advise needed,guards taken mates firearm

pheasntstalker

hi lads/lasses,i need advise bear with me,an il explain what i know,

A friend of mine had his firearm taken by the gaurds recently because one guard assumed he was suicidal, Now here is what happened, my mate attended my young lasses communion, had a drink with us (2 cans of carslberg) back at our house that evening, He then left with his wife to go to a forthith birthday party, He foned me from his wifes fone as he left his fone in our hse and he,d pick it up in the morning, Had a few beers as u do,and was in great form, He gave the wife his wallet to mind as he was wearing trackie bottoms( loose pockets) but his wife headed home early he stayed on but he said he had enough and was tired(he is a truck driver)

Now as he said and i know about, he is on prescipstion pills for a back injury and had taken his 2 that day and he forgot that he did an said didnt agree with alcohol, Easy mistake ive done it myself, He had no fone or money, so headed up town for a stroll dicideding what to do, On the way two lads stopped him and 1 asked for a smoke at the bridge over the canal, He had two left so he gave the lad 1 and lit the other for himself, had brief chat with lads an they went on there way, He paused at the bridge smoking just leaning on it ,two guards landed each side of him and asked him if he was ok, name where is he living,etc. He gave all ans politly and they said that a concerned taxi driver said that he saw a man about to jump into the canal. He said to the guard that no way would he do such a thing an joked with them how cold the water is. They asked him what he was doin at bridge and he told them that he,d met two lads who asked for a smoke gave 1 to them and just stopped coz he was tired and didnt go out that often, They asked him to come to the station which he did willingly and they tried to contact wife , She was in bed and didnt ans, so they gave him a cell to sleep in an explained that he wasnt in any trouble.

Cut to nxt morning he gave them his sisters no. as its the only other no. he knows off the top of his head. The guard rang the sister to collect him and my mate heard the guard say ' i think he is sucidel and depressed'. Now the firearms officer was on duty that nite, was there when the other guard said this to my mate's sister, He again told the guard he wasnt depressed or suicdel an wasnt gone to jump in, The sister told him when she came that the guard told her they are taking his gun, Now from the time the guards approched him the nite before was 12 clock at nite and it was 12 oclock the falling nite before they came out for the gun, and two ordainary guards came for the gun and just said to him you know why we,re here and they took gun and ammo,didnt give him a legal reason why they were taken it,

Now if the guards were that concerned for his mental state why did it take them 24hrs to go out an remove the gun if he was sucidel? He went home that morning when they let him out and was home all day he could have shot himself,and the two guards they sent out the following nite were clueless about firearms by his and his wifes acount and dont the guards have to give a legal reason for removeing a firearm from you,

I'm sorry this is long winded but i had to give all details so as to get advise, any advise please il get to the rest in an other post

Sulla Felix

Jesus, my first piece of advice is put some paragraphs in.

Second is, he needs to go talk to his FO.

Cass

Go and talk to his firearms officer/Garda in charge of Firearms.

Explain about the night before, his prescription, and the ill effect of taking them with alcohol. Explain there is no history of depression, no cause for depression, and the whole incident with the two Gardaí on the bridge was a simple misunderstanding.

All you can do it take it from there with regards to what the FO comes back with in terms of a remedy to this.


As for taking the gun. Never had it done so only going on best guess, but Gardaí have the power to remove any firearm at any time if they feel there is a credible threat to him or others. The delay could be down to manpower, appropriate & available personnel, etc.

pheasntstalker

thanks cass,sorry im still a caveman with computers but im getting there, rite he has spoken to the fo, and again explained that he wasnt suicidel or depressed and asked him when he can have his gun back, now the f.o explained that his licence wasnt revoked and that my friend has to get a letter from his docter and send in a letter stating that he is of sound state of mind and seek a meeting with the super via letter,as the super will probably want the see him anyway, and my friend asked him how long would it take then to which to f.o said about 6mths, it still begs the questions, my friend remembers every detail from the time talking to the guards at the bridge nxt morning etc,and was coherent,an cooperated with them , but what medically qualifys a guard to assume that someone is depressed or suicidel from talking to the person and 2 why if they were concerned for his welfare remove the gun 24hrs later and give no legal reason for taken it?

Cass

pheasntstalker wrote: »

thanks cass,sorry im still a caveman with computers but im getting there,

Don't sweat it.

........ now the f.o explained that his licence wasnt revoked .......

