flyers?

sniperman

this might sound like a stupid question,but what causes flyers,is it me,the gun,or the ammno?been getting a lot on paper lately,i have a cz 455 hmr,using hornady 17 gr,red tip,thanks all..ps all screws are tight,the scope is new hawke 30 4-16x32, sak mod,well cleaned ect ect,thanks all

alalkovitch

There can be a variety of reasons for flyers, very little factory ammunition is up to the standard of a good hand load that was developed for a specific rifle. If you run factory ammunition over a chronograph you will find quite a variation in speed over a single box, the cheaper stuff would frighten you with the variations you will find.Also factory ammo is finished to an average setting, bullet seating etc and one brand may be tighter or looser in a rifles chamber causing a particular brand to shoot better or worse than another...the quality of powder and primers is another critical factor, a lot of the cheaper ammo comes from Eastern Europe sources and while quality of components is essential so is storage method and you will sometimes find a lot of slight pitting on the brass which leads to the conclusion that ammo was exposed to moisture during storage which can effect combustion. Also the length of time ammo is made is also another factor, I have seen factory Lapua from the same batch shoot slightly differently from one season to the next...
All these factors but especially the variation in speed will lead to an odd flyer but don't overlook the quality of your scope and mounts especially if your using heavier calibre centre fires. The reticles in cheaper brand scopes have been known to move or fall apart under heavy recoil and the slightest movement in the hardware will lead to a different impact point...


Anyhow hope the above gives you a few ideas of where to start looking for a solution...


Al.

sniperman

alalkovitch wrote: »

There can be a variety of reasons for flyers, very little factory ammunition is up to the standard of a good hand load that was developed for a specific rifle. If you run factory ammunition over a chronograph you will find quite a variation in speed over a single box, the cheaper stuff would frighten you with the variations you will find.Also factory ammo is finished to an average setting, bullet seating etc and one brand may be tighter or looser in a rifles chamber causing a particular brand to shoot better or worse than another...the quality of powder and primers is another critical factor, a lot of the cheaper ammo comes from Eastern Europe sources and while quality of components is essential so is storage method and you will sometimes find a lot of slight pitting on the brass which leads to the conclusion that ammo was exposed to moisture during storage which can effect combustion. Also the length of time ammo is made is also another factor, I have seen factory Lapua from the same batch shoot slightly differently from one season to the next...
All these factors but especially the variation in speed will lead to an odd flyer but don't overlook the quality of your scope and mounts especially if your using heavier calibre centre fires. The reticles in cheaper brand scopes have been known to move or fall apart under heavy recoil and the slightest movement in the hardware will lead to a different impact point...


Anyhow hope the above gives you a few ideas of where to start looking for a solution...


Al.

hi mate,very interesting post,pity we cant load our own .17 hmr ammno:mad:

tomcat220t

sniperman wrote: »

this might sound like a stupid question,but what causes flyers,is it me,the gun,or the ammno?been getting a lot on paper lately,i have a cz 455 hmr,using hornady 17 gr,red tip,thanks all..ps all screws are tight,the scope is new hawke 30 4-16x32, sak mod,well cleaned ect ect,thanks all

Hi Sniperman ,is your barrel free floating ?Hornady ammo in general is accurate .Any pictures of groups ?
Regards ,Tomcat.

Cass

• Crown
• Mod
• Barrel
• Shooter
• Scope
• Bipod
• Hold
• Breathing
• Techique

Most likely ammo as said above. When i chrono'd some rounds for the .308 i found over 200 fps spread between rounds of the same box. Had i not had the chrono i would have been searching for ages looking at all the above for problems that did not exist.

Sometimes we put too much faith in the fact that the ammo will be perfect (or close to it) each time.

As for the .17hmr. Even if reloading were a possibility the dangers and hassle of reloading rimfire is beyond belief. It's a gel type primer that is specially placed in the base of the case (i believe by spinning the case with the gel inside fir an even spread) and not your regular primer. The substance used is highly dangerous/ignitable.

