LPG conversion

Briskit

The following thread is a bit of a TL:DR, but if you don’t have the time, here’s the synopsis.

have old car, v6, petrol – mpg extremely ravenous …. fuel costing be probably cheaper to run one of those DrQuirky race car simulator …. if she had a slot next ignition you’d be pumpin tokens in!!!

Went to LPGain in Tallaght. Polish boys… sound… professional… engineering operation – bonified

talked to them. Read up boards, and multiple other forums… in engrish and other languages translationed

computed the figures. Prices here on conversions considering experience of operators, very competitive and almost unsustainable in the long term. said… ‘fcuk it', sure a bag a sand will be saved on juice by Crimmus.


experience to date… drive is smooth and silky in the urban & motorway environments. Not many miles clocked. Weather has been fair. Full review not possible until she’s been driven for a season and reasonable mileage covered under all conditions.

Happy Days.





…. so that’s the short of it, but for anyone interested or time to read on

well.. here’s the long…




Firstly, I am not an avid poster on this forum, but do visit from time to time.

I used some of the search functionality here on boards while researching the pros and cons of converting my car to lpg. I therefore, figured I could thus become a contributor as I went thru’ with it last week with LPGain in Tallaghfornia last week.

I’ll have to take you back a bit…
to give you the jist!

I run an old petrol car, decent displacement and enough idiosyncrasies from a genre of motoring that I have always driven, as I find them, simple, effective reliable and durable in our climate and relatively cost effective for the day to day with enough performance and handling to make the daily runs pleasant and enjoyable.

Consumables for services are the main costs, as not much goes wrong with them. Whatever was going on in Japan in the early nineties was good stuff as I’ve owned mazda’s from ’90, ’92 & ’93 for the majority of my driving experience since the late nineties.

Anyhoos, I run a naturally aspirated, DOHC, 2.5L, v – configuration 6 cylinder block that has low low mileage. A genuine time warp car, as it feels and drives solid, straight and rigit like only a new car feels. Suspension, steering and acceleration are all on par with modern cars. Modern cars which have evolved from these game-changing models of their ‘90’s contemporaries! Although, the solid and plentiful 163bhp could be met by contemporary cars with far smaller displacement and smarter DMG gearboxes

But, there’s something nice about how my car feels to me, and it’s related to my first two cars by DNA and interchangeable components. Sure I could run something cheaper, but the smile per mile factor that I have seen alluded to on motoring forums is something. Plus, when you own an older car outright, then you’re annual motor costs aren’t that bad, as high tax and low mpg are balanced out by Indy mechanic rates and no real devaluation.

Modern cars have evolved to have much thicker and sound muffling insulation (this is also weight!), bigger plastic bumpers (handy to have the consumables larger when these are the likely items that will be needed to ‘tidy-up’ after fender-bender (a yankism), a tap or a tip!, … the wife etc., etc.

Pros & Cons of owning an early nineties mazda

Pros:
Engines are ridiculously robust when they’ve been owned by someone who even gave half dam about it.
The mechanics are very fixable and rarely cause trouble if you bought a car with a reliable history.
Electronics such as S/R, E/W, E/M, cruise control etc., don’t have many glicks at all, and it’s amazing that these cars were so well kitted out at the time of their production. Blow the odd fuse when I try to charge of the cig-lighter, but lighter still works and it’s just something I avoid until I get Jerry (my elecs fella – dude’s like Doc from back to the future in his lab… Jerry fixes!!)

Cons:
Stock lighting pretty poor beam for secondary roads at night(a refinement I would like to see done on my own, hopefully as a project, perhaps even this summer!) Fine for city & motorway.

OEM parts – such as gerbox filter, o-rings, gaskets, coil packs, nuts & bolts be mad expensive, but luckily not something that comes up too often, plus e-bay and such offer choice & competition.

- oil filters and air filters (pan) can be had for small money in my motor factors in Crumlin
Jimmy and Jason are like mates at this stage and are like my motor psychiatrists when I visit occasionally with motor woes, adventures or needs… always a bitta craic, and jokes until the next time… good guys to know, and if I ever pick up the wrong stuff, I just pop back and it’s a straight swap of the shelf… never issues about cost and that… always more about the bitta banter, and I enjoy that… always get a few dipatanes to keep her running clean & always in the hope of achieving a cleaner burn and a higher set of miles for this particular tank... just a squirt in the odd tank...

I run her from tank to tank… clear the clock and just go until the reserve light comes on… and usually top up pretty soon, even though there’s ten litres left at this stage.

-I’ve never damaged or had to replace a fuel-pump in my life!... but hoppin’ around the internet you be hearing a lot of fella’s replacing them all the time, & has me thinking that that they must drain the juice completely and have the pump sucking half air some of the time!! Understandable in these times but I try to avoid… would always be conscious that there could be a bit of rust in the old tank too, so best not to siphon off the slurry at the end for me.

