golf question

squek

How long should a player be supended for after filling in a card for someone else and entering it into a comp. The other player never played.

OilBeefHooked2

squek wrote: »

How long should a player be supended for after filling in a card for someone else and entering it into a comp. The other player never played.

Forever isn't long enough, so I'd say forever and a day.

squek

david-k wrote: »

Forever isn't long enough, so I'd say forever and a day.

Did u ever come across something like this.

OilBeefHooked2

squek wrote: »

Did u ever come across something like this.

Similar yes.

squek

david-k wrote: »

Similar yes.

And how long of a supension did they get . Im captain of a club and im dealing with it tonite.

OilBeefHooked2

squek wrote: »

And how long of a supension did they get . Im captain of a club and im dealing with it tonite.

It depends, if it's the first time, then I'd say a warning and/or 1 month suspension would be sufficent, if it's the second time I'd say 3 months would be fair, then double it for every time after that.

Miley Byrne

Would it be a case of both players being sanctioned, as I presume the lad who didn't play knew a card was being entered for him?

squek

Ya the player that the card was for knew the other man was doin it.

Sandwlch

Eject the card filler from the club. Notify GUI or ILGU.
Interview the fillee. If the admit party to the ruse, then the same for them. If they deny knowing anything about it, then I guess you need to let them stay and play on. But watch them carefully.

SnowDrifts

How about you contact the GUI and consult with the committee and President of your club. Coming onto a forum looking for sanctioning advice is not really the way to go about it.

squek

I am the captain. The gui dont give advice on such matters.

PaddyOisin

I have found the GUI Leinster Branch people to be very helpful in similar cases in the past. Be careful in dealing with this. Many cases of dealing with simple looking issues have ended up in protracted legal cases.

DuckSlice

Not sure what you could do. One thing you need to do is ensure the two involved never enter a competition together as if they have done this then there is a good chance they won't mark there cards correctly!

squek

etxp wrote: »

Not sure what you could do. One thing you need to do is ensure the two involved never enter a competition together as if they have done this then there is a good chance they won't mark there cards correctly!

Its an auto suspension . The question is for how long.

Speak Now

squek wrote: »

Its an auto suspension . The question is for how long.

12 months would send a good message.

What was their thinking?
Was it to win a prize or to get a 0.1 back?
Just as bad either way.

squek

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

12 months would send a good message.

What was their thinking?
Was it to win a prize or to get a 0.1 back?
Just as bad either way.

They say the reason was to have a third qualifer in for presidents day.

stockdam

You are a private club? Do you have rules that deal with this?

What benefit would the people concerned have gained?

If you don't want to evict them then it's a matter of a deterrent.....that's down to you?

Rather than ask for random non-qualified advice, why don't you ask a lawyer/solicitor? This is where it could lead......

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2007CSOH136.html

Maybe this would be of some use:

http://www.boardroommagazine.com/ppmarch-april08.pdf

squek

stockdam wrote: »

You are a private club? Do you have rules that deal with this?

What benefit would the people concerned have gained?

If you don't want to evict them then it's a matter of a deterrent.....that's down to you?

Rather than ask for random non-qualified advice, why don't you ask a lawyer/solicitor? This is where it could lead......

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2007CSOH136.html

Its in the rules of golf that they be suspended

squek

squek wrote: »

Its in the rules of golf that they be suspended

Its in the rules of golf that there suspended. Im just wondering what would be a correct time they should get

Freemount09

Maybe add a poll ?? I'd vote for 3 - 4 months to be sufficient. That'd be the rest of this season really.

I'd be mortified to show my face in the club again. But then again, to even attempt this the guys in question must have necks like a jockies b****cks.

Is it well known around the club ? Should a notice be put up in the lockerroom / clubhouse / website ? Is this legal to name and shame these cheating feckers ? If it was my club I'd like this to be common knowledge throughout the membership to know who they are teeing up with and to let them know that the whole club would be keeping an eye on them when they come back from their 'holiday' !

EvanCornwallis

Wouldn't be to thrilled if the head of my club came onto a random forum for advice on such matters.

Hand over the reins, would be my advice.

squek

Freemount09 wrote: »

Maybe add a poll ?? I'd vote for 3 - 4 months to be sufficient. That'd be the rest of this season really.

