advice dj'ing with ableton and gear to get etc...

shane9689

Hey everyone,

So im looking to start djing *pause for hoard of know it all's trying to smash the newbie into submission*

but in all seriousness, i am, and not your typical "i want to start djing because it looks easy and im retarded"

ive been producing for about 6 months now and ive learned loads in that time. im also a musician and im studying music at uni at the moment, so im not clueless. Ive gotten to a stage where i want to perform some of the electronic music im producing

i use ableton live, korg padkontrol, microkorg synth and m-audio fast track pro (crap i know, but i got it free!)

anyways, i wanted to start dj'ing
ive already started looking up tutorials etc... and my best option for what i want to do would be to use ableton live for my dj'ing as i want play some of my own stuff aswell

to be honest, im not fully sure what direction ill take with this but learning to dj with ableton seems like my first step

ive been messing around and got some stuff together, and i have the software end sorted more or less i think, i just need a mixer and other gear etc for basically using as a midi controller i guess? so i can cue tracks and add effects etc....
or should i start by using different software such as virtual dj or something similar?

long story short, theres so many avenues to take with all this and im not sure where to go or what external gear ill need or will want....any advice?

hope this all makes sense, finding it hard to articulate myself here

ironclaw

APC40 is probably the best allrounder. You have clip launch, knobs and faders in one package. You will then need a decent sound card to match. Should be all you need to perform using Ableton.

I know your not clueless, but Ableton isn't really 'DJ' software. So you don't really DJ with it par se.

shane9689

i realise that...but the reason i want to use is if im playing my own stuff i could play live in a sense? not really dj'ing...well it is, but with my own music, and just throw some other stuff in to mix it up...,or i might get other software and move in between...to be honest i havent fully planned this out yet, im just checking my options and what equipment ill need with each option

thanks for the advice though, ill look into the apc40, sounds like what i was looking for

slpower01

I would recommend traktor but that is just me. At the moment you can get the audio 2 dj soundcard with full version of traktor for 99euro. Then I would google "midi fighter" and watch how people dj with that... then with some creative mapping you could do something really nice with that padkontrol using the xy pad as effects etc. Its not your typical dj setup but with it you can still use the traktor remix decks as ableton sample slots (you get 64 sample slots per deck if you want).

shane9689

awesome replies, just what i was looking for...thanks guys!

yeah, i ****ing suck at mapping the korg though, its software is a bitch to understand with a crap manual (for me atleast)

ill figure it though. thanks

slpower01

If you get traktor, the mapping is done in traktor, send me a message and ill assist. I know the software inside out

shane9689

slpower01 wrote: »

If you get traktor, the mapping is done in traktor, send me a message and ill assist. I know the software inside out

Cheers man!

ill probably buy it this week along with some gear, ill get the demo first though
have a decent income this summer playing piano gigs at restraunts so might aswell kickstart this plan while the cash is floating around

so i might pm you later this week if i run into any problems if thats cool

then after i figure all this out ill start my ableton plan with my original stuff

Christen.a

By the the sounds of what you are wanting to achieve I would definitely suggest using traktor within your set up. There are lots of great software specific controllers made by Native Instruments themselves, the Traktor Kontrol F1 would be ideal for you by the sounds of things, as you can trigger your own sounds and put together live performances using your own samples on the fly whilst still being able to mix ready produced tracks. I've bought all my DJ equipment from these guys over the years and they've been good so it might be worth giving them a try as they always seem to do a deal when i can them www.getinthemix.com

shane9689

is this what you mean chirsten http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC3PBTeMvzQ?

looks like an idea

theres just sooooo much to choose from, i think iv narrowed down my list alot though

looks like ill be getting traktor along with either the ni kontrol f1 or the akai apc40 (probably the akai apc40, looks good)

is it possible to assign the cross fader and/or tempo to the kontrol f1 or apc40? without messing up the setup? or will i need an additonal traditional mixer? ...nooby questions i know, buts its hard to figure these things out when youre starting on a blank canvas

Dades

Christen.a banned for being a shill, btw.