Like the carina e of the same generation, many of these cars went forever and were on the roads for ages. There used to be nothing but parts in the breakers yards for them, but all these models ran a long time after they had stop producing these editions, and manufacturers had moved onwards. But there’s a natural attrition like that on components at a certain age of car, of a specific popular model, as the scrappers have sold on many of their parts.

But there will always be more. Anyways, the past few holidays I had I ventured over eastern Europe, where they have a large number of car marks from back in the days… be they the eighties, nineties or naughties… they have ‘em, and sometimes they’re minty fresh… and they keep some well and others pimp them.

Anyways… here we go now…
bit of the long route round to get here… a meandering backroads mountain drive rather than the speedway! Some of the boys over there have been doing gas conversions for a few decades now, just as it did start of hot here in Ireland in the early to mid eighties… but over there it continued, and they have a lot of expertise and experience with the products and with their fitting.

Another plus for me, was the familiarity with old mazdas and the data and information out there to give a person feedback… once you convert eastern European blogs… they be smart with the spanner out there, some of them…. but there’s a decent yank/Canadian/aussie blog for my car as it has a particular following in the aforementioned, and people in forums can be so nice and informative as well as accommodating, it’s unbelievable sometimes… gotta love the net!!

All the forums also provide a huge data repertoire of the threats that have been cached… the searchability of all this data, and the ability to price and research reliability before a purchase is fantastic.

Anyways… I knocked into Chris and the boys in Tallaght off Old Bawn a few weeks ago, and had a talk to Thomas, the mechanic who was tinkering with a four cylinder small fiat that they had converted for themselves. He was tweaking it via laptop and also measuring pressures and levels throughout the system. Anyways, I talked to the boys, got a look at what their doing. Got talked thru’ the different options.. Injectors , ECU, reducer and the tanks sizes.

Was cool. Discussed the mechanics of working on the engine after this hybrid system was added on top of the existing mechanics. Interesting, so decided it was best to first do a few things such as the timing belt, transmission service. Had given it a very decent service in April, but had left the more expensive areas as I was considering the costs long term.
Having really convinced myself more of the benefits of LPG from the time with the boys in Tallaght, I went over the Sergio my main mechanic, who isn’t far from here. He had a slot open during the week, so I got belt ordered and picked up some Dextron3.

For the day of the conversion, I showed up at 8.30am on the dot, and the boys were pulling up the shutters so I parked it straight on the ramp area. Had a chat with Chris about business and how many conversions he’s been doing. Very sound guy and he’s running a tight certified engineering unit there. The guys are acute with their work and really are focused and are good at what they’re doing. They are also proud in their work and increase their interest in your car when they see that you love your car and want the best for it.

… ‘s tuff…. slike standing outside the ECU looking in at a loved one all connected up to drips and readers anywas, I parted at about 10.15 having chatted about options, longevity of system, possibility of failure, system upkeep etc., etc. Normal driver stuff… the ideas that you’d think about on other days etc… that’s why poppin into them a few times up to the conversion, where they look at the engine, test fit a tank in the wheel well, to measure the best size for the car… is good, as I spent a good two weeks prepping from decision to fit-out by having to do the T-belt and other bits in the meantime.

Anyway… Came back to the boys at 5.15pm Thursday, so they were still at it, and told me laughing that that they said they’d call me… I cycled out from town, so no worries… saw the boys were at the mapping and tuning phase, so didn’t want to distract, so went off over to Sergio who had been removing a loose timing chain on an Opel Van earlier. He’s a ledge… can pop in while he’s compressor gunning an engine together or apart… like a chef chopping onions or plating up. He loves car & enjoys his work… real fella goes in with him, with a real problem…. if you’re a smart enough driver to know your car and feel the bits and bops and bangs and jolts that can sometimes arise, and explain it to a good mechanic like Sergio…. then it gets sorted, straight up, and way before one rattle leads to another and so on. So it’s nice to watch him and Gino at work and the bit of banter is always lively too…

Great to hang with him, and I laugh, as he should be a WRC mechanic… one of those fellas between stages that can do a gearbox change and what not on a car mounted on a ditch!!! happy days… zooooop… zoooooop zzzzzzzzzzp zzzp zooop zoooop…
Like Clint, but with an air gun spanner!!

went back up to LPGain at 6.30ish, and the lads were just reversing out. They were gonna drive it now to monitor the map they had arranged on the ECU… so I got in the back (bit tight – but a bitta skooching made it happen…. went off and drove it city, suburban and motorway. Perfect… as they allow the ecu to learn itself under all the forms of driving…

Back to the shop.
I got my certificate of them for the insurance company,
I got the warrantee for the tank, and for the injectors 2/3 years depending on the system purchased
a booklet about the system

I got the Stag 300 ECU and reducer with the HANA injectors
You get a valve for connecting the hose at the pump, you can pay a bit extra to have it fitted inside the fuel cap.