So i'm lead to believe anyway. All the reports i've read on it say as much. Even experienced reloaders shy away from rimfires.

sniperman

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi Spiderman ,is your stock free floating ?Hornady ammo in general is accurate .Any pictures of groups ?
Regards ,Tomcat.

hi TC,have checked the float,thats ok,i am hitting bunnies with the hornady,but when i switch to paper,not that impressed,not getting the 1" groups some lads say,wont be out til weekend again,will put up a few pics,thanks,also getting a good few flyers.:mad:

sniperman

Cass wrote: »

• Crown
• Mod
• Barrel
• Shooter
• Scope
• Bipod
• Hold
• Breathing
• Techique

Most likely ammo as said above. When i chrono'd some rounds for the .308 i found over 200 fps spread between rounds of the same box. Had i not had the chrono i would have been searching for ages looking at all the above for problems that did not exist.

Sometimes we put too much faith in the fact that the ammo will be perfect (or close to it) each time.

As for the .17hmr. Even if reloading were a possibility the dangers and hassle of reloading rimfire is beyond belief. It's a gel type primer that is specially placed in the base of the case (i believe by spinning the case with the gel inside fir an even spread) and not your regular primer. The substance used is highly dangerous/ignitable.

So i'm lead to believe anyway. All the reports i've read on it say as much. Even experienced reloaders shy away from rimfires.

thanks cass,all the above list checked.all fine,gonna try a few brands of ammno,see what groups best,dont think ill be reloading then:D

tomcat220t

sniperman wrote: »

hi TC,have checked the float,thats ok,i am hitting bunnies with the hornady,but when i switch to paper,not that impressed,not getting the 1" groups some lads say,wont be out til weekend again,will put up a few pics,thanks,also getting a good few flyers.:mad:

Hi Sniperman ,was the rifle/ammo setup shooting before and just went bad or has it always be throwing flyers ? CZ 17 hmr ..that ive seen shoot about 1" @ 100 yards but on good calm days .Is the rifle new ?
Regards ,Tomcat.

vapour_trail

sniperman wrote: »

hi mate,very interesting post,pity we cant load our own .17 hmr ammno:mad:

It would be a waste of time even if it was legal. I buy Federal ammo in bulk, I get 250 for €75 and that does me about 5 or 6 months. My Cz loves Federal ammo and will shoot 1" all day at 100 yards. I have it set for 1" high at 100 and I head shoot bunnys out to 150 yards with ease. Try as many brands as you can to see what it likes.

zlezlius

sniperman wrote: »

this might sound like a stupid question,but what causes flyers,is it me,the gun,or the ammno?been getting a lot on paper lately,i have a cz 455 hmr,using hornady 17 gr,red tip,thanks all..ps all screws are tight,the scope is new hawke 30 4-16x32, sak mod,well cleaned ect ect,thanks all

When you say well cleaned, does that include Sak mod as well? 17 HMR is very "dirty" round and if mod not cleaned in a while there will be a lot of unburned powder and other stuff gathered in it, especialy at the very end of it. That will cause flyers, I know that from my own personal expierence. Obviously if your mod clean thats not the case.

sniperman

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi Spiderman ,was the rifle/ammo setup shooting before and just went bad or has it always be throwing flyers ? CZ 17 hmr ..that ive seen shoot about 1" @ 100 yards but on good calm days .Is the rifle new ?
Regards ,Tomcat.

hi tc,ya its shot flyers from day one,ive also shot a good few bunnies,some good head shots,then ive missed a good few too when i know i should have got them,flyers maybe?its when i do a bit of paper punching,im not getting those 1" groups,maybe 2 out of 6 on bull,the rest well outside bull,some up t 2 1/2"......the gun is 3 months old bought from new:),maybe im asking too much from the gun,but id expect at least 4 out of 6 to be on target???

sniperman

zlezlius wrote: »

When you say well cleaned, does that include Sak mod as well? 17 HMR is very "dirty" round and if mod not cleaned in a while there will be a lot of unburned powder and other stuff gathered in it, especialy at the very end of it. That will cause flyers, I know that from my own personal expierence. Obviously if your mod clean thats not the case.

hi z,i regulaly clean the mod,just noticed though it is starting to erode in the chamber nearest the muzzel,just a bit,have 350 plus rounds through it,is that normal?and would that affect accuracy?

tomcat220t

sniperman wrote: »

hi tc,ya its shot flyers from day one,ive also shot a good few bunnies,some good head shots,then ive missed a good few too when i know i should have got them,flyers maybe?its when i do a bit of paper punching,im not getting those 1" groups,maybe 2 out of 6 on bull,the rest well outside bull,some up t 2 1/2"......the gun is 3 months old bought from new:),maybe im asking too much from the gun,but id expect at least 4 out of 6 to be on target???