slpower01

Because traktor updated and allows you to use any controller with the remix decks (I personally use a midi fighter.. google it and you can see one in action) It means you don't need the Native instruments f1 (which I think is over priced for what it is). Behringer have a controller out or coming out that is very similar and I would guess a LOT cheaper. "DJ CONTROLLER CMD DC-1 " from a quick search ive seen it priced at around €130, you still need a soundcard though so add in the €99 for the audio 2 dj, The F1 is around €250 but with that you still need the soundcard as well. If you are looking at the f1 route because of colour feedback I highly recommend you look up the midi fighter spectra as I recently got one, it worked out about 210 dollars delivered and then 32euro for customs so €190 give or take and is custom designed how you want it.

was.deevey

I use Ableton for DJ'ing and an APC40 and it really does do everything that you need it to IF you roughly prep your set beforehand.

The big letdown for straight up DJ'ing is the browser BUT you can load hundreds of tracks into it beforehand (I set up various color coded areas) before playing and have them ready at your fingertips at any given time so unless you are doing a set where you really need to be searching for what to play next its not that big a deal.

Seeing as you already have Ableton and already familiar with it I'd probably be saying stick with it chop up your tracks throw them into the grid and the possibilites are endless if you

IN saying that traktor is worth a looksie with the remix decks being opened up .. but have yet to find the perfect controller for me .. (yet).

shane9689

sooo many choices,...im getting a headache....i think ill go for traktor though...i know what you mean deevey, i watched tutorials and saw how it was done and its really good for using with original tracks, but i feel its a little less tedious using traktor on the fly (maybe, i dunno)

soo many options, getting confused again, went from not knowing enough to knowing too much

i might aswell get traktor and see if it works, and if not, i still have ableton anyways, so ill decide then.....

ill just make a decision now and go for the apc40 along with some simple mixer and leave it at that

slpower01

was.deevey wrote: »

I use Ableton for DJ'ing and an APC40 and it really does do everything that you need it to IF you roughly prep your set beforehand.

The big letdown for straight up DJ'ing is the browser BUT you can load hundreds of tracks into it beforehand (I set up various color coded areas) before playing and have them ready at your fingertips at any given time so unless you are doing a set where you really need to be searching for what to play next its not that big a deal.

Seeing as you already have Ableton and already familiar with it I'd probably be saying stick with it chop up your tracks throw them into the grid and the possibilites are endless if you

IN saying that traktor is worth a looksie with the remix decks being opened up .. but have yet to find the perfect controller for me .. (yet).

Have you looked at the midi fighter ?? (I don't work for them or anything but just love the controller haha) would really recommend it

was.deevey

Have you looked at the midi fighter ?? (I don't work for them or anything but just love the controller haha) would really recommend it

I'm a regular on the forum - I'm not a cue juggler though and need faders/EQ's per channel so its just not for me TBH.

I'll map the APC for Traktors remix decks when I get some free time, and see if it makes more sense than it did before - the APC is less than ideal for traktor though (fantastic for Ableton) so might swap to Allen and Heath K2's or Livid Cntrl-R, or maybe some of the Behringers in the near future.

but I feel its a little less tedious using traktor on the fly

If you want zero prep work, yeah - traktor is definitely the way to go.

shane9689

made my final decision to buy the apc40, just gonna look for a decent retailer (i dont support thomann simply because theyre in competition with someone i know)

better sticking with what i know and get tracktor after i get good with this


thanks for all the help guys...ill probably be back around once i get it and dont know how to use it haha, although it looks relatively simple

shane9689

slpower01 wrote: »

I would recommend traktor but that is just me. At the moment you can get the audio 2 dj soundcard with full version of traktor for 99euro. Then I would google "midi fighter" and watch how people dj with that... then with some creative mapping you could do something really nice with that padkontrol using the xy pad as effects etc. Its not your typical dj setup but with it you can still use the traktor remix decks as ableton sample slots (you get 64 sample slots per deck if you want).