Anyways… she’s riding sooth right now. The autobox service from Sergio on Tuesday had really upgraded the smoothness of the car’s drive, but I noticed driving in the city yesterday that she’s idles and purrs ever so relaxed now in traffic… she always did, but she’s ridiculously smooth right now and long may it last!

I didn’t include any lubrication system as I’ve seen discussed in different forums, but I intent to write up the odd mention here as time and miles go on, to see how she’s performing.

Regarding power & performance… I’ve yet to drive her in the manner or the direction in which I’ll get to ascertain this, but plan soon on an Italian choone-up on some lanes!

All my garage men this week were from eastern Europe and they were sound. I think us as the customers have to help break the ice a bit, and there’s no way to see how fellas work then if you have a moment to hang out or check in on them when they’re busy doing their thing.

Feel free to bring up or ask questions that I might be able to answer for those considering the switch, and cheers to people the likes of Matt Simmis, Unkel, Nissan Doc, Limerick man and many many others on this forum that share a lot of good knowledge from their motoring experiences and they be funny as well.

Chris will already have posted up some shots in his gallery on their website

gone for a drive...

biko

Great write up, do keep it updated when you have a few more miles under the tyres.

Briskit

biko wrote: »

Great write up, do keep it updated when you have a few more miles under the tyres.

Thanks biko,

U'd need welliesto have gotten thru' it!! ... trying to distill, but still like the meandering route most!



Short:

Car doing good on initial tank of lpg.
multiple roads, gradients, surfaces driven.
short hop, longer haul but no grand tours as such!
very smooth burn
no discernable loss of anything from the feel of the car
can hear the cas contracting expanding sometimes in the tank... totally natural as you would have any stored gas under pressure.
transfer between systems is flawless. Can have automatic switch to gas when correct engine temperature is reached in a few minutes, or you can manually assume control & overide.
Half tank of both fuels left. Gives the fwd car good bance with the back lowered when it's full as the engine is heavy and the new balance complements if not smoothens the ride.
all's good.



The Long of it:


have a latest update on the last speel,

last night’s edition was written in a swoop.

always noticed the car ran smooth every summer on nice warm/hot days when she’d be all nicely heated up after a drive, and the fuel itself expanded from the temperatures… the gaseous mixture in the tank seems to then pressurise the liquid petrol at the bottom and also help feed it smoothly and continuously according to throttle response.

so today I did a fast motorway commute and a big country drive through hills, lanes, glens and mountains with swervy curves and dips galore… roof open and windows down… some good tunes on, but lowered the chooones every now and again, to just take in the mountain scape and fresh air, as well as admiring the quiet from the motor… there’s many’s a cyclist I came upon who wouldn’t have heard me approach from behind bar the crunch of the gravel as I passed them all on the other side having seen them way back.

‘twas a cruise, just workin & featherin the throttle most of’it and holding braking for the necessary divets and curves in the road, but for the most part, letting her cruise according to surface quality at a specific speed… to run her constant on different levels 30, 50 etc., etc., on the ol' mph.

The car always idled nicely, but it’s even smoother at present. When the attached the valves for the new injector on the cam covers, they really did do a fine pressure seal, as the engine feels tighter and more in time since the switch. I had a twenty year old original t-belt on her ‘til last week, so some of the servicing on that and the autobox can be attributed to the finer running of the vehicle.

This particular engine, is of the ‘non-interference’ variety, and you can snap a belt, and it’s only a matter of putting a belt back on… that had never happened, but she’s still under sixty thou old school in mileage. She’s tighter now as the timing is just right as there was most probably some stretching over two decades, but he wear was incredibly light on the removed belt.

so she’s running nice… worked all the gears, on gradients… up and down… holding her at different levels… really nice. No strains discernible in any components, with temperature, pressures are remaining within a tight range, and very constant.

did a shopping trip earlier on it, and all’s good… she’s returning something similar to the fuel figures… but they’ve always been a bit of a horrorshow, so nice to be lowering the coasts to levels which will allow the maintenance and upkeep of something worthwhile on the roads.
anything that can increase the popularity of people justifying the costs of keeping nice big ol’ petrols on the road is good… my yearly net spend with be comparably lowered freeing up funds for fundamental improvements & better tyres budget...

it’s always nice to see and eclectic mix of wheels on the road and smaller shops with genuine people just interacting and doing business with each other.

I also enjoy the magnificent motors that some people drive... some amount of snazzy stuff cruising on our bóthars in that nothing would surprise you as it appears on the crest of an oncoming hill.


very nice.


p.s. I know hard facts and figures have yet to be included, but the experience is being enjoyed and appreciated right now on a leve lof feel. Getting a feel for the change & also keeping and eye and testing in the different driving conditions be they surface or weather conditions and all the other parameters to boot...
hard to spreadsheet all the mo'fo's sometimes!, and sometimes it's nice to be forced to be descriptive instead of using the photo option.

kadman

Whats the engine spec of the car you are driving??

Briskit

kadman wrote: »

Whats the engine spec of the car you are driving??

