reps inspection

dryan

Had reps inspection today and I'm not happy.

In summary, have everything in good order around the place.
Yesterday, I purchased 3 store bullocks in the mart. I let them out into a field beside a river with some other stock and the usual pucking and shoving started. Water course is fenced with electric fence. Anyway, between. yesterday evening and this morning the fence was knocked and the cattle had walked a bit inside it. The wire was dragged out into the field so all Mr inspector could see was the fencing posts so he failed me. The penalty is severe. 25 - 50% of payment. He says I can appeal. What are my chances of winning this battle?

bob charles

dryan wrote: »

Had reps inspection today and I'm not happy.

In summary, have everything in good order around the place.
Yesterday, I purchased 3 store bullocks in the mart. I let them out into a field beside a river with some other stock and the usual pucking and shoving started. Water course is fenced with electric fence. Anyway, between. yesterday evening and this morning the fence was knocked and the cattle had walked a bit inside it. The wire was dragged out into the field so all Mr inspector could see was the fencing posts so he failed me. The penalty is severe. 25 - 50% of payment. He says I can appeal. What are my chances of winning this battle?

what exactly did this hilter fail you on, cattle knocking a fence. I would be taking picture of the event. It would be easy to spot if cattle were after breaking into grass there was no animal on for ages. what sort of a prick did you have doing the inspection

Floody Boreland

what happens with cross compliance if the penalty is upheld?

blue5000

Get a really good solicitor involved asap. Mention breach of contract, you signed up for a reps contract worth x amount, and a you got a reps payment worth x-20% Fight them every inch of the way, make it really hard for them pieces of sH1te to do their grossly over paid jobs. Are you in IFA?

st1979

dryan wrote: »

Had reps inspection today and I'm not happy.

In summary, have everything in good order around the place.
Yesterday, I purchased 3 store bullocks in the mart. I let them out into a field beside a river with some other stock and the usual pucking and shoving started. Water course is fenced with electric fence. Anyway, between. yesterday evening and this morning the fence was knocked and the cattle had walked a bit inside it. The wire was dragged out into the field so all Mr inspector could see was the fencing posts so he failed me. The penalty is severe. 25 - 50% of payment. He says I can appeal. What are my chances of winning this battle?

Very good chance on appeal. They hate going to appeal because it will end up in front of a reasonable person. Why are some inspectors like the gestapo. And some are trying to be reasonable people. I had 2 inspections for the same thing and the difference was night and day

rancher

dryan wrote: »

Had reps inspection today and I'm not happy.

In summary, have everything in good order around the place.
Yesterday, I purchased 3 store bullocks in the mart. I let them out into a field beside a river with some other stock and the usual pucking and shoving started. Water course is fenced with electric fence. Anyway, between. yesterday evening and this morning the fence was knocked and the cattle had walked a bit inside it. The wire was dragged out into the field so all Mr inspector could see was the fencing posts so he failed me. The penalty is severe. 25 - 50% of payment. He says I can appeal. What are my chances of winning this battle?

Inspections are based on what they find on the day, the inspector can be audited as well and would be foolish to put his job on the line.
Appeals usually achieve a reduction in the penalty and you should go ahead with it, tell your local IFA office, they're well used to dealing with these, they'll advise you what to do

dryan

rancher wrote: »

Inspections are based on what they find on the day, the inspector can be audited as well and would be foolish to put his job on the line.
Appeals usually achieve a reduction in the penalty and you should go ahead with it, tell your local IFA office, they're well used to dealing with these, they'll advise you what to do

Report says:
"watercourse plot x not fenced. Stakes present but no wire"

Reps planner is a teagasc. Also a member of ifa. Will be contacting both on Monday morning.

bob charles

dryan wrote: »

Report says:
"watercourse plot x not fenced. Stakes present but no wire"

Reps planner is a teagasc. Also a member of ifa. Will be contacting both on Monday morning.

did you not show the blind (insert expletive), the wire dragged around the field. The watercourse was fenced but fence was after being broken. Im sorry guys but allowing these people the cozy nice attitude only allows these power trippers to walk over you

kowtow

dryan wrote: »

Report says:
"watercourse plot x not fenced. Stakes present but no wire"

If the wire is on the ground near the stakes, photograph it.