youre right about the padkontrol, started mapping it there for the craic because im getting anxious waiting for the apc40, and its awesome fun to play around with

was.deevey

I don't support thomann simply because theyre in competition with someone i know

I'd get "the-someone-I-know" to try and get me one at a same/better price then.....and tell them to f-off if they start moaning about it

You wont be sorry you got one though, great fecking unit - I'm really hoping that they bring out an updated version sometime in the near future that has note mode/RGB pads, but it might conflict too much with Akai's own "Push".

mordeith

shane9689 wrote: »

made my final decision to buy the apc40, just gonna look for a decent retailer (i dont support thomann simply because theyre in competition with someone i know)

You're in Cork right? The ProMusica site has the APC40 listed for €389. Thomann is €349 plus €15 shipping so you'd be looking at a price difference of
€25. Worth that to support a local business.

was.deevey

€25. Worth that to support a local business.

Worth the local business matching the price to get the business in the first place;)

Also If I remember right shipping is free on orders over 300 euro on Thomann?

Just saying :cool:

mordeith

was.deevey wrote: »

Worth the local business matching the price to get the business in the first place;)

Also If I remember right shipping is free on orders over 300 euro on Thomann?

Just saying :cool:

Looks like its free on anything over €199.
It would be impossible for a small local business to match the prices of Thomann but I'm sure they'd be willing to negotiate.

shane9689

problem with thomann, is theyre a wholesaler, so theyl always be cheaper or equal no matter what small business do... my uncle owns a music store, but he customizes, repairs and sets up the instruments, aswell as getting in irish made stuff. gives him an edge over thomann but he doesnt have a dealership with akai.

anyways, i was talking to someone who'll sell me a second hand one for alot cheaper. think i should get it? its in more or less good condition according to him. all the parts in working order. would the faders wear on the apc40 like they would on an ordinary mixer?

yeah, i would do that mordeith, but im not in cork for the summer and theres no audio technology stores around where i live at the moment

was.deevey

would the faders wear on the apc40 like they would on an ordinary mixer?

Yes they do, but if its in good condition and not abused there shouldn't be any probs (I bought mine S/H), crossfader is the only thing that "might" be an issue if it was in heavy use but its replaceable by popping 2 screws underneath the unit.

problem with thomann, is theyre a wholesaler, so theyl always be cheaper or equal no matter what small business do

They are a retailer not a wholesaler ... however appreciate where you are coming from the online retail market is damaging mom-and-pop's stores, however they have a number of physical bricks and mortar stores as well with the same overheads (and more) than your uncle. They started small way back in 1954

Good business sense would say adapt and move on rather than blame the competition for "stealing" business.

shane9689

was.deevey wrote: »

Yes they do, but if its in good condition and not abused there shouldn't be any probs (I bought mine S/H), crossfader is the only thing that "might" be an issue if it was in heavy use but its replaceable by popping 2 screws underneath the unit.

Thanks, ill have a look at it next week and buy it if its all working

They are a retailer not a wholesaler ... however appreciate where you are coming from the online retail market is damaging mom-and-pop's stores, however they have a number of physical bricks and mortar stores as well with the same overheads (and more) than your uncle. They started small way back in 1954

Good business sense would say adapt and move on rather than blame the competition for "stealing" business.

never said they were "stealing" business...and i dont have that opinion that you are trying to imply, dont put words in my mouth. i only said they were competition, and they are. i never blamed online retail, my uncle uses online retail alot too, gets alot of international sales that way, but thomann are able to sell their gear alot cheaper because they dont have to go through a wholesaler like the other music stores in ireland. i wish every business could do that, but they just dont have the buying power. All im saying is i prefer to purchase elsewhere as to avoid giving thomann the monopoly

shane9689

Thanks, ill have a look at it next week and buy it if its all working
i can always change the parts like you said

was.deevey

If you can, install Midi Monitor on your laptop and check for random midi data is being sent when both stationary and after a pot or fader as been moved. Its a pretty surefire way to know if pots or faders are knackered.

slpower01

Yeah I bought most of my gear second hand only issue I had was on my reloop midi controller the play pause and cue buttons were dodgy, I took it apart and used compressed air to blow out any dirt, now they are perfect.

