Should We Really Clean Out the Copper?

EWQuinn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qbMuknl677A#at=446

Todd Hodnett, well known US shooting instructor and long range shooter. Some interesting points made.

tomcat220t

EWQuinn wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qbMuknl677A#at=446

Todd Hodnett, well known US shooting instructor and long range shooter. Some interesting points made.

Hi EWQuinn,
Some good points alright, but are we really getting out all the copper anyway?
Without the benefit of a good bore scope its hard to tell what exactly is been left or removed from a bore after cleaning ,imo.
Ive had a good few custom makes of barrel and after cleaning my poa @200 yards would have very little change for the first 2-3 fouling shots from a clean bore .A less well finished factory barrel would be a different story !
Id say ,depends a lot on the inside finish of a barrel .
The best clean bore/cold bore shooting barrel i ever shot was a lothar Walther match barrel .
Regards,Tomcat.

Cass

As with tomcat220t i've had my fair share of custom barrels. All of them shot better when cleaned of all copper.

I had the barrel bore scoped every few months and one thing stood out in all them. Although my cleaning technique worked well the one area that always had remnants of copper was the final 4 inches or so of the barrel to the muzzle end. This was down to the solvents being used and by the time i "pushed" them down the 32" of barrel the amount of solvents being applied to the last 4 inches was minimal so the cleaning effect was less.

I solved this by using a foam which was applied at the muzzle, and the solvents from the bore as normal.

I cleaned my rifle regularly. I had zero shift in point of impact at any distance out to 1,000 yards from a clean/cold bore to one that has fired 60-70 rounds. However after this or if i left uncleaned i would notice a subtle difference (usually less than an moa) but the only thing different would be the dirty barrel .Cleaning resolved this.


So imo a clean barrel is better for accuracy from a custom barrel barrel point of view.

Now when it comes to factory rifle/barrels i'd say it depends on the make/brand. I've had CZ, Savage, Anschutz, Remmy, Steyr, etc. Then CZ was the one that preferred a slightly dirty barrel, as was the Remmy. The Steyr was never shot enough to know the difference, and the Anschutz was a rimfire so copper was not an issue. However it did prefer to be shot dirty. So after cleaning i could use 25-40 rounds to get the "tightening" of groups.


The most accurate barrel i've have was the Bartlein that is currently still on my old target rifle. Unbelievable barrel. It cost more than regular Bartlein barrels but the difference is visible in it.

EWQuinn

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi EWQuinn,
Some good points alright, but are we really getting out all the copper anyway?
Without the benefit of a good bore scope its hard to tell what exactly is been left or removed from a bore after cleaning ,imo.
Ive had a good few custom makes of barrel and after cleaning my poa @200 yards would have very little change for the first 2-3 fouling shots from a clean bore .A less well finished factory barrel would be a different story !
Id say ,depends a lot on the inside finish of a barrel .
The best clean bore/cold bore shooting barrel i ever shot was a lothar Walther match barrel .
Regards,Tomcat.

I dont have the answers, i.e. I'm not sure. I guess the easy answer it is "situationally dependent", as you & Cass seem to be saying. Since many here shoot high end guns, some for F-class competition etc, I thought I would post here for info and opinions. I shoot some surplus guns with rougher bores, so I fear copper build up. On my more "accurate" guns, I don't seem to be having any major trouble once the barrel is fouled.

tomcat220t

EWQuinn wrote: »

I dont have the answers, i.e. I'm not sure. I guess the easy answer is it is "situationally dependent". Since many here shoot high end guns, some for F-class competition etc, I thought I would post here for info and opinions. Thx

Hi EWQuinn, the reason i ask is i dont believe most bore cleaners remove every last bit of copper from a barrel without heavy and long scrubbing .Id know after a few outings and cleanings what each of my barrel likes and look for a happy medium between a mint unfired barrel and a seasoned barrel .Something has gone wrong(imo) if a barrel needs hours of scrubbing to removing all the copper or fouling .
Id try have a clean barrel but never to an extent to leave it as if new ..if that makes sense .
I think all barrels need some little bit of seasoning ..be it only 1 or 2 shots if bore was scrubbed out mint , to not have some poa shift .
Regards,Tomcat

EWQuinn

In my opinion, Hoppes #9 does a fair job because what copper I CAN see in the muzzle end of the barrel diminishes greatly after cleaning. I let it sit a while, then run the patches and it does pretty well (after most of the carbon is out). However without a bore scope, not sure what is really happening. I have Sweets 7.62, but only want to use that occasionally. Would try the KG copper killer, but frankly have too many solvents on the shelf and want to wait before I buy a new one. This whole discussion is something to take note of for future testing though.

tomcat220t

Hi EWQuinn, i use pro shot copper solvent ,KG2 ,brunox ,and gun scrubber with pro shot one piece rod ,pro shot patches , pro shot bronze brushes and bore guide .
I found over the years that the above works best for my method of cleaning .
Regards ,Tomcat.

FISMA

Does anyone here shoot a K31? The K31 are notorious for "sweating" copper.

No matter how well I clean it before storing, six months later, before shooting, a clean patch comes out copper blue/green.

I used to think that the copper would seep in to the metal when it was hot, then later, sweat out as the metal cooled and contracted.

Then I read where color, such as that on a patch, can occur due to a layer on the barrel that is only microns thick.

Also, I have to wonder if there are trace amounts of copper used in the manufacturing of barrels and whether this could attribute to copper color showing in a clean barrel after months of storage.

Cass

This is why when asked about cleaning i stress the importance of having clean WET patches.

I've seen many lads running dry patches down the barrel during the cleaning process which wipes away the solvent, and dries the remaining solution in the barrel. Meaning your dry patch comes out dry and no dirt because any fouling has dried. Nor been cleaned away.

Keep patching the barrel out using wet patches and when the patches run wet and clean then dry or buff.

Another point is take your time. It may take a couple of "attempts" to clean a barrel thoroughly. The first attempt may take of the majority or a "layer" of copper fouling. However if it removes it in "layers" then it may take a few attempts so don't be in a hurry. Pick a day/time when you are not rushing or interrupted by other distractions.

zeissman

My rifles also shoot well after cleaning with copper solvent.
To be honest I dont really see any signs of copper when I clean my lothar walther 204 or my sako trg.
My sako 85 6.5x55 will show a lot of copper fouling when I clean it but it will shoot well after cleaning.
I had a sako 75 6.5x55 that was the same so maybe its something to do with the long bullets and 1/8 twist.
My mates remmy 220 swift needs about 15 fouling shots after cleaning before groups tighten up again.

Cass

You could have a point there.

A 155 gr .308 bullet has a much smaller bearing surface than a 220 gr 308 bullet. Also the 155 usually goes down a 1:13 - 1:12 barrel where as a 220 would be used in a 1:8 - 1:9 twist barrel.

Meaning you have a larger bearing surface spending longer in contact with the bore of the barrel meaning more copper transfer is possible. Same applies for other calibers.


However, as said above, it is also down to the finish of the barrel, cleaning technique, efficiency, etc.

A small deposit of copper in certain barrels may be of benefit, but no matter whether the gun prefers to fire clean or dirty only so much copper can be tolerated. Leave it long enough and you have a cumulative effect that will effect accuracy.