The phrase written by the inspector is inaccurate. There was a wire, but it had become temporarily detached from the stakes.

Would he also fail a fence during the moment he walked through a gate in it?

delaval

Do not under any circumstances take on the inspector. Appeal and you should be fine. This inspector is clearly a prick or prickess and will be long after you've rattled their cage and may make things akward for you. It's a shocking situation but contact Teagasc find out who are boss is and discuss (pla the fool, don't be like a bull at a door) you'll be fine.

We have had several inspections and were always penalised, appealed each one and never a cent stopped.

Stay calm and follow the procedures

delaval

We have a neighbour complete madman. He had one of several Reps inspections and things weren't going to plan. When asked what occurred here as the inspector pass a freshly dug and back filled area he was told that's where the last inspector is. Needless to say he is flying it now...............not!!!

just do it

Tend to agree with delaval on this one. Play the ball not the man. The issue is fencing posts in place but no fencing wire.
Provide:

• evidence of purchase on the day before inspection
• picture showing growth other side of fence demonstrating that it isn't grazed
• picture showing wire on ground, or repaired wire
• did you have to buy any fencing supplies to mend the fence? Present receipts for these

Attack the inspector and the Department will have to defend him and go through with the penalty. Play it smart, find out the head inspector for your area (teagasc will tell you who he is) and appeal the finding backing it up with as much evidence as you can muster.

Dampintheattic

just do it wrote: »

Tend to agree with delaval on this one. Play the ball not the man. The issue is fencing posts in place but no fencing wire.
Provide:

• evidence of purchase on the day before inspection
• picture showing growth other side of fence demonstrating that it isn't grazed
• picture showing wire on ground, or repaired wire
• did you have to buy any fencing supplies to mend the fence? Present receipts for these

Attack the inspector and the Department will have to defend him and go through with the penalty. Play it smart, find out the head inspector for your area (teagasc will tell you who he is) and appeal the finding backing it up with as much evidence as you can muster.

Stick the pictures up here, so we can be a REPS inspector for a day. -;)

dryan

Just an update on this one.

Teagasc guy is kinda telling me im screwed - Wire not there when inspected - take the hit! dont think he is in favour of taking on the dept bies.

Contacted the IFA this morning and explained the situation - he seems more positive and is happy to work on the appeal.

Waiting on the letter from the department with the actual penalty they are giving me - somewhere between 25% - 50% cut.

picture attached of the fence after it was repaired.

You dont need to be a genius to figure out where the fence ran before the event.

Also, it should be noted that the area in the attached pictures was under water up until the end of May due to the shannon flood so the vegetation outside the fence is only starting to grow now.

ABlur

I think if an area is subject to tides then fencing not compulsory also if its a habitat. Reps planner specification document page 49 is the refence for this.

Dampintheattic

dryan wrote: »

Just an update on this one.

Teagasc guy is kinda telling me im screwed - Wire not there when inspected - take the hit! dont think he is in favour of taking on the dept bies.

Contacted the IFA this morning and explained the situation - he seems more positive and is happy to work on the appeal.

Waiting on the letter from the department with the actual penalty they are giving me - somewhere between 25% - 50% cut.

picture attached of the fence after it was repaired.

You dont need to be a genius to figure out where the fence ran before the event.

Also, it should be noted that the area in the attached pictures was under water up until the end of May due to the shannon flood so the vegetation outside the fence is only starting to grow now.