If a gun was seized, and the license revoked he would have had to be notified in writing to the same. The fact the FO said it was not is positive. They can seize the gun "for the moment" and if it turns out to be a mistake simply return it. If they revoke the license, and it turns out to be in error it causes all sot of problems.

and that my friend has to get a letter from his docter and send in a letter stating that he is of sound state of mind and seek a meeting with the super via letter,as the super will probably want the see him anyway,

Seems standard enough.

and my friend asked him how long would it take then to which to f.o said about 6mths,

That could be a result of lack of Supers. I've lost three in my district in the last year, and one that replaced them has also "gone". However i would speak again with the FO, give in the details he asked for, and then politely insist on a meeting sooner. That your mate should not be "punished" for an understandable, but rash action.

....... it still begs the questions, my friend remembers every detail from the time talking to the guards at the bridge nxt morning etc,and was coherent,an cooperated with them , but what medically qualifys a guard to assume that someone is depressed or suicidel from talking to the person and 2 why if they were concerned for his welfare remove the gun 24hrs later and give no legal reason for taken it?

The Gardaí will always air on the side of caution. No matter what is said to them. As for the delay i guessed to the causes for that above, but cannot give you a definite answer. Only they can.

TriggerPL

When did this happen ?

TriggerPL

Ur friend has 28 days to appeal to a district court , and if he doesn't he will have to re apply all over again ! Regardless of what the Garda says . Tell him see a solicitor tell her the Craic and get her to lodge an appeal !!

The cops will neglect to tell u this when revoking ur firearms !

And when he has his meeting with super make sure that he mentions that he has lodged an appeal !

One shot on kill

Ok sounds like a mess. Assuming everything was ok that nite which I'd say they were because canal bridges are not that big for the action in question. IMO.

Now I'm obviously not qualified to advise you but here's my thoughts. I would see the guard that brought him back to the station. And explain that he is not qualified to make those accusations, which have the ability to change the coarse of this guys life. Because every application asks these sort of questions.

Should the guard have gotten him a qualified person to examine him before he was let go. I would of thought so.

I wouldn't have it and I'd start creating a big ripple affect from the guards actions not only is it misleading its unprofessional and its a serious accusation to make.

Did the meds and the alcohol make a visible affect on his appearance or mood or did they just make him sick.

Cass

TriggerPL wrote: »

The cops will neglect to tell u this when revoking ur firearms !

You cannot appeal what has not happened.

If the guy has not gotten a letter to say his firearm(s) have been revoked then they are not so. In which case any legal appeal to them being revoked would be moot.

One shot on kill

But surely he can appeal officially in some way. Like saying noting happened they kept him over nite said he was suicidal and took his guns.

Ok his license wasn't revoked according to the FO but they took them so in my book its only a matter of time.

Something happened alright and he has to take serious action in my opninion

Cass

One shot on kill wrote: »

But surely he can appeal officially in some way.

Yes he can, by going to see the Super and putting his case forward.

Ok his license wasn't revoked according to the FO but they took them so in my book its only a matter of time.

There is the problem. It has not officially been revoked. So if he were to go over their heads and appeal it the Gardaí in his station merely say the gun was seized for safety reasons, but his license is not revoked. Thp chao would then be told to go speak to his local Gardaí to resolve it.

Much in the same way if you handed in an application for a firearm at a Garda Station and the Garda on the window said you'll never get a license. You take you application and believe you were refused. You cannot appeal this refusal because it never was refused. It never went through the proper channels and so is not logged as a refusal.

Same with this chap. He never received or has been told his guns were revoked, in fact he was told the opposite. So he cannot appeal a decision which has not been made.

Something happened alright and he has to take serious action in my opninion

The worst thing to do would be to go in "guns blazing" if you'll excuse the pun. This is a simple enough matter. Yes the Gardaí over reacted but for the best interests of the person involved. If, and i'm only putting forward a different scenario, the lad was suicidal and the Gardaí done nothing. Imagine the headlines, and sh*tstorm that would follow. "Gardaí allow suicidal man to keep firearms after holding him in cells".

They acted in the best interests at the time. The OP, and his mate know he was not suicidal, he was not depressed, but the Gardaí must figure this out via talking, and interviews. What's that old adage, better safe than sorry. As you point out they are not trained or qualified to make this decision so when in doubt they acted to the best of their abilities.

The other aspect, and again i'm only speculating, how many of you have been drunk and thought you were fine. The OP's mate might have felt fine, seemed fine to himself, but that does not mean he actually appeared fine to others. I know when i used to drink that during a "good" night out i thought i was perfectly fine however i could be slurring my words, talking all kinds of crap, and acting completely opposite to what i believed i was.


