To powermeter, or not to powermeter...

colm_gti

Sold my TT bike due to lack of use, with a view to buying a power meter, but now that I have the cash burning a hole in my pocket I'm once again indecisive as to whether I should or not...

Only took up cycling at the beginning of last year, and only racing 12 months in July. In that time I've gone from being a fairly mediocre A4, to being able to manage ok in A3, through a mix of getting kms in my legs, loosing weight, and learning how to ride a race, along with some fairly structured HR zone training. I don't want to say I benefited mostly from one aspect, as I know it's definitely a mix.

Now, I'm in a position to buy a power meter, even though I'm aware that I will still see benefits from getting more kms in my legs, loosing more weight and continuing to learn how to ride a smarter race. Is a power meter a worthwhile investment at this stage, or is it something I should hold off on buying until I start to plateau in a year or two. Bear in mind I'm still a student, so a powermeter would be a considerable expense at the minute...

Your opinions please...

Lumen

I don't feel special.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12928759&p=18394826

colm_gti

Lumen wrote: »

I don't feel special.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12928759&p=18394826

They didn't tell me what I wanted to hear....because I don't know what I want to hear

lennymc

I was in a similar predicament at the end of last years season. I ended up with a coach and a power meter. I found having a structured plan and using someone who understands the information coming back from the pm was way more beneficial than going out and randomly doing training sessions (which I know your not doing). I would recomend you get a coach and a power meter. you will get to the level you want much quicker than without it. You will also see where your strengths and weaknesses are, and be able to specifically work on those areas.

TinyExplosions

I'd agree with lennymc, get a coach and a power meter and you can properly structure your training.

I'd suggest finding a coach, and to begin with rent a powertap from these guys -if you find it useful you can then purchase, but you're not dropping a grand plus on the thing to find it's not useful.

morana

just buy one it will be the best investment you make!

petethedrummer

I'm a Luddite when it comes to cycling gadgets but if I was to buy one piece of electronics it would be a powermeter. I doubt I'd use it though.

Harrybelafonte

Had this conversation with Lenny and I'd agree with him, with one proviso... as he says... your coach needs to understand the figures and I would think would want to work inside that system. I asked someone to coach me this year and he's very much into the older school of doing things, which suits me as I am too. Your choice of coach may be more important that a power metre tbh. Coach alone has helped me massively this year, I still have no clue about power outputs, but goals are being met (almost) which is the important part.

Harrybelafonte

petethedrummer wrote: »

I'm a Luddite when it comes to cycling gadgets but if I was to buy one piece of electronics it would be a powermeter. I doubt I'd use it though.

I've stopped using a computer on the bike. Though I throw Strava on occasionally.

lennymc

petethedrummer wrote: »

I'm a Luddite when it comes to cycling gadgets but if I was to buy one piece of electronics it would be a powermeter. I doubt I'd use it though.

This is why I recommended a coach as well. You want someone who understands the information coming back from the ride, and unless you understand that a power meter could become a very expensive gadget thats not used fully. Someone who can look at, and plan around your goals and your current cycling profile is (IMHO) as important as having all the information that comes back from the pm. I would also recommend "Training and Racing with a power meter" by Allen and Coggan.

Chips Lovell

One thing to consider is that if you buy one and discover it isn't for you, there's a strong resale market, so you're likely not to be too much out of pocket.

Seweryn

Lumen wrote: »

I don't feel special.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12928759&p=18394826

I like that phrase :

"For anyone other than a professional cyclist, buying and using a power meter is rather like hiring an accountant to tell you you're broke."

But on the subject, I have no experience with any sort of equipment like that, so I would hire someone that does and understands all these. And then you can spend the money on the toys, if required.

Lumen

My opinion is that powermeters are an interesting means of learning more about cycling, and a useful psychological tool for high intensity training.

If they were cheap, everyone who currently uses a cycling computer would have one.