Hello Kadman,

Here's the engine spec:

2.5L (2497cc), 164 hp (122 kW; 166 PS)

The engine configuration is a 60° DOHC V6

Attached to an automatic 4speed transmission with overdrive

It’s naturally aspirated and with stock setup.






I’ve driven it a bit now since the conversion with four tanks of LPG used so far and I intend to pop another bit of feedback on this thread soon.

kadman

Sounds good so far.:)

I,m thinking of getting my own VW T25 1.9 petrol camper converted.

Sobanek

Mazda MX-6?

Briskit

I was getting about 200-225miles per tank on petrol for the past few years. That would be 45-50 litres per tank, as I tend to fill up soon after the reserve light comes on and generally do not deplete the 55L tank to empty!

So far on the LPG system, the mileage obtained per tank has been:

Fill 1 – 37.5 Litres – 157 miles*

Fill 2 – 41.7 Litres – 201 miles

Fill 3 – 47.0 Litres – 186 miles*

Fill 4 – 46.4 Litres – 227 miles



Above is the list of the first four fills and the mileage done on each tank. The first two fills are smaller in volume as I switched off the gas system in error when the red light in the guage came on. This actually indicates that you’re running on the reserve, so as you can see I used more of the tank for fills three and four.

I got a 62 litre tank installed and 47L has been the maximum fill so far. I might be able to get 50 litres in now when the weather is not so hot!?

I’ve driven the car a good bit now and tried her out under most driving conditions that I’ll encounter in my day to day.

She’s been very smooth to date and as I mentioned in my second post, the transition from petrol to gas is flawless. You wouldn’t notice a thing, even when the bonnet is open and you’re looking at the engine when it switches over.

I have noticed when driving down laneways in the city with the windows down recently, that you can maybe discern a slight difference in the sound of the exhaust when it’s burning gas!? I’m pretty sure I do, but may just be imagining it. Either way, the car sounds super smooth and quiet on both systems, which is something that I like and one of the reasons I would prefer a LPG conversion over a switch to diesel. My annual mileage and short commute distances wouldn’t merit a modern diesel with DPF.

The two Fills above listed with an asterisk were mainly suburban and city driving, consisting of mainly short runs of 5 – 12 miles, so you have to take into account that you do run on petrol for a little while longer on each of these tanks.

The car always starts on petrol, but switches then automatically to gas when the engine has warmed up. Personally, I prefer to make sure the engine is nice and warm before switching and therefore manually override the system when the temperature guage has reached its familiar running temperature. I’d say I’m being overly cautious but I just want to be sure.

When you drive say to the shops, and then hope back in the car having parked up for 10-20 mins, the car generally switches straight to gas after starting on petrol. You know this by an indicator light on the fuel guage. When it’s flashing, you’re running on petrol, and when its constantly lit, then you’re on LPG.

Anyways, cost wise, it’s amazing. I’ve saved about €200 already on five fills. I’d usually be averaging €70-80 a tank on the petrol, and it’s very pleasant to be handing over money in the region of the mid thirties for a fill with LPG with the lads in Tallaght. They’ve given me a 6% discount on pump prices as I converted with them, so they’re 79-80cent pump prices have been more like €0.75 for me.

All in all I’m delighted with the conversion. Need to figure out what I’m going to do with the big alloy hogging an already small boot, but the savings make it all worthwhile. Fills 2 & 4 included good hard motorway drives for a good 130 miles of the mileage quoted. I ran the car at a good steady motorway speed in the hot weather just to see that the hoses and the pressures were able to cope with the upper end of extreme Irish weather.

It will be interesting now to see how it works in the cold, although the boys at LPGain have a lot of experience with the cold Polish winters and say it should not prove to be any different. Time will tell, and I’m hoping the cold weather will allow me to fit more gas in the tank.

Now, there are some driving differences to report. At low speeds around the city and that, and also when driving leisurely up hard inclines, she doesn’t have the same low end torque of petrol. I guess the gas has a lower calorific value, so she doesn’t pull as hard under gentle pedal pressure at low speeds, but as I’ve gained more confidence in the system I’ve learned to adapt my driving style to apply more throttle to get her moving more swiftly when necessary.

To explain it more clearly, I think I had developed a light foot due to the cost of running it on petrol. The car is extremely thirsty and the outdated 4speed autobox means that you as the driver cannot really control the drive and fuel consumption outside of throttle pressure, and cruising style. But with the gas fills being that bit cheaper, then you can give it more juice so to speak to regain any loss in power and acceleration off the blocks.

The same symptoms are recognisable when driving up a steep gradient. Some of my mates driveways in the countryside are on huge hills and you can feel that the pull isn’t as strong without first applying a little more throttle.

As far as accelerating from say 50mph upwards, then I haven’t noticed any real loss of form here in the cars driving style. She handles very nice at motorway speeds and would seem to cruise along all day on the new system without a hitch.