But, (not wanting to defend a box ticker, or anything like that), wouldn't the said box ticker, be well entitled to see evidence of wire having been on the stakes. Cattle busting breaking through, wouldn't likely, roll the wire up after themselves, and put it in the shed -;)

Just saying! What will the appeals guy say when he sees your picture?
Did the inspector take pictures?

just do it

Did the inspector see the broken wire on the day?

jomoloney

dryan wrote: »

Had reps inspection today and I'm not happy.

The penalty is severe. 25 - 50% of payment. He says I can appeal. What are my chances of winning this battle?

is that penalty just on your reps payment , or on your total SFP

RaggyDays

In all fairness the fencing looks piss poor. The reeds at the waterside look like they’ve been grazed for a while. I`d say you haven’t a leg to stand on

rancher

RaggyDays wrote: »

In all fairness the fencing looks piss poor. The reeds at the waterside look like they’ve been grazed for a while. I`d say you haven’t a leg to stand on

Agreed...very poor quality fencing for what's supposed to be a permanent fence, can't see the appeal being successful either

mf240

the only hope you have is play the victim and say that the fence got washed away in the flood and your owe so much money for meal and feed after fodder crisis that you cant afford to lose this payment.

dryan

rancher wrote: »

Agreed...very poor quality fencing for what's supposed to be a permanent fence, can't see the appeal being successful either

Who mentioned anything about a permanent fence?

The fence is temporary given the way the water levels in the shannon fluctuates around here.

5/6 weeks ago, the area in the picture was 2/3 feet under water. It is under water for 6 months of the year. 2 inches of rain would bring the waterline back up to the fence.
Cattle dont eat reeds by the way. The vegetation growth along the shannon banks is just very poor this year due to high water levels for nearly 3 years now.

I recognise the quality of fencing but this system works best for me. The stakes come for free and there is a perfectly valid reason for using them. i wont bore yea with the details.

Dampintheattic

dryan wrote: »

Who mentioned anything about a permanent fence?

The fence is temporary given the way the water levels in the shannon fluctuates around here.

5/6 weeks ago, the area in the picture was 2/3 feet under water. It is under water for 6 months of the year. 2 inches of rain would bring the waterline back up to the fence.
Cattle dont eat reeds by the way. The vegetation growth along the shannon banks is just very poor this year due to high water levels for nearly 3 years now.

I recognise the quality of fencing but this system works best for me. The stakes come for free and there is a perfectly valid reason for using them. i wont bore yea with the details.

What about the wire, or lack of it?
That's the six million dollar question, from an appeal point of view?

RaggyDays

Were only telling as we see it. And from those pictures the fencing is piss poor and could well be about 20 foot too far in on the watercourse.
You sound like a bit of a chancer in all fairness

whelan1

not being smart but if i knew i was having an inspection i would be up at dawn, checking everything and rechecking before they arrived, if it was obvious the cattle had been out a while then its tough ****

delaval

Lads and lassies I think you all very well trained by the Dept.

The man had no other issue and therefore I'm of the view that the inspector was being a prick end of.

So, the stakes weren't machined and the wire not strung professionally but it was a slip up and that's all.

ford2600

Reps inspection is really about who you get.
Got a really decent inspector last summer. Couldn't have argued with 25% fine, got a polite verbal reprimand, no fine.

Farmer Pudsey

Fencing did not help your case. I can under stand your issue regarding flood however most reps farmers are getting 5K and more/year. If there was no wire or sign of wire the inspector has a point. Yes he could be lenient but he is entitled to fine. You have to remember inspectors may not be from a farming background. Like another poster said I be up at 5AM as well if i had one( I am out of reps for two years and little hope of getting back in even to AEOS).