Now about the comment with thomann ... I personally go anywhere that is cheaper, I tend to avoid a lot of Irish stores as the mark up is just way too high. I tried to purchase a saw off an Irish website and it was nearly 2000 I got the same saw from England shipped and all for less then 1000 the Irish site said 3 week delivery, theEnglish had it here in 4 days. If they want us to buy local they need to give us decent prices and not try and make a 400% profit on every sale.

shane9689

slpower01 wrote: »

Yeah I bought most of my gear second hand only issue I had was on my reloop midi controller the play pause and cue buttons were dodgy, I took it apart and used compressed air to blow out any dirt, now they are perfect.

Now about the comment with thomann ... I personally go anywhere that is cheaper, I tend to avoid a lot of Irish stores as the mark up is just way too high. I tried to purchase a saw off an Irish website and it was nearly 2000 I got the same saw from England shipped and all for less then 1000 the Irish site said 3 week delivery, theEnglish had it here in 4 days. If they want us to buy local they need to give us decent prices and not try and make a 400% profit on every sale.

haha well guns are whole different market completely...its probably because of the lack of demand for shotguns in ireland

slpower01

shane9689 wrote: »

haha well guns are whole different market completely...its probably because of the lack of demand for shotguns in ireland

Lol it was a saw not a sawn off shot gun haha.

shane9689

slpower01 wrote: »

Lol it was a saw not a sawn off shot gun haha.

ohh right....ehm nevermind then haha

shane9689

bought the apc40, its class! only downside is all the prep work i have to do with my tracks, but once i get that down, its all uphill

cheers for all the help guys

slpower01

shane9689 wrote: »

bought the apc40, its class! only downside is all the prep work i have to do with my tracks, but once i get that down, its all uphill

cheers for all the help guys

I could see the apc being fun with traktor :-O

was.deevey

Could see the apc being fun with traktor :-O

Alot less than you'd think .. Good for the remix deck and FX control alright, but as a main interface it kinda sucked, everything was just SO far away from being intuitive.

@shane9689

Heres a little something for you attached... An Ableton DJ template which consists of 4x4 channels and is basically "foolproofed" for gigging. Something out of the box the APC is not. (Who the hell was the smart arse who decided the play/STOP/record buttons would be great within 1/2 an inch of a crossfader).

Channels 1-4 are "DJ decks"
Cannels 5-8 are Sample Decks which take an in from their respective 1-4 counterparts and will record when buttons on the grid are pressed.

What this means is you can:
a) sample into slots.
b) Add an effect onto channel 5 and xfade between it and non effected track on channel1.

Track control knob operate based on a 1/5 2/6 3/7 4/8

So if you eq Ch1 you are also eq'ing Ch5 - it made sense to do it this way so their was no noticable change when xfading between effects.

Set to Pan = Gain/Bass and control and
Set to SendA = Mid/Top
Set to SendB = HP/LP filters\

Nudge = Pitch Bend /beatjump on the selected playing track (when quantize is set to none its bend).
Track selection Selects Active track on the channel.

Cue level = Cue/Master Fade rather than just a Volume knob.
Record/Arm = Stop
Clip Stop = Effects on/off
Solo/Cue = Cue

Play = Loop Active/Deactivate
Stop = Loop in
Rec = Loop out

There's 8 "kinda standard" effects on each channel - I could have gone with more, but found it was wayyyyyy too easy to switch to the wrong rack mid set (and hate needing to look intensely at whats going on with the interface).

So there's HP filter/Beat-repeat/Pitch up/Pitch down/Flanger/delay/reverb/fade2gray

The Scene Launch are mapped to Nothing - I use a Midi - keystroke emulator and use these keys for quantize values (midi stroke).

All the Effects are based on standard Ableton ones and if you have Max installed theres a very cool "already played" plugin in the rack as well.

Lots of room for improvement no doubt but might give you jump start - oh and it works in live lite as well (all channels s/r effects and clips surprisingly) but you can't save the set only drop stuff in every time you open it..