I do, however, think that the "full retard" approach to measuring everything (TSS, CTL, ATL etc) you do on a bike is a joyless dead end, since it is not possible to capture all the inputs - many of them (sleep, food, stress) have nothing to do with the force you exert on the pedals whilst cycling.

Harrybelafonte

Seweryn wrote: »

I like that phrase :

"For anyone other than a professional cyclist, buying and using a power meter is rather like hiring an accountant to tell you you're broke."

But on the subject, I have no experience with any sort of equipment like that, so I would hire someone that does and understands all these. And then you can spend the money on the toys, if required.

I don't think they're right. A power metre would be a very good way to have have clear results to study. An A4 racer trying to get to A3 could always use the figures to help work on weaknesses and see progress or lack thereof. In fact seeing clear progress as a power metre allows is the biggest benefit I can see in it. Helps confidence and eh.. power obviously. Better than trying to gauge progress by inconsistent runs up Howth trying to take weather and traffic into consideration.

Junior

Will a powermeter make you better ? No. Like any piece of equipment it alone won't just make you better, you've got to use it properly. So purchasing one isn't a question do I want a PowerMeter, it's more of a question, do I want to attempt to step up my structures and training and what I'm doing - and within that question is do I understand or comprehend what I need to do to get the best out of the equipment to step up.

Coaches are helpful, but first things first you'll need to do an FTP Test, It might be worth doing one with a local college - I know Human Performance lab in WIT do them and getting a starting point before you go lashing cash on something you might not need. Also there are a lot of experienced riders who will give you advice. Advice however is experience of what's worked for them, you may need to tweak that..

colm_gti

Now they're far better responses than I got on BR

Ok, so at the end of last season/beginning of this season, I read Joe Friels training bible, I done the LTHR estimate test thing (30 minute TT), and trained specifically with my estimated LTHR in mind, with a good structure.

I am doing a VO2max and Lactate test in Trinity this afternoon as part of a study, but will be given my results, so I'm halfway there.

My finger has been hovering over the trigger with regard to the purchase of a s/h powermeter, and I just wanted the final push with regard to making the decision, given the other option was a set of fancy wheels for racing on.

I know the famous quote "A power meter is more important than fancy racing wheels", but I also remember reading that "In the first three years you'll benefit more from getting the miles in your legs than from following a specific training program".

I'm guessing 99% of coaches you contact will require you to work with a power meter anyway?

Either way, trigger pulled!

Slo_Rida

colm_gti wrote: »

Either way, trigger pulled!

Best of luck and enjoy it. My mate has one and he's flying, I expect you'll see great benefits. Oh and you should learn to read the results yourself, they are not THAT complicated. Even if you do get a coach, you should stil understand what you're doing.

And here's a couple of questions...are there loads of coaches? And...how much does it cost? I would have thought it was expensive. I wouldn't go for it anyway cos it still comes down to doing the work yourself and I'm not exactly maxing out on that front!

FrankGrimes

I agree with all the points about the benefits of a power meter and that a structured training program is what you need to get the most out of it.

However, I often think that the benefits that a power meter provides you in real-time when out on the road are underestimated and overlooked: it’s not just about planning a workout structure or analysing a workout retrospectively. Where I have found it invaluable is on rolling terrain on long rides where I’m trying to ensure I push myself hard the whole way to build up my endurance: you come to a little bump in the road and yeh you make sure to horse it out of it going up it, but then on the little downside of it, do you really keep the hammer on, or do you look down, see 40km/h and think ‘that’s decent, I must be working hard enough?’. I was certainly a case of the latter but right since I got a PM I now pay attention to the power I’m generating on those little downward slopes as much as on the uphills…and the cumulative effect over a long ride is pretty significant. And no, a heart-rate monitor just does not achieve the same thing as by the time the HR catches up with the increased effort, the little downward slope is already over, whereas the power meter gives you real-time data. They absolutely come into their own for time-trials by the way.