I'd be mortified to show my face in the club again. But then again, to even attempt this the guys in question must have necks like a jockies b****cks.

Is it well known around the club ? Should a notice be put up in the lockerroom / clubhouse / website ? Is this legal to name and shame these cheating feckers ? If it was my club I'd like this to be common knowledge throughout the membership to know who they are teeing up with and to let them know that the whole club would be keeping an eye on them when they come back from their 'holiday' !

Thanks.

squek

EvanCornwallis wrote: »

Wouldn't be to thrilled if the head of my club came onto a random forum for advice on such matters.

Hand over the reins, would be my advice.

Is the forum not for chat and advice.

GreeBo

EvanCornwallis wrote: »

Wouldn't be to thrilled if the head of my club came onto a random forum for advice on such matters.

Hand over the reins, would be my advice.

Random forum?
Its probably the biggest website in Ireland and this is the Golf Forum on it....why do you think a bunch of members in a club would be any more knowledgeable than the golfers on this forum?

I'd hand over my keyboard if I was you.

squek

GreeBo wrote: »

Random forum?
Its probably the biggest website in Ireland and this is the Golf Forum on it....why do you think a bunch of members in a club would be any more knowledgeable than the golfers on this forum?

I'd hand over my keyboard if I was you.

Great help thank you

realgolfgeek

squek wrote: »

Is the forum not for chat and advice.

absolutely!

However, you're treading in a small world and it's quite likely that someone on here, or someone that knows someone, knows exactly what club and what people you're talking about.
Personally, I'd be very careful.
Also personally, I would be handing out a 6 month ban with a written statement stating that if this happens again, it's a permanent ban.

SnowDrifts

GreeBo wrote: »

Random forum?
Its probably the biggest website in Ireland and this is the Golf Forum on it....why do you think a bunch of members in a club would be any more knowledgeable than the golfers on this forum?

I'd hand over my keyboard if I was you.

Sometimes I wish this forum had a "dislike" button for such tripe.

You have a supposed Captain of a club coming on to a forum (whose demographic is unknown and unverified) wondering how long he should suspend a member for a rules breach. If you can't see what is wrong with that, maybe it is you who should be handing over the keyboard.

GreeBo

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Sometimes I wish this forum had a "dislike" button for such tripe.

You have a supposed Captain of a club coming on to a forum (whose demographic is unknown and unverified) wondering how long he should suspend a member for a rules breach. If you can't see what is wrong with that, maybe it is you who should be handing over the keyboard.

Easy there cowboy.
How is it tripe exactly?
The guy wants to know if it has happened before anywhere and what was the punishment. Whats the problem with that?
Presumably the demographic of the golf forum is similar to that of his club, i.e. people who play golf.

There has been no mention that the OP is going to blindly follow the advice here, but its likely to be far more un-biased than anything he would get in his club.

Id honestly like to hear what is is that you think is so wrong with it?

SnowDrifts

Look at his first point Greebo - "How long should a player be suspended..." Not a general query of what he should do but what the sanction should be.

GreeBo wrote: »

Easy there cowboy.

Presumably the demographic of the golf forum is similar to that of his club, i.e. people who play golf.

The problem word there is "Presumably". Internet forums are full of experts. We don't know for sure what level of experience or knowledge any poster has on here. Most clubs will have procedures for such matters and do you know what is not one of those procedures - going onto an internet forum to determine the length of one's suspension.

Like I said above - consult the GUI and your President and committee.

GreeBo

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Look at his first point Greebo - "How long should a player be suspended..." Not a general query of what he should do but what the sanction should be.




The problem word there is "Presumably". Internet forums are full of experts. We don't know for sure what level of experience or knowledge any poster has on here. Most clubs will have procedures for such matters and do you know what is not one of those procedures - going onto an internet forum to determine the length of one's suspension.

Like I said above - consult the GUI and your President and committee.

He is asking the question, but I dont see the leap to assuming he is going to blindly follow the thoughts of this forum, I see it as reaching out to knowledgeable people to get their views.

GUI has already said they wont give advice on this, its a club matter.

I think if the club had procedures for this the question wouldnt have arisen at all, the OP would have followed those procedures.

I'd be willing to bet that no one in the club has experienced this before and so they dont know what to do about it, thus they are reaching out to the community to see what, if anything, has happened before in similar circumstances.