Chris as I was calling him (actually Krystoff I think) has been excellent with aftersales service. He inspected the system for leaks with a special device one morning when I was filling up, making sure all joints and connections were tight. I came across some green dust on the piping this week, and this baffled him more than me, as it’s unheard off, when he quickly discovered it was the insulation lining under the bonnet rubbing against some of the system components. He quickly remedied the situation by lowering the two sections which were in contact with the bonnet lining when closed. My engine block doesn’t have the modern plastic covers that lies on top, which would usually cover the LPG system once fitted.

As far as fuel economy is concerned, I’m almost realising the same mpg as for petrol for my particular car, and if it’s lower, I would guesstimate it to be only by 10-15% or so.

There’s a few things that I need to fine tune on the car before I can give any more definite feedback. I need to flush out the transmission system and get a new filter for it. I did a gearbox oil change a few weeks ago, but Sergio my mechanic told me that it had never been done previously, so I bought more fluid to flush it out properly. (What’s really annoying is that I bought a very expensive transmission filter from mazda and 6L of transmission Fluid 20k miles ago, but the guys I left it in with seem to never have done the job they charged me for … annoys me more that I’ve driven all this time on the original transmission fluid… anyway, only gets the blood up to dwell on this!)

I will also be back to the lads in Tallaght to plug in the ECU for the LPG system to the computer to see if we could map it differently now that I have had more of a taste of how it operates on my usual driving runs as I think we can map it to behave better at urban speeds. I believe some of the loss of torque I’ve mentioned above could be down to the mapping and my autobox, and that those converting on manual boxes will not feel the effect as much as they can easily counter them with manual gearing.

I met a rep from Flo Gas at the filling station in Tallaght the other day and we had a good chat about motoring in general, but it was an informative discussion as FloGas as a company would be very much like-minded to motorists here on this forum regarding the benefits of the system. I will add a bit about that in a future post, but as it is I need to wrap this post up for now.

Again, I know the stats I’ve been giving here are a mix of metric volumes with imperial distances, but I’ve always driven cars with the clocks still in miles and haven’t bothered to convert any of my figures. I would regard my feedback on the system as a more qualitative one, and others might be more attuned to giving more quantitative representations on mpg and relating figures.

Overall, with fill ups giving me change out of a fifty and the engine ticking over normally, so far I’m a very happy convert in my hybrid car!!

Briskit

Sobanek wrote: »

Mazda MX-6?

It is, although some MX-3's and the Mazda Xedos run on the same engines. The Ford probe also has the same engine also.

who_ru

i got my 09 mazda 6 converted last may. fine so far. got the 82ltr tank.

LPG filters need to be changed every 10,000km. mine are due soon. Chris in Tallaght is a gent as are the rest of the lads there, honest as the day is long.

I didn't get flashlube installed either, and when i go on a long motor way run i'll drive 100km or more on petrol just to get the valves lubricated a bit.

my only long term concern is that when at some point in the future, 3 years or so from now and the injectors need changing, if the LPG conversion business fails it may be hard to find someone to do the job right.

Briskit

who_ru wrote: »

i got my 09 mazda 6 converted last may. fine so far. got the 82ltr tank.

LPG filters need to be changed every 10,000km. mine are due soon. Chris in Tallaght is a gent as are the rest of the lads there, honest as the day is long.

I didn't get flashlube installed either, and when i go on a long motor way run i'll drive 100km or more on petrol just to get the valves lubricated a bit.

Would have to agree with you 100% about Chris and his team in Tallaght. Very sound, and very good at their jobs. I like your method there of driving it for a 100km on petrol on long drives for valve lubrication. I might incorporate that method myself. Lovely car by the way and nice to hear you've had so many trouble free kilometres of driving already.

who_ru wrote: »

my only long term concern is that when at some point in the future, 3 years or so from now and the injectors need changing, if the LPG conversion business fails it may be hard to find someone to do the job right.

I see you got the STAG system with HANA injectors as well. I was under the impressioin that the injectors were guaranteed for 150k kilometres!?

The FloGas representative that I was talking to was saying that it's a catch 22 situation with the system. More garages won't fit a pump in their forecourt until more cars are converted, and this is the same situation for many drivers not converting.

Hopefully more discussion about the LPG system will lead to more people converting and that eventually we will end up with a nationwide filling infrastructure!

kadman

I,ll hopefully be calling in to LPG in Tallaght this week to see about converting my VW T25:)

Briskit

kadman wrote: »

I,ll hopefully be calling in to LPG in Tallaght this week to see about converting my VW T25:)

Was out there for a fill today and the lads had V8 Jeep up on the ramp being converted... that driver's gonna see some cost savings!

You'll have a lot of room in the camper to put a very decent sized tank in... All the best with that if you follow thru' with it kadman.

Sam Kade

who_ru wrote: »

i got my 09 mazda 6 converted last may. fine so far. got the 82ltr tank.

LPG filters need to be changed every 10,000km. mine are due soon. Chris in Tallaght is a gent as are the rest of the lads there, honest as the day is long.

