garda said gun must be cased

sniperman

hi all,a lad i was talking to told me he was stopped by the guards half a mile outside nenagh town,and told he can cannot be carrying his shotgun without a case/bag,he had it on a sling round his shoulder, he was on a main road walking to his permission,i have often walked out to my permission with the hmr on my shoulder with sling,so am i breaking the law?

deeksofdoom

Utter bollocks, did he check to see if it was unloaded.

Would have thought that having the gun unloaded was more important than having the gun in a case.

Cass

Legally he does not have to have it cased. He doesn't even have to have it unloaded. So long as he is not brandishing it in a manner likely to alarm the public then he is fine.

However a little common sense. If walking down the main road it might be an idea to buy a cheap carry case (like €20 or so) to stick it in. You really do not want to push the issue with the Garda because whether legally right or wrong it can get awkward. So for the sake of a peaceful life, and no grief just get one.

On one of my permissions the only place to park is 300 yards from where i enter. I have a cheap case that i stick the gun into and then ditch it behind a tree when i climb the gate.

sniperman

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Utter bollocks, did he check to see if it was unloaded.

Would have thought that having the gun unloaded was more important than having the gun in a case.

did not ask if or not was unloaded ,just said it has to be bagged or cased,when carrying in a public place,but he was on a road with not much public around

sniperman

Cass wrote: »

Legally he does not have to have it cased. He doesn't even have to have it unloaded. So long as he is not brandishing it in a manner likely to alarm the public then he is fine.

However a little common sense. If walking down the main road it might be an idea to buy a cheap carry case (like €20 or so) to stick it in. You really do not want to push the issue with the Garda because whether legally right or wrong it can get awkward. So for the sake of a peaceful life, and no grief just get one.

On one of my permissions the only place to park is 300 yards from where i enter. I have a cheap case that i stick the gun into and then ditch it behind a tree when i climb the gate.

That makes alot of sense,dont want to get on the wrong side of some guard for the sake of a €20 case,im gonna get me one;)

Mezamo

Absolutely agree here with Cass... sometimes its just better to do things for the sake of a peaceful life and not draw unwanted attention to yourself;);)

garv123

Sometimes a case is awkward if you do not take the same path home. I dont take one as I'd have to go a long way out of my way to get the case.
Ive passed guards and just got a salute off them, and that was when I was carrying the pump action so it hadnt even a sling on it.

Cass

And that is grand for you, but for the OP it's obviously going to be an issue.

My permissions border two districts. Like you i get a salute from the ones in one district, and for the most part not a bother in the other. However there is one Garda, nervous eric, and whenever he is out he always stops. Even if we are just standing at the jeep.

So to keep him happy i use the case. As said i'm not going to get into it with him or any Garda to be proven right or win some meaningless moral victory.


Not getting at you there, just saying in general.

.17hmr

Man they are getting very picky down your way but if it saves you getting a bollocking from a power tripping garda then it would be worth it and keeps all happy .

vapour_trail

I was travelling to a clay shoot on a Sunday morning not too long ago and was stopped at a checkpoint. The gun was on the back seat in a slip and the ammo was in an ammo bag in the boot. The guard asked me to pull in at the side. He went through my license and told me the gun had to be in a locked box when travelling and I could lose my license. I told him I wasnt aware of any such law and explained I was on my way to a clay shoot. After a good 10 mins of explaining how I was unaware of such a law and that I had the gun in a protective sleeve and the ammo separate in the boot he just said "if I get stopped in the future the next guard mightnt be willing to let it go"

Cass

It's another case of the Commissioner's guidelines being interpreted as law.

In the guidelines it states;

Commissioner's Guidelines wrote:

• During transport, firearms must always be stored in a case/sleeve, out of sight in a locked vehicle boot. They should not be immediately accessible to the driver or any passenger.
• No gun should be loaded with ammunition while traveling to or from a shoot.
• Where possible, rifle bolts and shotgun fore ends, pistol top slides and magazines should be removed and kept separately.
• That the firearm is never left inside the seating area of a vehicle: whether occupied or unattended.
• If it is necessary to stop and leave the vehicle, reasonable steps should be taken to ensure the safety of the firearm in question. It is a good idea to also place in the boot anything which might indicate that a firearm may be in the vehicle e.g. hunting clothing, stalking stick, hunting knife, binoculars, decoys, hunting hat etc.

