Bulk or Cut to reach goal?

Minatauro

Hi,

Just looking for an answer as to the best way to achieve my goal.
currently Im 5' 11 and 16 stone guessing 20-25% bodyfat.

My aim is to get down to about 14 stone but as low bodyfat as possible into single digits if possible.

Considering im weak as a kitten at the moment, do I need to eat and hit weights to build muscle then cut fat later
or
eat less (and better) to reduce fat then build back up to increase muscle in order to reach goal?

Im not sure which route to take. any advice is welcome please.

dor843088

Minatauro wrote: »

Hi,

Just looking for an answer as to the best way to achieve my goal.
currently Im 5' 11 and 16 stone guessing 20-25% bodyfat.

My aim is to get down to about 14 stone but as low bodyfat as possible into single digits if possible.

Considering im weak as a kitten at the moment, do I need to eat and hit weights to build muscle then cut fat later this
or
eat less (and better) to reduce fat then build back up to increase muscle in order to reach goal?

Im not sure which route to take. any advice is welcome please.

At 14 stone in single digit body fat you would be a fu**ing monster. 12 stone is way more realistic fot your height depending how ripped you want to be . You should definitely cut imo if your anywhere near 20% bf as you say . Hit the weights hard and reduce your body weight very slowly and you should build some muscle on the way down if your new to training as you say. Jump on a program like starting strength .

Hanley

dor843088 wrote: »

At 14 stone in single digit body fat you would be a fu**ing monster. 12 stone is way more realistic fot your height depending how ripped you want to be . You should definitely cut imo if your anywhere near 20% bf as you say . Hit the weights hard and reduce your body weight very slowly and you should build some muscle on the way down if your new to training as you say. Jump on a program like starting strength .

This.

Minatauro

Great thanks for the info. Yeah am a newbie to this, I remember when I was younger I was about 11 stone and single digit fat (guessing this this I had 8 pack from football training and astro every other night and matches on saturday and sunday) I thought I was very skinny though and that's why I am aiming for the heavier 14 stone now. The sedentary job and college took its toll an now I want to get back.

I am interested in the german volume training and would possibly prefer this over starting strength as if i eat less i may not be able to have energy for the heavier lifts of starting strength.

amazingemmet

Starting strength 35 reps total per workout, not counting warm ups.

German volume training 200+ reps per workout.

Think logically about this which will be harder to recover from on lower cals.

Personally my votes goes for westside for skinny b$stards 3, with 1-2 days of conditoning/intervals a week

JJayoo

People are complicating things. Just clean up your diet and get your hole in the gym tomorrow. Plenty of time to focus on a specific program once you have a routine(actually going to the gym/other exercise) nailed down.

Mellor

Minatauro wrote: »

Just looking for an answer as to the best way to achieve my goal.
currently Im 5' 11 and 16 stone guessing 20-25% bodyfat.

My aim is to get down to about 14 stone but as low bodyfat as possible into single digits if possible.

Taking these numbers as correct for now*.
16st is c.225lbs. So taking BF% from around the middle of 20-25%, gives us 175lbs lean mass, 50lbs fat. If you managed to drop 30lbs of fat and retain muscle, you’d be around 10% at 195lbs.
I’m not saying that the 30 lbs loss direct route is possible, but this gives you a point of reference for where you are trying to go. Fat loss is the biggest task right now, so you should cut first.


*If 20-25 is just a rough guess, then you could be a even higher. Given you are “as weak as a kitten”, its likely that you are. Which reinforces the now first plan.

Minatauro wrote: »

I am interested in the german volume training and would possibly prefer this over starting strength as if i eat less i may not be able to have energy for the heavier lifts of starting strength.

GVT looks like a far tougher program from an energy point of view.

Theresalwaysone

Any sort of real volume on a calorie deficit for a beginner leads to such a high probability of failing its crazy.

No matter how determined you are, there will be blips and goin the volume and deficit route will mean a severe lack of consistency.

Organising your diet and workouts in such a way that you consistently train and eat right and feel good will give much better results.

Consistency is so very very important.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

GVT is something to do once you have a solid base, and can life reasonable numbers, you also need good ability to recover fast and tolerance for extreme discomfort both during and after training. Jumping into GVT would be a killer.

Start on program get your muscles and nerves used to the movements. You will make big gains in weighs lifted from improved neuromuscular coordination. Eat good food, cut alochol (if not great in its own right, but it makes you eat crap and skip training when taken in excess), cut out takeaways etc. Have a cheat now and then, but remember its what you do most of the time that counts not what you do occasionally.

Decide what your ideal weight is after a few months, depends on how you carry weight, your muscle mass etc. I have met people the same height as me who were fat at 75kg and fit looking at 90kg, it depends on so many factors.

I watched this last night on the recommendation of another thread, and I have to say I was impressed buy the chap, the program he used and the advice about being "ripped" and or "shredded"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xu1hNgAp2E

Minatauro

I actually watched that myself last night and it was interesting and motivating. As I would consider myself similar to stuart at present I guess I would have to follow the same principles. If I did the stronglifts 5x5 while eating cleaner and slowly reducing the calories over time it would probably be easier to be consistent.

Ive only started in the gym so in relation to most others in the free weights section i would be weak.

e.g
Squat - 80kg (5x5)
Bench - 50kg (5x5)
Barbell row - 60kg (5x5)
overhead press -40kg (5x5)
Deadlift (not tested yet)

I will give these a go and see how I get on. The diet is already underway. Ive cut out bread completely as well as anything sugary and only drink once a month or less.

breakfast = Porridge made on milk (dont like it made on water)
lunch = salad. 1/2 the plate is meat such as roast beef/turkey/chicken/ham the rest is boiled eggs x2, lettuce, beetroot, half spoon of coleslaw, spoon of pasta.
dinner = large plate of mixed veg and meat e.g mince/ chicken/ turkey
snack = scrambled egg (4eggs)
plenty of water.