All i'm saying is the solution is an easy enough one. Supply the letter from the Doctor, and speak to the Super. If s/he is not satisfied then you can take if further. However go in with all sorts of threats, and anger, demanding the return of your gun will only serve to re-enforce the belief that the OP's mate is "unstable" and will hasten the revocation of the firearm.


Sometimes you don't need a sledge to crack a nut.

TriggerPL

Cass wrote: »

You cannot appeal what has not happened.

If the guy has not gotten a letter to say his firearm(s) have been revoked then they are not so. In which case any legal appeal to them being revoked would be moot.

I had my gun lifted after an verbal argument in a night club with a bouncer ! Guard said it would be for 3 weeks , this was in spring time of the year , I let it pass and said grand , I got a revoking letter dated the day I go it lifted the day I went in to get it back !

This was 3 weeks later left me with 7 days to get an appeal in only I had seek legal advice I'd of not known .

When it came to the court I get my gun back two day before it .

I wouldn't trust any of them and I'd have my homework done !

One shot on kill

Infairness cass your right.

I only said it in another thread the guards have to act yes tha I believe. In resolving the situation in the ways that you suggested ie interviews and letter and the likes is this just going to be a slow drawn out process. Which he doesn't deserve.

In taking the firearm is it a punishment or are they saying your incapable of holding a firearm safely. I have to say I wouldn't be waiting till they were ready to resolve it. Even if I didn't go down the sledge hammer road. I suppose don't sit around and wait do something but keep the head.

Ye I'd say were all guilty of thinking were grand when were not even sober sometimes.

meathstevie

There's been words like accusations and all used in here which I think are somewhat over the top.

After all what has happened is that a Garda, be it correctly or not, has spoken to a chap who appeared not to be doing the best at the time and he decided to have the chap's firearm removed because the Garda at the time wasn't satisfied with the man's mental state/wellbeing.

If this belief was correct or backed by medical evidence or knowledge at the time is somewhat irrelevant and that issue can be sorted afterwards. Gardai don't have the luxury of a consultant psychiatrist on speed dial when they initially feel someone is mentally under the weather and this feeling/observation must have been more than just a fleeting impression because otherwise the FO wouldn't have organised for the removal of the firearm from the house and that's quite likely also the reason why he was asked for someone to come and pick him up at the station after his night sleep rather than let him go home on his own.

I agree with the observation that 24 hours later isn't optimal but I firmly believe that similar actions have prevented people from reaching to probably the easiest means of completing a succesful suicide attempt and that this sort of Garda actions has no doubt prevented some suicides from happening.

In this man's case I personally think that the best option available is speak to the FO or the local Sergeant and find out why the decission to remove the firearm was made and how the firearm can be returned with the least possible hassle for everyone involved. I can well imagine this will involve the owner's GP and maybe a closer look at medical history.

I for one would definitely not consider courts and solicitors as a first port of call, after all the Gardai acted out of concern and did not mention anything of a criminal procedure nature is going to happen.

Cass

TriggerPL wrote: »

I had my gun lifted after an verbal argument in a night club with a bouncer ! Guard said it would be for 3 weeks , this was in spring time of the year , I let it pass and said grand , I got a revoking letter dated the day I go it lifted the day I went in to get it back !

This was 3 weeks later left me with 7 days to get an appeal in only I had seek legal advice I'd of not known .

When it came to the court I get my gun back two day before it .

Not being a dick, but in your situation there was an actual incident that precipitated the seizing of the gun (not casting blame or judgement here, just saying). You also received a letter informing you that the license was being revoked.

In this lads case it was a perception, and not an event that caused the gun to be seized. A preventative measure more than a consequence of an action. He has not received a letter, and has gotten assurances that no such letter will be forth coming if the few requirements are met.

I wouldn't trust any of them and I'd have my homework done !

With the above in mind i would agree on the being prepared point. Even, as in your case, you got a letter sent to you late, with the date the license was revoked rather than the date you received the letter you need not panic. A letter to state your intent to appeal lodged within the remaining time frame would suffice to keep your options open. Then proceed to get legal advice, and follow up the notice to appeal with evidence of why.


My point being, be prepared by all means but don't go "all in" from the off. In some circumstances the simplest approach is all that is required. So try it first. Especially as the Gardaí have provided an "out" to the OP's mate.

One shot on kill wrote: »

Infairness cass your right.

I only said it in another thread the guards have to act yes tha I believe. In resolving the situation in the ways that you suggested ie interviews and letter and the likes is this just going to be a slow drawn out process. Which he doesn't deserve.

No doubt, but don't be happy to sit back and wait weeks or months for a response. Be a constant presence to the Gardaí without getting their backs up.