I agree with Lumen’s point that a lot of the benefits are psychological and motivational and that if they were cheaper, everyone would have them, so it shouldn’t really be a question of are they good things to get (the ‘only pros should use them’ point is nonsense), it’s more a case of how much value you place on it and if you’ll actually use it in an effective way.

morana

Lumen wrote: »

My opinion is that powermeters are an interesting means of learning more about cycling, and a useful psychological tool for high intensity training.

If they were cheap, everyone who currently uses a cycling computer would have one.

I do, however, think that the "full retard" approach to measuring everything (TSS, CTL, ATL etc) you do on a bike is a joyless dead end, since it is not possible to capture all the inputs - many of them (sleep, food, stress) have nothing to do with the force you exert on the pedals whilst cycling.

I agree Lumen but I think as a tool to help you improve they are great. I used one for years and it was only when I started to live by it not necessarily TSS etc that I could predict when I was going to be successful in races.

Harrybelafonte

Slo_Rida wrote: »

Best of luck and enjoy it. My mate has one and he's flying, I expect you'll see great benefits. Oh and you should learn to read the results yourself, they are not THAT complicated. Even if you do get a coach, you should stil understand what you're doing.

And here's a couple of questions...are there loads of coaches? And...how much does it cost? I would have thought it was expensive. I wouldn't go for it anyway cos it still comes down to doing the work yourself and I'm not exactly maxing out on that front!

Hmmm... Riding a bike is a lot like sex. It can be a lot of fun on your own, but having someone standing over you pointing out mistakes and wasted energy, though intimidting at first eventually makes it more fun, especially when in a group racing to that... climactic finish?

It's not always about maxing out, but how you max out.

TinyExplosions

Slo_Rida wrote: »

And here's a couple of questions...are there loads of coaches? And...how much does it cost? I would have thought it was expensive. I wouldn't go for it anyway cos it still comes down to doing the work yourself and I'm not exactly maxing out on that front!

There's quite a few, and the cost varies -you'll get some that will do you a 3 month plan for 150 quid, or other's that'll charge 70 or 80 a month

Inquitus

How does one go about finding a coach? My ride it like I stole it approach to training is only getting me so far, and it might be time to consider proper structured training.

12 sprocket

colm_gti wrote: »

Sold my TT bike due to lack of use, with a view to buying a power meter, but now that I have the cash burning a hole in my pocket I'm once again indecisive as to whether I should or not...

Only took up cycling at the beginning of last year, and only racing 12 months in July. In that time I've gone from being a fairly mediocre A4, to being able to manage ok in A3, through a mix of getting kms in my legs, loosing weight, and learning how to ride a race, along with some fairly structured HR zone training. I don't want to say I benefited mostly from one aspect, as I know it's definitely a mix.

Now, I'm in a position to buy a power meter, even though I'm aware that I will still see benefits from getting more kms in my legs, loosing more weight and continuing to learn how to ride a smarter race. Is a power meter a worthwhile investment at this stage, or is it something I should hold off on buying until I start to plateau in a year or two. Bear in mind I'm still a student, so a powermeter would be a considerable expense at the minute...

Your opinions please...

save your money until you progress some more. Learn how to train really well first of all. When research was carried out power meters were no more effective than heart rate monitors in regard to improved performance.
However power meters are very useful for testing- track performance in races and some other things..
In my experience the most important thing is the riders personality as to whether a power meter is going to be a positive thing for them or not.. some riders love them and benefit from them others find them stressful to use and are inclined to overtrain with them.

lennymc

12 sprocket wrote: »

some riders love them and benefit from them others find them stressful to use and are inclined to overtrain with them.

which is where a good coach comes in. Power meters can be useful in identifying overtraining (according to experts)

Beasty

Inquitus wrote: »

How does one go about finding a coach? My ride it like I stole it approach to training is only getting me so far, and it might be time to consider proper structured training.

That's probably worthy of a separate thread

I know a few professionals who coach in their spare time. However I'm not sure that's the right route as it really depends on their experience and ability as a coach rather than rider. Overlaying stuff like PM data makes it even more of a specialism.