I didn't get flashlube installed either, and when i go on a long motor way run i'll drive 100km or more on petrol just to get the valves lubricated a bit.

my only long term concern is that when at some point in the future, 3 years or so from now and the injectors need changing, if the LPG conversion business fails it may be hard to find someone to do the job right.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose? What was your reason for not getting flashlube installed?

mullingar

I have a 3.0 Lexus GS300 with an lpg kit installed around 2000 miles now and it's great. I have an 80l tank of which 65l is usable which gets me around 270-300 miles per complete fill.. This is roughly 20mpg. On petrol it would do 24-25mpg.. As my local petrol station sells lpg for 80.9c/litre, the car now has the financial fuel costs of a 40mpg car

I also installed a automatic flash lube system that adds just 1c of the stuff per litre of LPG.

I'm well chuffed with the system

magic123

Guys,maybe somebody who has converted to lpg could share experience dealing with insurance companies when lpg system installed.i heard a lot of different stories.so whats your experience?

kadman

magic123 wrote: »

Guys,maybe somebody who has converted to lpg could share experience dealing with insurance companies when lpg system installed.i heard a lot of different stories.so whats your experience?

Fair point:)

But is it stories , rumour , or fact you have heard. Maybe enlighten us a bit.

kadman

Briskit

Regarding Insurance and LPG conversion: Absolutely no issue at all.

I had called up my Insurance in advance of the conversion to check with them, and they just told me that if I submitted an Engineer's Certificate for the conversion that there would be no change in my premiums and no issue with them.

That was one of the reason's I chose LPGain to do my conversion, as they give you a full A4 Engineers's report stating all the components used as well as the safety standards etc., associated with each one of them.

It's a laminated sheet, so my insurance company told me to just send on a photocopy of the original.

All done easily & legally for the price of a stamp.

marketty

Has anyone here used Navan autogas for their conversion? Convenient for me and seem pretty reasonable, might call into them.
Also any experience of converting a 10 yr old 1.2, is it worth doing? Doing about 5-600km a week.

blancha

marketty wrote: »

Has anyone here used Navan autogas for their conversion? Convenient for me and seem pretty reasonable, might call into them.
Also any experience of converting a 10 yr old 1.2, is it worth doing? Doing about 5-600km a week.

That's mechanics starting their adventure with gas. Maybe they know what they do... see the gallery on their website-some strange, but they have good prices on start.

kadman

mullingar wrote: »

I have a 3.0 Lexus GS300 with an lpg kit installed around 2000 miles now and it's great. I have an 80l tank of which 65l is usable which gets me around 270-300 miles per complete fill.. This is roughly 20mpg. On petrol it would do 24-25mpg.. As my local petrol station sells lpg for 80.9c/litre, the car now has the financial fuel costs of a 40mpg car

I also installed a automatic flash lube system that adds just 1c of the stuff per litre of LPG.

I'm well chuffed with the system

Sounds good, did you do your own install, or was it done by a conversion company.

kadman

mullingar

kadman wrote: »

Sounds good, did you do your own install, or was it done by a conversion company.

kadman

Yes I did it myself, a great learning curve.

And yes, I got it certified safe and it also passed the nct last week first time

Guy:Incognito

mullingar wrote: »

Yes I did it myself, a great learning curve.

And yes, I got it certified safe and it also passed the nct last week first time

Do the nct do anything different tgan if it was still petrol only?

mullingar

Yes, I watched them. they checked that the tank and components were secure and also the emissions test is different.

The emissions test is tighter and the details are in the NCT manual. I can only assume it's tighter as the stoichiometric ratio is different and maybe also as LPG is a pure fuel with no contamination

Mine passed with squeaky clean results.

Lpg seems to be a very clean fuel as the oil is still a lovely honey colour.

Edit: Page 13, 79 and 80 of the NCT manual. Linky

kadman

mullingar wrote: »

Yes I did it myself, a great learning curve.

And yes, I got it certified safe and it also passed the nct last week first time

Did you have much trouble getting it certified, due to it being your own install.

What are the regs governing a diy install.

Nice one by the way:)

mullingar

kadman wrote: »

Did you have much trouble getting it certified, due to it being your own install.

What are the regs governing a diy install.

Nice one by the way:)

No, I had no problems getting it certified.

Re: regs? AFAIK there are no direct regs on lpg in cars as it does not fit under domestic or industrial regs. It would fall under more generic gas safety guidelines and hence to be signed off under that for the insurance companies .

kadman

mullingar wrote: »

No, I had no problems getting it certified.

Re: regs? AFAIK there are no direct regs on lpg in cars as it does not fit under domestic or industrial regs. It would fall under more generic gas safety guidelines and hence to be signed off under that for the insurance companies .

I thought there would be specific regs involved, but as long as the system is inspected by an engineer, job sorted. So would I be correct in saying a gas fitting engineer is the guy to see, or is it an automotive engineer.

thanks

kadman

Called into Tallaght LPG to check out the deal with converting the T25.