So while not illegal it is advisable to do what you can to avoid confrontation. After saying that do not be walked on. Give your side in a calm and polite manner. If that fails then insist. The worst thing that will happen is they try and seize it. However i would never hand over a firearm to a Garda on the side of a road. I would keep possession and follow them to a station where i would explain my position again, and use the net to prove it.

garv123

vapour_trail wrote: »

I was travelling to a clay shoot on a Sunday morning not too long ago and was stopped at a checkpoint. The gun was on the back seat in a slip and the ammo was in an ammo bag in the boot. The guard asked me to pull in at the side. He went through my license and told me the gun had to be in a locked box when travelling and I could lose my license. I told him I wasnt aware of any such law and explained I was on my way to a clay shoot. After a good 10 mins of explaining how I was unaware of such a law and that I had the gun in a protective sleeve and the ammo separate in the boot he just said "if I get stopped in the future the next guard mightnt be willing to let it go"

Yawn.. Tell him commissioners guidelines are exactly as the name says.. guidelines. Also a lot of guns wont fit in a case in a boot in cars. They would love to make hassle over noting though.

One shot on kill

If your on a public road should the gun be broke.

yubabill1

What about crew cab jeeps? Makes a mockery of the guidelines IMHO.

I find joe public is getting very afraid of anyone carrying a gun - gardai asked us to talk to a security guard near where we shoot - found him extremely nervous of us!

he was from Dublin originally, so explains why he was afraid of us with a 22.

If the public don't see firearms (ie cased etc) what does that do for their goodwill to us?

Cass

Common sense approach again.

When on a public road, and other public area have it unloaded and broken (where possible).

Remember this is less about how the gun is transported (to a degree) and more about people's perception. Someone not used to guns or of a nervous disposition might call the Gardaí as soon as they see the gun regardless of whether it's broken or not. All you can do is minimize the "disruption".

What about crew cab jeeps? Makes a mockery of the guidelines IMHO.

As do motorbikes, etc. Hence why they are guidelines, and not law. IOW do your best.

he was from Dublin originally, so explains why he was afraid of us with a 22.

Location has little to do with it imo. The thought that "city folk" are more nervous of guns because they are not as prevalent may have a whiff of truth, but in the larger scheme of things people in general are nervous of them.

If the public don't see firearms (ie cased etc) what does that do for their goodwill to us

Are you saying they should be able to see us walking the streets with guns? To acclimatise them to the sight of guns. I'm afraid that is simply not going to work. They will only view it as armed men walking around.

yubabill1

I was brought up in an environment where guns were accepted as tools and provoked no interest whatsoever, except from young boys, perhaps.

The media have put paid to that attitude. No-one went around brandishing their gun in a threatening or belligerent manner, any more than they did their shovels, scythes or whatever.

Yes, I am acutely aware those days are gone.

Doesn't make me feel any better when women tell their kids in the buggy about the "bold men with the gun" which happened recently.

get the picture?

68Murph68

If someone is carrying a gun in a public place and a member of the general public sees it and doesn't know the individual, the odds are pretty high they are going to call the guards and then the guards will have to respond, for fear a serious incident might be underway.

Basically I'd imagine the reason the guards want guns covered in public places is to cut down on their workload/allow them to spend their time working on other matters.[Delete as appropriate]

yubabill1

Excuse me, but when someone is carrying an uncased gun in a place where they have permission to shoot and the public decides to explore that place, they should entertain the possibility of encountering shooters.

Cass

I'll ask again so.

Do you think we should all be walking the streets/roads with our guns on display to acclimatise people to the sight of them?

As for brandishing in a threatening or belligerent manner. All it takes is for someone to be uncomfortable then to report you. It also includes "without causing danger to the public safety or peace".

Why would you want to. I said this before, but i remember being at a gun shop. Waiting in the car park for them to open after lunch. While there a lad pulls up. Gets out, and goes to the boot of his car. Opens it, and takes out a shoulder harness/holster. Then proceeds to place two handguns into the holster (one under each arm). Then walks into the gunshop with all this shít strapped to him. WHY? What possible function could it serve. Why was the case they were in not suitable to bring them into the shop?

Luckily the shop owner copped it and told him to feck off.

Excuse me, but when someone is carrying an uncased gun in a place where they have permission to shoot and the public decides to explore that place, they should entertain the possibility of encountering shooters

Absolutely, but that is not what is being discussed. We are talking about public roads, and not the actual lands where a person shoots.

thefa

yubabill1 wrote: »

Excuse me, but when someone is carrying an uncased gun in a place where they have permission to shoot and the public decides to explore that place, they should entertain the possibility of encountering shooters.

The post you seem to be responding to does not mention the situation you described, nor does the original post in this thread.

For all the responsibility that goes with owing and using a gun, it shouldn't be much of an issue casing it in public areas.

yubabill1

A previous poster was talking about walking to his permissions.