Really dont see your problem with it tbh.

SnowDrifts

GreeBo wrote: »

Really dont see your problem with it tbh.

Well I can't make it any clearer. Agree to disagree and all that.

GreeBo

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Well I can't make it any clearer. Agree to disagree and all that.

Fair enough I guess, but I would appreciate if you could try to explain whats wrong with seeking advice outside of the club...via PM if you want.

realgolfgeek

I have to agree with snowdrifts here.

it looks a bit fishy if you ask me !

If I was the captain it would be a president/committee meeting to discuss what actions would be taken.

There is also a good chance that club/players involved here are named and shamed inadvertently

GreeBo

realgolfgeek wrote: »

it looks a bit fishy if you ask me !

If I was the captain it would be a president/committee meeting to discuss what actions would be taken.

There is also a good chance that club/players involved here are named and shamed inadvertently

Fishy?

I would agree it should be a committee decision, but what if the club is relatively new and no one on the committee has any idea what is a suitable punishment?
They contact the GUI and they say its an internal matter.

So you have 12 fellas around a table with no idea whats a suitable timeframe...personally I think its simply due diligence to see if this has happened anywhere else before and get an idea of punishments.


Only people who already know the incident will know who/where we are talking about.
Also there is no shame for the club and I would argue that the players involved deserve all the shame they get.

charlieIRL

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Sometimes I wish this forum had a "dislike" button for such tripe.

You have a supposed Captain of a club coming on to a forum (whose demographic is unknown and unverified) wondering how long he should suspend a member for a rules breach. If you can't see what is wrong with that, maybe it is you who should be handing over the keyboard.

I can see both sides to these points, 1 the captain should know better but 2, where else would you get to ask a question (anonymously) to one of the largest gatherings of golfers in the country for their honest opinion?

PARlance

Here's a point of concern, I don't know how valid it is but I certainly think they may be legal reason to be concerned about the scenario below.

It's probably written in the rules/constitution/whatever that the committees decisions are final and that matters of suspension are to be taken by a committee decision.
Said player(s) that are suspended are also boards members, or hear about this thread.
They see this thread and realise that it's their Captain looking for outside advice outside of the committee decision and that the Captains views have been shaped by others that are not on the committee.

Also:
I'm not sure, but, is the club allowed to make public why a player has been suspended?
If it is not, if say they can't say anything other than X has been suspended....
Or even if it's a case that only club members should know why a fellow member is being suspended.....
Then this thread could be crossing that line.

Again, none of this may be relevant, but I don't think any good can come from this.

PARlance

charlieIRL wrote: »

I can see both sides to these points, 1 the captain should know better but 2, where else would you get to ask a question (anonymously) to one of the largest gatherings of golfers in the country for their honest opinion?

Are we anonymous though???
We might have usernames but I don't think we are anonymous if Boards.ie got in a legal letter looking for our details etc.

SnowDrifts

charlieIRL wrote: »

I can see both sides to these points, 1 the captain should know better but 2, where else would you get to ask a question (anonymously) to one of the largest gatherings of golfers in the country for their honest opinion?

I have seen first hand where Captains of neighboring clubs were contacted in order to ascertain what sanction had been invoked for similar breaches of rules.

The problem with online anonymity is that it is very hard to maintain. Most members of the OP's club will hear through the grapevine about the incident. Now - what are the chances of one of them being a forum viewer/poster on here?
Small but still a fair chance.

GreeBo

SnowDrifts wrote: »

what are the chances of one of them being a forum viewer/poster on here?

Whats the problem with this though?
It doesn't change the facts about what these members did.

DuckSlice

I don't see the problem, the OP is asking a question on something he doesn't know how to deal with, what does it matter if the members see it, they should know about it. I would want to know if someone was cheating in my club. At the end of the day when we play competitions we are our own rules officials, when people start to cheat they are ruining the integrity of the game IMO

SnowDrifts

GreeBo wrote: »

Whats the problem with this though?
It doesn't change the facts about what these members did.

Because the alleged perpetrator will now be identified to some. The club may be mentioned and then boards.ie might be subject to legal proceedings. I understand you are here to delete such posts but you can't be here 24/7.

So now we have fellow members dictating sanctions on uncorroborated and, no doubt, exaggerated club gossip.