Unfortunately they have not converted a T25 in Ireland yet, but apparently one technician has done them before
in Poland, and says it will be ok, but they will have to use first generation kit for it. I was kinda hoping I could chat to someone that had a boxer engine done, but that wont happen here.

VVtech at the Gandon INN are more involved with late 3rd and 4th generation systems, and couldn,t guarantee that a system would stay calibrated on a carburretored engine , without the control and signal from a lamba sensor. They suggested another agent of theirs in Tipperary, who has more experience of dealing with first generation systems on a carburretored engine, might be willing to do it. I rang him, and although he has done many T25,s in Poland, none here yet. I assured him that once calibrated for LPG, I could keep a close check on it myself.

I,m considering fitting a wideband lambda sensor , and an AFR meter to check the calibration on an ongoing basis. Very tempted at this stage to fit my own unit. Quotes so far range from 800-1000

So I,ll think on it for a bit more.................not too long though, as the T25 is in good fettle, and giving the manufacturers mpg.....................26 mpg town driving and 28 motorway.......Too much

mullingar

kadman wrote: »

I,m considering fitting a wideband lambda sensor , and an AFR meter to check the calibration on an ongoing basis.

Can you use a cheap narrow band sensor with any lpg ecu's?

aidanki

@ mullingar, the install itself isn't overly difficult I imagine but how did u manage the ECU bit ?

when you bought the stuff did u get a software package to allow you do the programming

kadman

mullingar wrote: »

Can you use a cheap narrow band sensor with any lpg ecu's?

Not too sure about that. But any AFR guage that I have been researching , uses the wideband sensor for the signal to the guage. And also has the ability to give measurements of different levels of gases present. As far as my limited knowledge goes,

This is what I,m looking at,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/INNOVATE-MTX-L-AFR-Wideband-Air-Fuel-Ratio-Gauge-3844-/300506017816?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item45f78df018

mullingar

aidanki wrote: »

@ mullingar, the install itself isn't overly difficult I imagine but how did u manage the ECU bit ?

when you bought the stuff did u get a software package to allow you do the programming

That was one of the easiest jobs. I had to connect the LPG ecu to 2x oxygen sensors, throttle position sensor, maf, power (perm & switched) and cut/solder all the petrol injector wires all in that plastic box that holds the engine ecu. I had a copy of the cars full wiring diagram which helped a lot.

The software was fully automatic, made it sooooo simple, downloadable from the STAG website.

This is the installation manual:
linky

kadman

mullingar wrote: »

That was one of the easiest jobs. I had to connect the LPG ecu to 2x oxygen sensors, throttle position sensor, maf, power (perm & switched) and cut/solder all the petrol injector wires all in that plastic box that holds the engine ecu. I had a copy of the cars full wiring diagram which helped a lot.

The software was fully automatic, made it sooooo simple, downloadable from the STAG website.

This is the installation manual:
linky

Sounds like yours is a 3rd or 4th generation kit , with all the bells and whistles for a closed loop system, and a car with injectors and an ecu. Unfortunately my own T25 needs a first generation system, to fit a carb, and no ecu present to connect to, so I,ve been told. Trickier apparently to get a good constant calibrated fuel delivery, thats why I,m looking at fitting the AFR guage

Sobanek

Is anyone aware if the BMW N20 (Twin-Scroll Turbo, Direct Injection) or the VAG TFSI engine (DI as well) can be converted to LPG?
I heard they're a bit more expensive to do, but still, you wouldn't pay a premium on diesel.

Briskit

Just wanted to post an update of the conversion 3months on and 3k miles mixed driving later.

... nothing but good things to say about it. Am used to the better economy and cost of driving now, and have already redeemed half the entire conversion/installation costs in fuel savings using the lpg.

the warm weather, the japanese engine and my style of driving have led me to believe that the car performs perfectly normally as it would on its normal mix of topaz petrol and a maybe 300ml of dipetane per tank.

Having changed transmission and engine oils and filters recently, the car runs superbly and when the engine is nice and hot on long runs, I feel it's almost superior, as the lpg injection really seems to suit the engine when she's in tip-top running order at higher speeds.

Talked to a good few fellas during fills, in Dublin and around the country, and even an ex-installer up in Donegal, who fitted 200 conversions in the early to mid-80's. He reckoned the cost of gas went up at a certain point back then which deemed it un-economical to convert, while others have quoted lack of after sales servicing as being an issue.

I imagine that once people have settled on a converter that suits their needs and are happy with, and service the system as regular intervals, that there's nothing to stop a person from putting up big mileage on this system.

I recently had a water/power steering pump belt fitted in an awkward spot that involved the removal of the tensioners, and none of the 'hybrid-system' components either got in the way of the job, nor affected the work at hand. The engine is side mounted and all belts are in an awkward and tight area in the engine bay.

I'm happy with the system, the boys in Tallaght, and with the proximity of their filling services for a weekly top-up which is convenient for me, and one of the factors which led me to convert.