Carrying weapons openly in Dublin city centre (as many of us did in the day - while the country was in a state of emergency, btw) is no longer a wise choice.

Problem is, the public are roaming as they please and sometimes their prejudices are challenged by what they see.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

A previous poster was talking about walking to his permissions.

Along a public, main road.

sniperman wrote: »

.............. he had it on a sling round his shoulder, he was on a main road walking to his permission..............

Carrying weapons openly in Dublin city centre (as many of us did in the day - while the country was in a state of emergency, btw) is no longer a wise choice.

When 1910-1922 or during the 70's? Either way times change. We have to change with them.

Problem is, the public are roaming as they please and sometimes their prejudices are challenged by what they see.

As i said if someone meets me on one of my permissions, in a field, then tough. However if i'm walking down a main road, or street i try to take care to either make it less conspicuous or not seen at all.

68Murph68

yubabill1 wrote: »

Excuse me, but when someone is carrying an uncased gun in a place where they have permission to shoot and the public decides to explore that place, they should entertain the possibility of encountering shooters.

Agree but the situation being discussed was in a public place.

Look at if from the guards point of view. They get a call from a member of the public saying "I saw someone walking along such and such a road carrying a gun"

The guards probably ask for a description and odds are they have a likely idea of who the person is question is and where they are coming/going from to shoot.

However there are not going to take any risk that the person isn't a serious threat to the public in case they are wrong and they will have to investigate it every single time.

The odds of a member of the public ringing the guards to say I saw a gun case are dramatically reduced compared to the odds of a member of the public ringing the ringing the guards to say I saw a gun in a public place.

yubabill1

Sign of the times 68murph.

But think about this; why could I drive around Dublin during the height of the troubles with a gun on the back seat, park around Garnetts & Keegan's or Watts Bros. on the quays, take out said weapon and walk to the shop etc., without getting arrested/reported and nowadays I know I couldn't do something like that without a serious situation arising?

68Murph68

yubabill1 wrote: »

Sign of the times 68murph.

But think about this; why could I drive around Dublin during the height of the troubles with a gun on the back seat, park around Garnetts & Keegan's or Watts Bros. on the quays, take out said weapon and walk to the shop etc., without getting arrested/reported and nowadays I know I couldn't do something like that without a serious situation arising?

I'd imagine the key reason for the change in terms of attitudes would be the increase in the number of crimes involving guns compared to 40 years ago.

I don't have any stats but I would be shocked if there wasn't a marked increase in the number of crimes where guns were involved compared to 40 years ago especially in Dublin.

Obviously its a sign of the times.

vapour_trail

68Murph68 wrote: »

I'd imagine the key reason for the change in terms of attitudes would be the increase in the number of crimes involving guns compared to 40 years ago.

I don't have any stats but I would be shocked if there wasn't a marked increase in the number of crimes where guns were involved compared to 40 years ago especially in Dublin.

Obviously its a sign of the times.

If this craze of airsoft hadnt come, would there be so many crimes where guns are involved...?

yubabill1

Don't know anything about airsoft, sorry.

Think it's drugs-related myself.

Irish Lion

Last weekend, I was walking from my car to the gate of my permission (about 50yrds) and a squad car came toward me and stopped. He asked who I was and what type of gun it was and did I have a license for it. I showed him the license and then he asked where I was going, and I pointed over to the gate. He then asked if the gun was loaded and I showed him the bolt in the bolt pouch on my belt and I took the mags out of the bag. He said "Enjoy" and went on his way. No mention of cases or anything like that...
I kinda knew I was doing nothing wrong but I was still a bucket of sweat for some reason........

bravestar

To the OP and anyone else who thinks its ok to walk around with a firearm openly on a main road, expect blue lights and firearms to be pointed at you. Until it is dealt with, you are a potential threat.

It doesn't matter what you think, or this guideline or that. You will be treated as a threat. Simple solution is to cover up.

How would you feel if your sister broke up with her fella and when he went storming up the road with his over and under to blow her head off, the gardai saw him and said " ah sure that's aul johnny with his gun, going for a few shots" and left him be.

A firearm has no business being uncovered in a public place, unless its ready to do the business.

.17hmr

bravestar wrote: »

To the OP and anyone else who thinks its ok to walk around with a firearm openly on a main road, expect blue lights and firearms to be pointed at you. Until it is dealt with, you are a potential threat.

It doesn't matter what you think, or this guideline or that. You will be treated as a threat. Simple solution is to cover up.

How would you feel if your sister broke up with her fella and when he went storming up the road with his over and under to blow her head off, the gardai saw him and said " ah sure that's aul johnny with his gun, going for a few shots" and left him be.