I realise you do not agree with me here but I just don't think it's a good idea to discuss club sanctions on a public forum and especially when there is a chance the person may be identified.

Johnny_Fontane

nothing wrong going online to see what the general consensus for such behaviour might be.

Then bring that information to the committee (who I am sure have their own opinions and maybe those of other clubs). Make a informed decision based on all knowledge to that point.

Simples. They know they will be banned, its just a matter of how much.

I would ban them until end September/mid october (which in effect is a ban until GUI counting comps kick off in March '14 again).

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

Whats the problem with this though?
It doesn't change the facts about what these members did.

I'd see a problem if he doesn't have their motives/reasons and acceptance of guilt in writing for a start.
He's come on here, potentially identified them giving the above details....what's to stop them changing their mind about their guilt.
That could be hot water right there.

I too am a bit shocked that a Captain would come on here looking for advice.

Surely as a Captain of a club he has a list of people, more qualified (other clubs committee members etc) that he could contact to get views upon this matter rather than asking us and potentially causing trouble for himself in future.

nomunnnofun

I think a 12 month ban for each is in order. They both admitted to doing the wrong thing so I can't really forsee any on-going legal issues. These usually only happen when it is one persons word against another and the committee side with one bringing reputations into dispute etc.... In your scenario, I think you are safe in whatever you enforce and in order to get the message out that cheating in any way or form is not tolerable, the punishment must be strict. May as well use this opportunity to scare the bejaysus out of other magic pencil carriers et al.

PARlance

nomunnnofun wrote: »

I think a 12 month ban for each is in order. They both admitted to doing the wrong thing so I can't really forsee any on-going legal issues. These usually only happen when it is one persons word against another and the committee side with one bringing reputations into dispute etc.... In your scenario, I think you are safe in whatever you enforce and in order to get the message out that cheating in any way or form is not tolerable, the punishment must be strict. May as well use this opportunity to scare the bejaysus out of other magic pencil carriers et al.

Did they though?
If not in writing then it could easily be denied.
If in writing, then what's stopping one of them changing his mind....before the committee meeting. Still time to send an email.
i.e there's been no decision yet, what if they decide that there's no point in them both going down and the lad that signed the card decided to take full responsibility.
There's still time for the other guy to send an email saying that he was forced to admit to it by the signer...

Put it this way, since we don't have an real legal anonymity here:
Would this be ok for the "Captain" to do this.
(substitute Eamonn, Enda and the club for the real names of the people/club concerned)

Captain starts a thread:
Right lads, how long should I ban Eamonn Gilmore and Enda Kenny for my golf club, The Coalition Club, of which I am the Captain.
They both cheated, both were aware that they cheated when Eamonn signed a card for Enda in a competition that he never played. Enda was aware Eamonn was doing this also. Both have told me they admit to it.
How long should I ban them for?

I don't think the thread would have lasted long.

But yet, legally Eamonn and Enda can make a case that this thread is doing that/assisting their identification at present.

Also, we're sure this is the Captain are we?

Or another scenario....There could indeed by 2 lads up for suspension the OP's club, he may
just be a member causing a nuisance... Maybe the two lads are up for suspension on a lesser incident.
Someone reading this thread, or fellow members, might not know about the lesser incident and for all we know this could be someone out to tarnish someones name.

nomunnnofun

ajcurry123 wrote: »

Did they though?
If not in writing then it could easily be denied.
If in writing, then what's stopping one of them changing his mind....before the committee meeting. Still time to send an email.
i.e there's been no decision yet, what if they decide that there's no point in them both going down and the lad that signed the card decided to take full responsibility.
There's still time for the other guy to send an email saying that he was forced to admit to it by the signer...

Put it this way, since we don't have an real legal anonymity here:
Would this be ok for the "Captain" to do this.
(substitute Eamonn, Enda and the club for the real names of the people/club concerned)

Captain starts a thread:
Right lads, how long should I ban Eamonn Gilmore and Enda Kenny for my golf club, The Coalition Club, of which I am the Captain.
They both cheated, both were aware that they cheated when Eamonn signed a card for Enda in a competition that he never played. Enda was aware Eamonn was doing this also. Both have told me they admit to it.
How long should I ban them for?

I don't think the thread would have lasted long.

But yet, legally Eamonn and Enda can make a case that this thread is doing that/assisting their identification at present.