In taking the firearm is it a punishment or are they saying your incapable of holding a firearm safely. I have to say I wouldn't be waiting till they were ready to resolve it. Even if I didn't go down the sledge hammer road. I suppose don't sit around and wait do something but keep the head.

Exactly.

Ye I'd say were all guilty of thinking were grand when were not even sober sometimes.

This is one of the "drawbacks" of being a firearm owner. We are subject, unfairly at times, to a higher level of scrutiny than other non firearm owning citizens.


As Meathstevie reiterated, don't go the hard route from the off, especially when other avenues of resolution have been presented.

Ghost.

meathstevie wrote: »

In this man's case I personally think that the best option available is speak to the FO or the local Sergeant and find out why the decission to remove the firearm was made and how the firearm can be returned with the least possible hassle for everyone involved. I can well imagine this will involve the owner's GP and maybe a closer look at medical history.

I for one would definitely not consider courts and solicitors as a first port of call, after all the Gardai acted out of concern and did not mention anything of a criminal procedure nature is going to happen.

Id agree with that but I think the man should write a polite letter to the FO requesting the reason in writing just in case it turns out to be more than concerned policemen and a simple misunderstanding. Just to make sure everything is straight and above board, and he might find there will be less messing around when its in writing.

The facts in a situation like this could end up being twisted very easily if the wrong sort of individual was dealing with it. And the man could up having no choice but to get a solicitor to try get his gun back. Best to be prepared for the worst.

BattleCorp

pheasntstalker wrote: »

, and my friend asked him how long would it take then to which to f.o said about 6mths,

There's something very very wrong with the system if it takes 6 months to get a 5 or 10 minute meeting with your Super.

pugw

Trigger PL is on the ball I'd talk to a solicitor or the NARGC!

pheasntstalker

ok lads have read most replies and advise given and i have already told him to follow what the firearms officer asked him to do i.e letter from his gp and a letter to get a meeting with the super which he is in the process of doin ,i shared some of the sentiments of some ops of getting legal advise and goin legal route but after some thought i reckon its not good to get the guards riled up, but tell him to ask to see the f.o and have a chat about that nite and clear up any misunderstanding and try and see the super sooner rather then later,he bears no resentment to the two guards and understands that they were only doin there jobs he just feels it was a bit harsh taken his gun, and as far as he was concerned he made a stupid mistake of taken painkillers for a backache and shouldnt have taken a drink,il keep ye informed of the outcome and thanks for all replies and advise but i think i firmly agree with cass,es advise and will pass it on to my mate, thanks again p.s

Cass

I can only repeat myself at this stage.

A solicitor is overkill, and somewhat redundant at this point. You CANNOT appeal something that has not happened. Go talk to one if it makes you feel better, but to employ a solicitor now is only wasting money on something that may not be necessary.

I will say again. Be prepared, be ready, and have your ducks in a row, but why go for the solicitors, barristers, appeals, court talk, etc. before you have even gotten definite word on what is happening.

As for the NARGC. They seem to have gotten a name recently for taking on everything/everyone. They will tell you pretty much the same as i have, and will advise you to try and resolve it amicably before going the legal route. That is of course if they even take the case. They do not take every case presented to them. They would be bankrupt if they did.

===================================================================================================

On a separate note, and with mod hat on.

To the OP. Take my advice or don't. Take others advice or don't. But be warned. DO NOTHING suggested above by ANYONE before thoroughly thinking out the consequences and more importantly the costs. This could become a very expensive lesson if handled wrong. IOW it could grow legs of it's own.

None of us are solicitors (afaik) but even if we were giving legal advice along the lines of what is being asked is not permitted on site for (funnily enough) legal reasons. Don't want anyone running off, doing something, based on what they were told here then blaming us (the site) for giving them poor/misguided advice.

bravestar

While I'm not going to comment on the incident itself as I wasn't there I will offer two insights into things that seem to be popping up.

Firstly, a night shift starts at 9pm and finishes at 7am. If the Garda was working nights, he would not of been back in until 9pm the next night. Hence the time delay.

Secondly, no garda is going to go creating extra work for himself unnecessarily these days. If it was taken, there was a genuine concern.

pheasntstalker

have read the big bold print cass , i would never take any thing on here as legal advise,and would not use this site as a legal ref point ever, i value advise/tips in genaral from fellow hunters/shooters and the craic etc, at the end of the day i sought advise for me to give my friend advise and i got the commonsense advise i needed here for that im gratefull to all here that replied, thanks again to all of you and i hope that my friend will be reunited what his gun and continue to enjoy our sport for many years to come regards p.s