I think the best approach is by word of mouth. Find out who others use and what they have delivered for them. It's very much a personal thing though and your coach needs to treat you as an individual rather than adopting a one size fits all approach to their athletes.

I've no current intention of getting a coach, mainly because I don't like being told what to do! (and also because work and family commitments mean I like to retain maximum flexibilty). I will tap into the knowledge of others whenever I can though. I do use PMs - I like all the stats and and find them very useful in planning and monitoring my training and and racing (in race data for TTs is particularly useful as you can use it to assess whether you are getting your pacing right)

fat bloke

I got one and it has done the following - it has kept me interested, given me a degree of focus, and has kept me training. Definitely worth the money, and a much more worthwhile purchase than carbony wheels if you ask me.

One caveat is that I got a very good deal on mine. If I'd had to pay over a thousand euro.... I probably wouldn't have. But I'd have been missing out as a result.

Anyway, moot point such as they all are now so:

WHATCHA BUY??!

ROK ON

A power meter is nothing other than a tool for data collection. The software going with it is a tool to help analyse that data. It is nothing else.

To answer the question then ask yourself the following;
Have I used all of the data that is now available to me (HR, perceived effort, peer analysis, race results etc)
Am I disciplined enough to act on the basis of the existing data?
Is the existing data reliable, is it volatile.

If the answer to the first two is no, then buy bling not a pm and develope some discipline. If the answer to the first two is yes and the answer to the third is no then it would seem to be a reasonable investment.

All other answers produce a result somewhere in between.

Morrisseeee

lennymc wrote: »

which is where a good coach comes in. Power meters can be useful in identifying overtraining (according to experts)

How important is identifying overtraining ?
ie. you have written down the 5 main reasons to get a coach/pm, how far up the list does 'to help me identify overtraining' go ?

ktz84

morana wrote: »

I agree Lumen but I think as a tool to help you improve they are great. I used one for years and it was only when I started to live by it not necessarily TSS etc that I could predict when I was going to be successful in races.

If you aren't using the PMC to predict your success in races then what are using?

ktz84

Very useful devices that provide valuable realtime feedback anywhere you use it and also help calibrate perceived effort for those times when you don't have it. Off the bike the insight they can given into your rides, whether it be for training or racing, is immense.

What are my real strengths and weaknesses?
What are the real demands of my priority races and therefore are those weaknesses a limiter in my performance or should I focus on enhancing my strengths as they are what really helps decides the results?
Is my training load too great or too conservative?
Do I really need that break that I had scheduled for next week 3 weeks ago?
Why wasn't I able to bridge that race winning gap - did I use up all my supra threshold efforts on silly attacks or sitting too long at the front driving the front of the group?
And on and on and on?

Yes the PMC doesn't take into consideration all the factors that can affect a cyclists ability on any given day however I've found that it does a pretty good job of modelling where my training is at and where I'm at. Much better than anything that I could ever have done before with any other system. So whilst it's not perfect it is a damn site more insightful than the blind guesswork of the past

It does take time and commitment to get beyond the FTP based training ride phase and start to gain real insight to everything else that a PM can help throw focus on. Whether you can make use of it really is down to 1) the type of rider that you are ie can you cope with structure and 2) putting into practice the feedback you get from it. If you can cope with 1 and can't be bothered with 2 then get a coach and if you can spend the time to make 2 effective then you and the power meter will get along great otherwise just forget the power meter.

Lumen

ktz84 wrote: »

If you aren't using the PMC to predict your success in races then what are using?

A die with six blank faces.

ktz84

Lumen wrote: »

A die with six blank faces.

At least it tells you what you wanted to hear

fran83

Inquitus wrote: »

How does one go about finding a coach? My ride it like I stole it approach to training is only getting me so far, and it might be time to consider proper structured training.

Give these guys a bell if your intrested.

http://seeng.ie

They suit your program to your needs and working hours.