A firearm has no business being uncovered in a public place, unless its ready to do the business.

Why should i have to worry about walking down the road or down the town with the dog and gun ??i have offten crossed my town to get to other gun club lands gun broke and smile and nod to every one never once have i had any problems and why should i if you are not causing problems then why should there be a problem .

Cass

Hold on a sec.

I've been saying all along about trying your best to be discreet when transporting firearms both in vehicles, and on foot. However the above statement is over the top, and a little sensationalist.

If the Gardaí, and it has happened to me numerous times, see me with my friends out shooting, all dressed in camo gear, boots on, cartridge belt, etc walking along a main road, but in a known shooting area they most likely will look, but realise (by using common sense) what is happening. They may stop or may not. Either way i'm good with it. The few times they have stopped in during the off season (March to August)

However "my sister's fella" marching up a street of a housing estate/residential area, in jeans/trackies (civies) etc with a shotgun and a "look" on his face is a completely different situation. To view the two as being like for like is not comparable.

In the first instance there would be no armed response. Even if some Garda over-reacted and called for such what are the chances of the ERU (RRU) being on the scene in the couple of minutes it takes for lads out hunting to go off into a field. If they somehow were to arrive in time what do you think the consequences for the Garda would be for not questioning the lads or getting a feel of the situation?

This is why i keep saying common sense. It does not only apply to the shooters. Plus, and as was said above, you cannot dismiss the guidelines no more than you can use them as law or a basis for prosecution. It's not law.

However as i've said throughout this thread why not just try be discreet (cover up) where possible and avoid the whole incident.

sniperman

bravestar wrote: »

To the OP and anyone else who thinks its ok to walk around with a firearm openly on a main road, expect blue lights and firearms to be pointed at you. Until it is dealt with, you are a potential threat.

It doesn't matter what you think, or this guideline or that. You will be treated as a threat. Simple solution is to cover up.

How would you feel if your sister broke up with her fella and when he went storming up the road with his over and under to blow her head off, the gardai saw him and said " ah sure that's aul johnny with his gun, going for a few shots" and left him be.

A firearm has no business being uncovered in a public place, unless its ready to do the business.

i think anyone that was going to do what you said,blow someones head off,would not be carrying the gun on a sling over their shoulder,coat and wellies on,leading a springer,unless aul johnny was going to do in the dog as well.

Grizzly 45

Wont be long before we will be getting the same treatment as a few piegon shooters get in the UK..SO19 armed response,choppers,HKs at the ready frogmarched off the stubble and bundled into squad cars and driven off at top speed to the local chokey.Because some Biddy Curtaintwitcher with an attitude or chip on her shoulders reported some "armed terrorists in camoflage out shooting machine guns." In the Kent countryside!:mad:
Ireland has changed even on this level,courtsey to the Celtic Tiger and city slickers moving out into the sticks ,where they think its all Emmerdale or something.:rolleyes: So dont be surprised if this happens next.:(

Its odd though that its only IRL and the UK that has this problem..Europe the police dont even give hunters a second glance walking down the roads with slung uncased guns.Apart maybe to wish them happy hunting.Nor do the many civilians who use the forests for whatever activity either.Nor is it like the Continent hasnt had, or has terrorism or major criminality either.

TBH a simple bit of cop on on both sides would dismiss this problem very quickly.Highly unlikely that armed IRA men and criminals will be out and about on public highways in realtree cammo with dogs ,and 20 quid worth of gunslip not to alarm the paranoid citizenry when out and about might be worth it.

dmcgarry

yubabill1 wrote: »

Sign of the times 68murph.

But think about this; why could I drive around Dublin during the height of the troubles with a gun on the back seat, park around Garnetts & Keegan's or Watts Bros. on the quays, take out said weapon and walk to the shop etc., without getting arrested/reported and nowadays I know I couldn't do something like that without a serious situation arising?

it's the same way you used to be able to drink and drive/not wear a seat belt, laws change

bravestar

Cass wrote: »

Hold on a sec.

I've been saying all along about trying your best to be discreet when transporting firearms both in vehicles, and on foot. However the above statement is over the top, and a little sensationalist.

If the Gardaí, and it has happened to me numerous times, see me with my friends out shooting, all dressed in camo gear, boots on, cartridge belt, etc walking along a main road, but in a known shooting area they most likely will look, but realise (by using common sense) what is happening. They may stop or may not. Either way i'm good with it. The few times they have stopped in during the off season (March to August)

However "my sister's fella" marching up a street of a housing estate/residential area, in jeans/trackies (civies) etc with a shotgun and a "look" on his face is a completely different situation. To view the two as being like for like is not comparable.