I have to say I admire some of the posters on here that have fitted their own systems, and tip my hat at them. Personally I'm happy to have the professionals I personally need to maintain their good installation lpgain but if you've got the time, tools and patience to do an install, and get it certified... fair play!

Anyways, in general, from the taxi-men, and hummer/LS430 limo drivers to the fiat punto guy I've chatted to at the pump, the system in it's whole is not something that people should be apprehensive about as long as they do a bit of research online to see if their particular engine is sutited to it.

All I can say, is happy days!

Jesus.

Fair play Briskit, appreciate the detailed update (and your OP) as I've been following this thread with interest.

I'd heard of LPG before but never knew much about it or anyone that had it fitted to their motor. Your situation shows that its possible for someone to drive a big, thirsty car in Ireland yet be able to manage the running costs at a reasonable rate.

Wishing you continued success with your new system.

KwackerJack

Say a car is doing 30 mpg on petrol what will it do on LPG?

conzy

KwackerJack wrote: »

Say a car is doing 30 mpg on petrol what will it do on LPG?

27ish

mullingar

KwackerJack wrote: »

Say a car is doing 30 mpg on petrol what will it do on LPG?

Its usually a 20% loss, so expect 24mpg-ish. But as its half the price of petrol, you could have the financial running costs of a 48mpg car

KwackerJack

mullingar wrote: »

Its usually a 20% loss, so expect 24mpg-ish. But as its half the price of K, you could have the financial running costs of a 48mpg car

Its a 1999 CLK 230 Kompressor. Will the mpg mess up the system seen as how it has the supercharger?

Esel

KwackerJack wrote: »

Its a 1999 CLK 230 Kompressor. Will the mpg mess up the system seen as how it has the supercharger?

Not sure what you mean?

KwackerJack

Esel wrote: »

Not sure what you mean?

The supercharger (Kompressor) forces the air in quicker to provide better fuel burn but will the super charger work correctly with LPG?

Sorry I meant LPG in last post not 'mpg'

biko

A host of posts removed as they pertain to threatened legal action between a user and a garage. User and garage banned.
Boards will not be caught in other party disputes.

kadman

Finally about to bite the bullit on this.

After months of research I think I have pinned down a knowledgeable guy, who has converted VW T25,s to LPG,

albeit a few years ago. But He seems to be well up to spec on the carburretted systems from way back when.

And I have spent a few meetings with him, grilling him on the T25 process. And I,m happy to give it a shot with him.

So I,ll keep you posted. Parts are ordered, and a couple of weeks, then all going well....cheaper motoring.

I,m currently doing 150mile roundtrip to Bray , twice a week. Costs me about 45 euro each run....

Justabout

I have a Lexus GS 300 (2003), nice car but thirsty. Any idea how much an LPG conversion will cost and what's this flash lube system ?

Thanks

Gerry

mullingar

Justabout wrote: »

I have a Lexus GS 300 (2003), nice car but thirsty. Any idea how much an LPG conversion will cost and what's this flash lube system ?

Thanks

Gerry

I have a GS300 too (a '98), a kit supplied/fitted should be approx €1200-1500 depending on the brand of kit.

Flash lube is to lubricate the valves when running LPG which is a pure dry fuel. Petrol is a natural lubricator on the valves and on some engines running LPG can cause premature valve seat wear.

Justabout

Thanks Mullingar, very useful information. I did a bit of research and these people seem to be offering a good deal Tech lpg at 045 944644 (not allowed to post url).

How to you find your Lexi, I have only recently bought mine having been a Merc driver for the past twenty years (but these days too many reliability probs with cheap Chinese components)

Thanks Gerry

mullingar

Justabout wrote: »

Thanks Mullingar, very useful information. I did a bit of research and these people seem to be offering a good deal Tech lpg at 045 944644 (not allowed to post url).

How to you find your Lexi, I have only recently bought mine having been a Merc driver for the past twenty years (but these days too many reliability probs with cheap Chinese components)

Thanks Gerry

Have mine 8 years now and all that went wrong in all that time (apart from wear/tear items) is a leaky power steering cooling pipe. A bullet proof reliable car. It just keeps passing the NCT too doing nothing to it.

kadman

All the parts are in now, so LPG conversion scheduled for this monday morning.

Flashlube is for lubrication for the valves , as lpg does not have the same lubrication properties as petrol. Its to safe guard overheating and wear on the valves. Of course running the engine on petrol at times helps in this as well.

jobless

very interesting thread, im in the market for a car at the moment and was going to go for a diesel, i do on average 350 miles a week.... would i be better off buying a petrol car and converting it to lpg seeing as petrols seem to be a lot cheaper than diesels these days...
i also live near a station in bray and parents live in tallaght so could fill up in either

jharr100

Bringing my 2004 Saab 9-5 2.0t in for conversion now in Cork.. Lads say it will be ready tomorrow morning at 10 am..
Happy days..
950 euro for a Stag system with 62 litre tank.