I think this is decent but is it too little or still too much?. I havent attempted to work out measurements of maintenance or deficit calories.Would c 2 5k be a no go at the same time?
thanks for all the help so far.

JJayoo

5 x 5 is a nice rep range to nail the correct form on lifts, but it would also be a good idea to add in some higher rep exercises to compliment your main lifts. Pumping a muscle full of blood is aways an excellent motivator.

dor843088

Minatauro wrote: »

I actually watched that myself last night and it was interesting and motivating. As I would consider myself similar to stuart at present I guess I would have to follow the same principles. If I did the stronglifts 5x5 while eating cleaner and slowly reducing the calories over time it would probably be easier to be consistent.

Ive only started in the gym so in relation to most others in the free weights section i would be weak.

e.g
Squat - 80kg (5x5)
Bench - 50kg (5x5)
Barbell row - 60kg (5x5)
overhead press -40kg (5x5)
Deadlift (not tested yet)

I will give these a go and see how I get on. The diet is already underway. Ive cut out bread completely as well as anything sugary and only drink once a month or less.

breakfast = Porridge made on milk (dont like it made on water)
lunch = salad. 1/2 the plate is meat such as roast beef/turkey/chicken/ham the rest is boiled eggs x2, lettuce, beetroot, half spoon of coleslaw, spoon of pasta.
dinner = large plate of mixed veg and meat e.g mince/ chicken/ turkey
snack = scrambled egg (4eggs)
plenty of water.

I think this is decent but is it too little or still too much?. I havent attempted to work out measurements of maintenance or deficit calories.Would c 2 5k be a no go at the same time?
thanks for all the help so far.

Whether you had porridge or pop tarts for breakfast makes no difference post your calories and macros (use myfitnesspal) for that diet someone might be able to help you sort it out. Otherwise you will just get the old eat clean train hard bull**** which is a complete stab in the dark at best.

Minatauro

Yeah thats why part of me was looking at the gvt. Although lifting lighter weights I get more of that pumped feeling in the muscles but when doing the heavier for less reps I do be exhausted but dont get the same pumped feeling. Its more of a feeling that the muscle gets weak and gives out which is less motivating.

JJayoo

At this stage it's all about seeing the gym as a positive part of your life. In the gym are you doing full body workouts or split workouts? and realistically how many days per week will you be in the gym?

davyjose

JJayoo wrote: »

People are complicating things. Just clean up your diet and get your hole in the gym tomorrow. Plenty of time to focus on a specific program once you have a routine(actually going to the gym/other exercise) nailed down.

So much this. Something I'm guilty of myself. OP, you're not 20-25% bodyfat because you aren't doing the right program. It's because going to the gym isn't a feature in your life.

tupac_healy

JJayoo wrote: »

People are complicating things. Just clean up your diet and get your hole in the gym tomorrow. Plenty of time to focus on a specific program once you have a routine(actually going to the gym/other exercise) nailed down.

This man!

I used to be like that, id sit down and make out everything I WANTED to do rather than doing it! I totally agree with the above, do ANYTHING to start with and taylor your program as you go. Have a goal in mind (as you do) and start not tomorrow, TODAY man!

The Guvnor

Don't worry about your bodyfat now or later.

Are you doing any training at the minute and if so what?

I'll assume not much training atm?

My advice would be get back to activity - gym, 5-a-side whatever it might be - get into the routine for a few weeks and pay attention to your diet as in what are you eating keep a log.t

Don't go all in at the start imo - reducing calories and increasing activity from a cold start is not a good idea - easy to chuck it in etc.

After a few weeks dial in your diet a bit and perhaps work it srict for say 3-4 weeks and then look at 5 tight diet days per week with 2 a little bit looser.

In terms of 14st at single digit - it does not really matter - don't sweat the detail just get back to it and have some fun.

Keep us upto date with your progress.

tupac_healy

The Guvnor wrote: »

Don't worry about your bodyfat now or later.

Are you doing any training at the minute and if so what?

I'll assume not much training atm?
O
My advice would be get back to activity - gym, 5-a-side whatever it might be - get into the routine for a few weeks and pay attention to your diet as in what are you eating keep a log.t

Don't go all in at the start imo - reducing calories and increasing activity from a cold start is not a good idea - easy to chuck it in etc.

After a few weeks dial in your diet a bit and perhaps work it srict for say 3-4 weeks and then look at 5 tight diet days per week with 2 a little bit looser.

In terms of 14st at single digit - it does not really matter - don't sweat the detail just get back to it and have some fun.

Keep us upto date with your progress.

Great advice, especially the part about easing yourself back in slowly, totally agree. Thats how im making changes, little bit at a time.

Minatauro

Hi,

Yeah I started the stronglifts 5x5 last night. Last week was about experimenting on the different lifts to judge weight and form.
I have been eating decent for the last 2 weeks. No bread, no alcohol, no junkfood. Im not starving myself but Im not eating as much as I did and I feel better for it already. No temptation for crap even though the press can be full of cakes and biscuits etc.

I downloaded the 5x5 spreadsheet to keep a record of how im doing.
Day 1.
Squats - 90kg
Bench - 50kg
barbell row - 50k

I struggled to get the last few reps out in each but after a short while i felt a little more could be done. I feel could do more like throw in a few more flyes for chest or pulldowns for back. Is this worth it or too much too soon?

Thanks for help so far. Aiming to try get in a bit of 5 a side with other guys in fitness log also.