In the first instance there would be no armed response. Even if some Garda over-reacted and called for such what are the chances of the ERU (RRU) being on the scene in the couple of minutes it takes for lads out hunting to go off into a field. If they somehow were to arrive in time what do you think the consequences for the Garda would be for not questioning the lads or getting a feel of the situation?

This is why i keep saying common sense. It does not only apply to the shooters. Plus, and as was said above, you cannot dismiss the guidelines no more than you can use them as law or a basis for prosecution. It's not law.

However as i've said throughout this thread why not just try be discreet (cover up) where possible and avoid the whole incident.

Cass I know your an advocate for a common sence approach and I agree with you.

My point is, people should not be whining when they are dealt with robustly or, especially, in an overly relaxed manor as seems to be the case. Which to be honest, makes me chringe.

I know what your saying about people having a "look" in my example, but I can tell you, more often than not, people do not have a standard look when they are out to do something and to think that they do is a bit naive. You may think it sensationalist or over the top, I don't, and that comes from experience, not an opinion.

I don't see what some posters problems are, if your gun is not in use and is in a very public area. Cover it up. It's really quite simple.

One shot on kill

Jasus lads. It's a gun infairness as cass says Avoid the attention
Out of site out of mind.

At the end of the day who cares what other people think but bring undue attention on yourself. Lets be honest no one wants the hastle. If your going 50 yards grand,
in my opinion if you have to walk down the town then cover the gun it or make it as less of an attraction as you can

simple I wanna go for a shot and enjoy it I don't want to be stopped annoyed and put out of my comfort zone especially for my own easyly avoidable actions.
If people want to walk around with there guns in hand with not to much care for others views.

By all means grand

But when the hastle starts don't start giving out and getting offended and on your high horse when you are the only person that was able to avoid it in the first place.

The problem with common sense is its not actually that common.

Vizzy

And just to add another aspect to it that I'm surprised was not mentioned yet.

Why would you advertise to every scumbag that passes you that you have a firearm ?
I don't even want to go down the sensationallist route of "they will be breaking in to the house immediately" -type stuff,and I know that we all need security to keep a firearm but do you really need these scrotes sniifing around ?
Even when I have mine in the car it will be under a towel so if you looked in the window you will just see a towel which may or may not have a firearm under it.

sniperman

Vizzy wrote: »

And just to add another aspect to it that I'm surprised was not mentioned yet.

Why would you advertise to every scumbag that passes you that you have a firearm ?
I don't even want to go down the sensationallist route of "they will be breaking in to the house immediately" -type stuff,and I know that we all need security to keep a firearm but do you really need these scrotes sniifing around ?
Even when I have mine in the car it will be under a towel so if you looked in the window you will just see a towel which may or may not have a firearm under it.

alot of lads with guns dont have cars,and if or not your firearm is in a bag/case on ones shoulder,it would be obvious to any scumbag whats in it,if one has wellies,camo on,and is leading a dog,with a longish green or what ever colour bag/case drapped over ones shoulder,i think most people would know its not ones lunch in there

One shot on kill

Cass.

With the little knowlage I have about the protocol of Garda's I cant help but get the feeling of you taking the ERU and RRU and there roles in law inforcement out of context.

My reason for feeling like this are the ERU and the RRU are very specialised units that deal mostly with serious crime and gangland crime.

The armed detectives you referre to are they apart of the wide spread armed response units set up in most county's now or are they armed undercover detectives that deal with local crime and possibly part of the drug squad nationally.

Irregardless of the guard exaggerating to the other guy on the phone if a complaint is made they have to act irregardless of common sense. And that's where the trouble starts for an innocent guy out hunting.

Although I agree with your overall view on the situation. That the best thing to so is avoid the situation altogether.

Cass

You've misunderstood my entire point. I know the difference between the different members of the Gardaí and their roles.

Whether it's the ERU, RRU (the original ones referenced above) or a regular Detective, Armed Detective, Garda or even a post man with a gun that does it on the weekends. The point is not about which one comes to the situation only that it's an exaggeration to believe they would over react in such a manner to every reported incident of a person with a gun.

The other main point is the belief that any Garda with any ounce of common sense could not differentiate between a scumbag intent on doing harm and a lad out for a hunt.

My last point, and the one that has me most annoyed, is the scare mongering being proliferated.


Anyway i'm fed up of this, and have already lost my focus once so i'll leave on this note.

Walking with an uncased gun is not illegal. Use common sense as the situation dictates.

sniperman

lads i think this thread has run its course.im saying no more on the subject.

One shot on kill

+1