Also, we're sure this is the Captain are we?

Or another scenario....There could indeed by 2 lads up for suspension the OP's club, he may
just be a member causing a nuisance... Maybe the two lads are up for suspension on a lesser incident.
Someone reading this thread, or fellow members, might not know about the lesser incident and for all we know this could be someone out to tarnish someones name.

I love the way your mind works AJ. So many twists in here, you could write the sequel to the Sixth Sense.:D
Only kidding and I agree with you that legally speaking, nothing is balck or white. It's all about how expensive your legal team are;) I am just speaking as someone who would like to see such blatant cheating as in the OP's scenario get everything coming to them...

DeanAustin

My two cents

The two boys should get a 12 month ban or a ban until the end of the year. This sort of thing shouldn't be tolerated.

That said, I don't think a club captain should be coming on here asking this sort of question. It's a public forum that anyone can read. If either of the two people concerned read this board then they will easily identify themselves.

For this sort of situation, you need to be extremely careful.

PARlance

nomunnnofun wrote: »

I love the way your mind works AJ. So many twists in here, you could write the sequel to the Sixth Sense.:D
Only kidding and I agree with you that legally speaking, nothing is balck or white. It's all about how expensive your legal team are;) I am just speaking as someone who would like to see such blatant cheating as in the OP's scenario get everything coming to them...

I've been forced to watch too much of "The Good Wife" by The BadWife
Don't mind me, I'm just living out my dream of being a hot shot lawyer & being married to Peter Florick on here :D:D:D

Less of the good wife and more range time and I might be better served (pun intended...just can't let it go)

GreeBo

ajcurry123 wrote: »

I'd see a problem if he doesn't have their motives/reasons and acceptance of guilt in writing for a start.
He's come on here, potentially identified them giving the above details....what's to stop them changing their mind about their guilt.
That could be hot water right there.

I too am a bit shocked that a Captain would come on here looking for advice.

Surely as a Captain of a club he has a list of people, more qualified (other clubs committee members etc) that he could contact to get views upon this matter rather than asking us and potentially causing trouble for himself in future.

The OP didnt say "I think someone has cheated, what should I do?"
If that was anywhere in the thread I would have locked/deleted it hours ago.

At this point guilt has been established/admitted, its the severity/length of the punishment thats in question and that the OP is seeking input on.

In a previous post I mentioned that perhaps its a new club where the members/committee are not that experienced in club matters, its very possible that the members on here are far more qualified to give input than a new committee in a new club. We have plenty of committee members, captains, etc on here who's advice I would value.

Russman

As long as the lads aren't identified then personally I don't see a huge issue. Internet forums are a relatively new "resource" and this is probably an evolution in their use.
What's the difference between asking online and ringing another club's captain for an opinion ? Neither is an expert and one or both could fill you with $h1t. There are no qualifications needed for being on committee in a club, just having an officer position or being on a committee doesn't confer any expertise or knowledge on that person. Some might even say only the true idiots go on committee !(maybe that's just in my club though !!:D)

Golf in Ireland is a verrrry small world and there's a fair chance someone on here knows the parties involved in this. As long as they're not named and shamed publicly then whats the big deal ? Word of these things gets out one way or another, we've all heard stuff playing with people in matches, scratch cups, opens etc etc.

I've no idea what the suspension should be in this case. I do know the club needs to be careful though. A few years ago we had a case where guys were caught in a team event by witnesses who were sent out specifically to watch them - when challenged after the round on the scores written down versus what was witnessed, the response was along the lines of "ohhh gosh yeah, you're right, I had a 5 there not a 4, my mistake". Club wasn't able to accuse them of the "C" word once that had been said. Meetings were had and 6 month suspensions handed out, but its not always as clear cut as it seems.

Wasn't there a case similar to this maybe 10 years or more ago though ? Guy didn't play in an event but a card was handed in to get 0.1 back to qualify for a junior scratch or interclub or something. He left the club (don't know if he was asked to leave or not) and joined one a few miles away. Don't know what happened to the person who handed in the card, or even if there was another party involved. Bloody good player too he was.

Nemesis

Before any decision is made a letter or email from both guys explaining what happened should be forwarded to the Hon Sec of your committee.

Suspension from club competitions for remainder of the year would seem about right to me.

Thread carefully though and don't make the situation any worse.