The other issue is that if cattle broke it it was not stockproof. That is what you are being paid for. Was there a good shock off the fence if there was cattle would seldom pull it all over the place, What if it had been an EU inspection every Irish farmer in reps would be tarred. I do not know how long an area it is or if the reason it is not fenced with permanent posts is because of boats. However if that was the case you should have it mentioned on the Reps plan. Any good fence would last 5 years even if being floodded and would more than likly be cheaper than a fine.

bob charles

the fencing maybe poor but I bet it just states in REPS docs that a permanent fence X meters from the shore needs to be present. The fence pictured on here may not be mosts on here standard of fencing but thats not the point. I wonder is there a paragraph in REPS documentation that sets out the quality of fence (bet not)

bob charles

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The other issue is that if cattle broke it it was not stockproof. That is what you are being paid for.

I have seen plenty of stockproofed fences that cattle broke out through. I have also seen a gate and concrete pier knocked in the corner of a field by a bunch of cattle being chased by dogs. There is no such think as 100% stockproof fencing.

One thing I learnt in my schooling is never admit something and you are always right until a solid case is proved against you.

nashmach

bob charles wrote: »

the fencing maybe poor but I bet it just states in REPS docs that a permanent fence X meters from the shore needs to be present. The fence pictured on here may not be mosts on here standard of fencing but thats not the point. I wonder is there a paragraph in REPS documentation that sets out the quality of fence (bet not)

Not sure on REPS 4 but AEOS specifies that it has to be done to an IS 248 (number may not be correct) standard.

Farmer Pudsey

bob charles wrote: »

I have seen plenty of stockproofed fences that cattle broke out through. I have also seen a gate and concrete pier knocked in the corner of a field by a bunch of cattle being chased by dogs. There is no such think as 100% stockproof fencing.

One thing I learnt in my schooling is never admit something and you are always right until a solid case is proved against you.

I agree Bob we all have a few neighbours but there is always only one (unless you are unlucky) who's cattle break in. And yes you can be unlucky with dogs or a few wild ones but in general if you have fairly good fences cattle will stay in.

Dampintheattic

bob charles wrote: »

I have seen plenty of stockproofed fences that cattle broke out through. I have also seen a gate and concrete pier knocked in the corner of a field by a bunch of cattle being chased by dogs. There is no such think as 100% stockproof fencing.

One thing I learnt in my schooling is never admit something and you are always right until a solid case is proved against you.

There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO evidence, of wire on that fence, based on the photographs. There should be some sign, of some bit of wire somewhere.

Fugs sake, what do fellas expect.

It's a fuggin right pity, the inspectors and regulators of the financial system, didn't do THEIR, job as good as the lads in the dept of agriculture.

If they did, maybe your local hurling club, would be able to field a team, these days

bob charles

Dampintheattic wrote: »

There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO evidence, of wire on that fence, based on the photographs. There should be some sign, of some bit of wire somewhere.
=

But there is wire on the fence, It wouldnt be my own standard of fencing but none the less its a fence. Now if what Nash says is correct about there being a standard then so be it, but I would first be looking to see if such a standard is mentioned in the regulations

just do it

dryan wrote: »

picture attached of the fence after it was repaired.

Do you have pictures of before you repaired it? Given the way wire is wrapped around these posts as you go, livestock that break through such a fence trend to drag wire and some posts with them. If the inspector happened upon this scene it would have been obvious enough that it was recently breached.

Was it an announced inspection?

Farmer Pudsey

bob charles wrote: »

But there is wire on the fence, It wouldnt be my own standard of fencing but none the less its a fence. Now if what Nash says is correct about there being a standard then so be it, but I would first be looking to see if such a standard is mentioned in the regulations

Bob we all complain about red tape and regulations. And this is why we end up with sh#te like that. Some fellas make no attempt to obey the letter of the law it is all take. If there was a genuine reason that he could not put up a permenant fence like boating/canoeing along the river and a fear that wire or stakes would sink a boat when flodded then it should be mentioned on the plan. I got somthing similar mentioned on one. Then in the case of an inspection at least you can make your case.