Its reasonably non-cpu intensive as well, no lagging or Crashing even when theres 400 full MP3's + 300 samples loaded onto the grid and playing non stop for hours on end And thats on a 5 year old macbook pro.

slpower01

Sounds pretty good... I know the feeling about the cross fader and play buttons... I have my play buttons mapped to a modifier on my reloop controller so I don't hit them by accident and stop the deck.

shane9689

was.deevey wrote: »

Alot less than you'd think .. Good for the remix deck and FX control alright, but as a main interface it kinda sucked, everything was just SO far away from being intuitive.

@shane9689

Heres a little something for you attached... An Ableton DJ template which consists of 4x4 channels and is basically "foolproofed" for gigging. Something out of the box the APC is not. (Who the hell was the smart arse who decided the play/STOP/record buttons would be great within 1/2 an inch of a crossfader).

Channels 1-4 are "DJ decks"
Cannels 5-8 are Sample Decks which take an in from their respective 1-4 counterparts and will record when buttons on the grid are pressed.

What this means is you can:
a) sample into slots.
b) Add an effect onto channel 5 and xfade between it and non effected track on channel1.

Track control knob operate based on a 1/5 2/6 3/7 4/8

So if you eq Ch1 you are also eq'ing Ch5 - it made sense to do it this way so their was no noticable change when xfading between effects.

Set to Pan = Gain/Bass and control and
Set to SendA = Mid/Top
Set to SendB = HP/LP filters\

Nudge = Pitch Bend /beatjump on the selected playing track (when quantize is set to none its bend).
Track selection Selects Active track on the channel.

Cue level = Cue/Master Fade rather than just a Volume knob.
Record/Arm = Stop
Clip Stop = Effects on/off
Solo/Cue = Cue

Play = Loop Active/Deactivate
Stop = Loop in
Rec = Loop out

There's 8 "kinda standard" effects on each channel - I could have gone with more, but found it was wayyyyyy too easy to switch to the wrong rack mid set (and hate needing to look intensely at whats going on with the interface).

So there's HP filter/Beat-repeat/Pitch up/Pitch down/Flanger/delay/reverb/fade2gray

The Scene Launch are mapped to Nothing - I use a Midi - keystroke emulator and use these keys for quantize values (midi stroke).

All the Effects are based on standard Ableton ones and if you have Max installed theres a very cool "already played" plugin in the rack as well.

Lots of room for improvement no doubt but might give you jump start - oh and it works in live lite as well (all channels s/r effects and clips surprisingly) but you can't save the set only drop stuff in every time you open it..

Its reasonably non-cpu intensive as well, no lagging or Crashing even when theres 400 full MP3's + 300 samples loaded onto the grid and playing non stop for hours on end And thats on a 5 year old macbook pro.

thanks man! ill try it out when i have the chance....i barely have time to warp all my tracks, nevermind actually practice doing this stuff....but ill check out your setup ideas, see how it works for me, cheers

was.deevey

i barely have time to warp all my tracks

If they are mostly 4/4 I would not bother warping them all beforehand and just drop them all your tracks (literally everything you think you might play) on the grid so there's a Ableton File created - this means you can load up a track at random and prevent slowdowns in the future. Let them analyze on their own (might take a while 1000 tracks took me about 2 hours) ... 90% of them will fine auto warped although you might want to change the warp type and the downbeat position. The rest just set the down beat and "warp from here straight" .. 99% of the time this works without further intervention (even with the majority of Rock/Pop tracks).

You will probably want to change the warp mode as well (highlight as many tracks as you want to do this at the same time if they are similar genre), I generally use formants @ 20 and envelope @ 240 is what I'll use almost always for House/progressive or synthy stuff, Tribal or Techno more drum orientated Stuff I tend to use Beats set at 1/8 transition back/forward and envelope @ 98 as it tends to sound less "dull" on the high end and more thump on the low end. (if you are using repitch mode it wont make a difference but you lose the option of mixing in key).

I do that live for the most part and doesn't take an age. Want to cut it up more, just duplicate the track multiple times and set the start point as somewhere different in the track and use them as you would multiple cue points on a CDJ or Traktor.