scope to look at these offences as attempts to defraud (Section 7, Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001)

You are presenting a document which you proport to have been issued to you in order to gain advantage.

mickydoomsux

The will just isn't there to tackle the whole issue of the utterly broken free travel scheme.

I myself have reported and confiscated numerous misused passes and all that happens is that the holder reports it missing/stolen and they get a new one because the DSP don't care and hand them out like they are going out of fashion. I've given up in all but the most blatant cases because quite frankly it's just a waste of time. Add to that the fact that 99.9% of antisocial behaviour on trains and in stations is caused by pasa holders.

The government won't tackle the issue because it would be political suicide. All they'll do is cut the subvention which is already not even sort of covering the cost of journeys made by free travel holders. 2/3 of the tickets we issue at my station are freebies and the companies plan to generate revenue is to raise prices for paying customers or cut their employees wages?

The entire thing is a shambles and it needs to be scrapped completely and rethought from the ground up.

WildRosie

Thanks for that link AlekSmart. Those figures are fairly shocking, and they're just the ones who are caught. I assume it's mainly the disability passes that are abused rather than the OAP ones?

The whole thing is a bit of a disaster. The Free Travel Scheme is a generous and valuable benefit to those who need it and use it as it was intended, but it is so open to abuse and to think there is no specific offence of fraudulently using a pass...not sure what to say to that. Will the new public service cards be replacing the current pass? If the card could be scanned to check validity at least that would be something. It's a crazy situation that a piece of paper can get you a train ticket worth €50 with no way of checking the passenger's entitlement to the pass.

It must be very disheartening for those of you who work in Dublin Bus/Irish Rail/Bus Éireann etc knowing this is happening and nothing is being done about it while the end result is a further squeeze on your jobs and increased fares for paying passengers.

Peppa Pig

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Add to that the fact that 99.9% of antisocial behaviour on trains and in stations is caused by pasa holders.

You really believe that, really?
How do you know?

mickydoomsux

Peppa Pig wrote: »

You really believe that, really?
How do you know?

Personal experience from working in Irish Rail. The guards usually use the free travel pass to get peoples names and addresses when they are too drunk/high/belligerent to give their details when they are being removed from the premises or trains. That's how widespread it is.

BuffyBot

Add to that the fact that 99.9% of antisocial behaviour on trains and in stations is caused by pasa holders.

I presume you're going to back that up with some verifiable statistics or retract it?

Otherwise, like 99.9% of the facts on the internet, it's seems made up, pointless and likely to contribute zilch to the thread.

The ball is in your court.

shleedance

I have a pass yet I never cause hassle.

I usually make sure to bring ID with my pass due to my age and the fact I'm not outwardly disabled, since some drivers get a bit skeptical. Never had a problem.

The new cards would be a welcome change since it's all too easy for people to abuse the current passes.

miller50841

shleedance wrote: »

I have a pass yet I never cause hassle.

I usually make sure to bring ID with my pass due to my age and the fact I'm not outwardly disabled, since some drivers get a bit skeptical. Never had a problem.

The new cards would be a welcome change since it's all too easy for people to abuse the current passes.

In some cases the way a driver use to know why a pass holder had one as you said you may or may not have a visible disability was the colour of the pass but for the last few years they are now all red coloured so the driver/inspector no longer knows.

There are a lot more free passes then there ever was and there are a lot that have absolutely nothing wrong with them but just exercise their right to do nothing for the rest of their life.

shleedance

There are a lot more free passes then there ever was and there are a lot that have absolutely nothing wrong with them but just exercise their right to do nothing for the rest of their life.

I dunno. I would agree with you if it was a smack-head (which often stick out like a sore thumb anyway), but apart from that, how would you know of their circumstances?

Gatling

miller50841 wrote: »

In some cases the way a driver use to know why a pass holder had one as you said you may or may not have a visible disability was the colour of the pass but for the last few years they are now all red coloured so the driver/inspector no longer knows.

There are a lot more free passes then there ever was and there are a lot that have absolutely nothing wrong with them but just exercise their right to do nothing for the rest of their life.

They changed to the red band because OAP's didn't want to be identified as been an OAP by a color band apparently it infringed there human Rights or something along those lines

miller50841

shleedance wrote: »

I dunno. I would agree with you if it was a smack-head (which often stick out like a sore thumb anyway), but apart from that, how would you know of their circumstances?

That was my point it is no longer known by colour.

Fred Swanson

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