Like other posters said was there wire on the ground when the inspector called. Usually if cattle get through wire they pull them type of posts all around the place. Even if REPS4 fails to mention a fencing standard it specifically mentions apermenant stock proof fence which what he had up was not.

Because of sh#te like this the Fencing standard was mentioned in AEOS documents which cost farmer involved in these schemes extra money because other's will not make an attempt. I had a neighbour that had such an issue it stated on his plan he had to get rid of scrap in his yard. Also he had a few steel frames (chassis off 2 mobile home's)that he was going to put on the side of a hay shed. He got fined. I made the point to him that he could have got shiny heavy duty gate's for the side of the shed for way less than the amount of the fine.

In REPS/AEOS if you are getting money to do somthing it has to be done in case you get an inspection because you will get fined. Some inspectors may give you a chance to fix it but they do not have to.

rancher

dryan wrote: »

Who mentioned anything about a permanent fence?

The fence is temporary given the way the water levels in the shannon fluctuates around here.

5/6 weeks ago, the area in the picture was 2/3 feet under water. It is under water for 6 months of the year. 2 inches of rain would bring the waterline back up to the fence.
Cattle dont eat reeds by the way. The vegetation growth along the shannon banks is just very poor this year due to high water levels for nearly 3 years now.

I recognise the quality of fencing but this system works best for me. The stakes come for free and there is a perfectly valid reason for using them. i wont bore yea with the details.

That's just the point....it didn't work
I'd also maintain that you need a permanant fence if you're at risk of an unannounced inspection for five years

Mulumpy

When you receive a penalty is it just for that particular year or for subsequent years?

dryan

OK, let me jump in here and clear up a few things.

quoet from the 'SPECIFICATION FOR REPS PLANNERS IN THE PREPARATION OF REPS 4 PLANs':
"For environmental and practical reasons, in some circumstances it may be appropriate to provide temporary fences only when bovines are present. For example where there is a possibility of permanent fences being washed away over the winter period especially along eroding riverbanks. "

1. notice of inspection - 2 hours.
I was in work and at 10am i took a call from the department telling me is was selected for inspection.
From my point of view, everything was in order so i told him to work away.
There was no way that i could get the time off at such short notice.
I rang the guy at 2pm to see how things were going and he was finished.

2. Quality of the watercourse fence.
Like i said above, this system is working for me. This is a tempory fence.

The other 3 boundaries are fenced with permanent fences with machined posts and 3 rows of barbed wire.

The first time i fenced the watercourse many years ago i used the machined stakes with the screw in insulators. That summer on 2 occasions, a few young lads down fishing on a sunday afternoon decided to fcuk half of my stakes into the river. Stakes were replaced and for some reason, every now and then the fence itself was damaged when people would be fishing or duck shoting along the watercourse.... i wont even go into the damage from the odd tourist or boat...

My opinion here is that if someone gets a whack from an electric fencer unexpectedly, then they will take the frustration out by damaging the fence itself.

I then started using the steel electric fence posts instead. Come fishing or shooting season, i was finding that the posts were being bent at 90 degrees at the ground so that people could get access to the watercourse.
I also found that cattle (newly purchased) were breaking it down after being let into the field.
I then tried an experiment with these 'cheap' posts that i can muster up in me spare time. And hey presto, nobody even bothered with them. The white plastic also serves a purpose as it makes it more obvious to the cattle that there is a boundry in place.
If its a case that i end up losing the fence in a flood, then no worries. all it cost me was a bit of time in the first place.
Despite whats being said above, in 18 years fencing watercourses, i have yet to see one survive a winter flood.

I also like to clarify that i am not a chancer.
Im a part time farmer that is Board-Bia certified and never failed a department inspection prior to this.
I spend every minute of my spare time on the farm and would only love to be at it full time. On this inspection, this was the only offence reported.

Was there wire in the field - yes!

Do i feel hard done by - yes!