Hi ,5 from 5 would be the norm @100 yards from what ive seen .What do you use to clean the bore with ?
Regards ,Tomcat.

sniperman

vapour_trail wrote: »

It would be a waste of time even if it was legal. I buy Federal ammo in bulk, I get 250 for €75 and that does me about 5 or 6 months. My Cz loves Federal ammo and will shoot 1" all day at 100 yards. I have it set for 1" high at 100 and I head shoot bunnys out to 150 yards with ease. Try as many brands as you can to see what it likes.

hi vt,only jokeing about the reloading thing:D,i cant buy in bulk,ive a limit of 100 rounds on the licence,i did ask for 500,seem to be getting a good responce to the federal,will try them soon;).im zeroed at 100yrds,might try your way,sounds good

alalkovitch

Give everything a real clean, I mean really soak the barrel and let sit, then throughly clean out and patch until they are spotless, then try 5 shots from a bench or other very stable platform using at least two different brands of ammo...if you not getting something decent in good conditions then you need to look at other thing such as the chamber itself, rings and scope...but remember that particular round is filthy so rifle will need to be thoroughly cleaned every 20 rounds or so for pin point accuracy...

sniperman

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi ,5 from 5 would be the norm @100 yards from what ive seen .What do you use to clean the bore with ?
Regards ,Tomcat.

5 from 5?god that would be good,in fact great,i clean with rod and patch,using kg 12,heard good things about that solvent,but i never see signs of copper fouling,i cleaned after 200 rounds aprox,its the first and only good clean its got,will clean again before i try the federal;)

sniperman

alalkovitch wrote: »

Give everything a real clean, I mean really soak the barrel and let sit, then throughly clean out and patch until they are spotless, then try 5 shots from a bench or other very stable platform using at least two different brands of ammo...if you not getting something decent in good conditions then you need to look at other thing such as the chamber itself, rings and scope...but remember that particular round is filthy so rifle will need to be thoroughly cleaned every 20 rounds or so for pin point accuracy...

hi al,god ive seen so many opinions on cleaning.its mind boggling,some dont clean at all,some very often,i like a clean gun,every 20 rounds seems to go against the grain of alot of hmr owners,but maybe you have a point,i cant see a dirty barrel shooting good,but im open to correction:D

alalkovitch

Well if your shooting bunnies with body shots you'll never see the difference but that barrel will be filthy after a few rounds...I have had .17 in rim and centre fire plus have .204 at present and with all these small, fast rounds fouling is a huge problem...my .17 centre fire will spit rounds everywhere after 20 or so rounds...grand out to 100 yards but after that pure luck where it ends up...also to be honest the quality of so many things comes into play after 100 odd yards, every little degree of weakness in scope, mounts or ammo is exaggerated after 100 yards but most factory rifles will group 1" without a problem at 100... Last thing to mention is the trigger, is there any chance it's causing you to pull slightly or is it light and crisp to break...

tomcat220t

sniperman wrote: »

5 from 5?god that would be good,in fact great,i clean with rod and patch,using kg 12,heard good things about that solvent,but i never see signs of copper fouling,i cleaned after 200 rounds aprox,its the first and only good clean its got,will clean again before i try the federal;)

Hi sniperman,get some kg 2 bore cleaner .When you clean the bore as instructed patch it out with bore solvent spray .If its a fouling problem ..which id say it is ..kg2 will restore accuracy, but you need to get it all out after use .
Best of luck ,Tomcat.

Cass

did ya get a chance to clean and try her out?

sniperman

Cass wrote: »

did ya get a chance to clean and try her out?

hi cass,yes i gave it a good clean,tried some federal,seemed to group alot better than the hornady,so ill use feds for a while,see what happens:D

Cass

Whether it's the cleaning or simply the Federal are grouping better and it gives you more confidence in your shooting i'd say stick with them for the time being.

Dachipster

I second the trigger comment. Change of spring to lighten it up a bit and tube to knock the drag out of the trigger will transform the rifle.