Farmer Pudsey

Dyran if everything is as you said then I hope your appeal is sucessful. But just a note you are entitled to I think 2 week notice of an inspection. As far as I know they can only inspect stock at short notice( I may be wrong). In your caseyou taught everything was ok and it would not have mattered. However being on hand to explain even why you use stakes like that can often influence an inspector's perception or evening informing him og the nature and reason the fences is as is often helps. The other thing is maybe and we all seldom do is to get thing like these mentioned in anupdated plan. Even getting your planner to inform reps sections and getting it added to the file can often shortcut hassle.

MY points re somthing's that goes on however remain valid. There are some chancers around in these schemes and it is all take and no give and these make it harder on others who try there best.

Conmaicne Mara

I don't think they have to give any notice do they? Some just do out of courtesy. I know the one REPS inspection I had the notice I got was a phone call when they were outside the door of the house.

nashmach

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I know the one REPS inspection I had the notice I got was a phone call when they were outside the door of the house.

That is definitely true - had the same here but even at that he was fine and willing to go about his business.

I think dryan's post sums up his situation and we were probably a bit harsh on him - sounds like he has a case and definitely worth pursuing to see where it goes.

Best of luck.

Conmaicne Mara

They way I'd look at it is, what do I have to lose by appealing? Answer, SFA, so I would appeal.

Birdnuts

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I don't think they have to give any notice do they? Some just do out of courtesy. I know the one REPS inspection I had the notice I got was a phone call when they were outside the door of the house.

Most notice I ever got was about half an hour. Though to be fair
the 2 lads I've dealt with seemed pleasant enough.

delaval

dryan wrote: »

OK, let me jump in here and clear up a few things.

quoet from the 'SPECIFICATION FOR REPS PLANNERS IN THE PREPARATION OF REPS 4 PLANs':
"For environmental and practical reasons, in some circumstances it may be appropriate to provide temporary fences only when bovines are present. For example where there is a possibility of permanent fences being washed away over the winter period especially along eroding riverbanks. "

1. notice of inspection - 2 hours.
I was in work and at 10am i took a call from the department telling me is was selected for inspection.
From my point of view, everything was in order so i told him to work away.
There was no way that i could get the time off at such short notice.
I rang the guy at 2pm to see how things were going and he was finished.

2. Quality of the watercourse fence.
Like i said above, this system is working for me. This is a tempory fence.

The other 3 boundaries are fenced with permanent fences with machined posts and 3 rows of barbed wire.

The first time i fenced the watercourse many years ago i used the machined stakes with the screw in insulators. That summer on 2 occasions, a few young lads down fishing on a sunday afternoon decided to fcuk half of my stakes into the river. Stakes were replaced and for some reason, every now and then the fence itself was damaged when people would be fishing or duck shoting along the watercourse.... i wont even go into the damage from the odd tourist or boat...

My opinion here is that if someone gets a whack from an electric fencer unexpectedly, then they will take the frustration out by damaging the fence itself.

I then started using the steel electric fence posts instead. Come fishing or shooting season, i was finding that the posts were being bent at 90 degrees at the ground so that people could get access to the watercourse.
I also found that cattle (newly purchased) were breaking it down after being let into the field.
I then tried an experiment with these 'cheap' posts that i can muster up in me spare time. And hey presto, nobody even bothered with them. The white plastic also serves a purpose as it makes it more obvious to the cattle that there is a boundry in place.
If its a case that i end up losing the fence in a flood, then no worries. all it cost me was a bit of time in the first place.
Despite whats being said above, in 18 years fencing watercourses, i have yet to see one survive a winter flood.

I also like to clarify that i am not a chancer.
Im a part time farmer that is Board-Bia certified and never failed a department inspection prior to this.
I spend every minute of my spare time on the farm and would only love to be at it full time. On this inspection, this was the only offence reported.

Was there wire in the field - yes!

Do i feel hard done by - yes!

Well said, this is your appeal!!!