They also provide testing for your program

I use them and have increased my threshold by over 70w in a year.

Very professional.

DirkVoodoo

fran83 wrote: »

Give these guys a bell if your intrested.

http://seeng.ie

They suit your program to your needs and working hours.

They also provide testing for your program

I use them and have increased my threshold by over 70w in a year.

Very professional.

Are you the Fran listed? 70W is quite impressive, was that from being untrained?

fran83

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Are you the Fran listed? 70W is quite impressive, was that from being untrained?

No that was just from this time last year.

I had being tipping away training and kind of packed the bike after Donegal 3 day when I didnt get up. I had being training all wrong.

They set me up with a program form the rest of the year which I finished 8th overall, 5th in a stage in the newry 3 day and helped my team mate to win it overall. I also finished 20th in the suir vally and was in the break for most of the 2nd stage. Made good progress in short space of time.

This year I got upgraded to an A1 the firtst race of the year.

So that tells the story for itself really.

fondriest

fran83 wrote: »

No that was just from this time last year.

I had being tipping away training and kind of packed the bike after Donegal 3 day when I didnt get up. I had being training all wrong.

They set me up with a program form the rest of the year which I finished 8th overall, 5th in a stage in the newry 3 day and helped my team mate to win it overall. I also finished 20th in the suir vally and was in the break for most of the 2nd stage. Made good progress in short space of time.

This year I got upgraded to an A1 the firtst race of the year.

So that tells the story for itself really.

That's impressive , I put 25 watts on my FTP last year and was happy with that but 70 is savage going . Feck it ill have to start using both legs .

get on your bike

fondriest wrote: »

That's impressive , I put 25 watts on my FTP last year and was happy with that but 70 is savage going . Feck it ill have to start using both legs .

Interesting thread but I feel a bit of a spanner as I'm not sure exactly what a power meter is or does. Can someone Give a brief summary? Cheers

ktz84

get on your bike wrote: »

Interesting thread but I feel a bit of a spanner as I'm not sure exactly what a power meter is or does. Can someone Give a brief summary? Cheers

Simply put it tells you how much energy you are putting through the cranks. The more energy that you can transfer through the cranks the faster you go all else being equal. What you have when you finish a ride is a sec by sec log of that power throughout that whole ride. This is something you cannot get without a power meter. Power is what drives your bike forward therefore it is a fundamental part of how you perform (along with tactics).

get on your bike

ktz84 wrote: »

Simply put it tells you how much energy you are putting through the cranks. The more energy that you can transfer through the cranks the faster you go all else being equal. What you have when you finish a ride is a sec by sec log of that power throughout that whole ride. This is something you cannot get without a power meter. Power is what drives your bike forward therefore it is a fundamental part of how you perform (along with tactics).

Cheers for that. Obviously allot of analysing required after a spin

ktz84

get on your bike wrote: »

Cheers for that. Obviously allot of analysing required after a spin

Yeah otherwise not much point in having it or you get a coach to do it for you

get on your bike

ktz84 wrote: »

Yeah otherwise not much point in having it or you get a coach to do it for you

See the benefit of a coach now for sure

lennymc

Morrisseeee wrote: »

How important is identifying overtraining ?
ie. you have written down the 5 main reasons to get a coach/pm, how far up the list does 'to help me identify overtraining' go ?

sorry, Im not sure I understand the question.

colm_gti

So I done an FTP test in Trinity yesterday afternoon, threw in the towel when it ramped up to 420W, just couldn't maintain a cadence of 85-90 anymore. In hindsight I should have just ground it out at whatever cadence I could manage and they could have omitted it from the results if they wanted, ah well, c'est la vie, I'll know for next time!

Anyway, got a good deal on a power2max power meter, picked it up yesterday and have it on the bike already...though I'm not sure I'll keep the q-rings on it yet...



Have ordered the training and racing with a power meter book, and I work in science so have a decent background in numbers and statistical analysis, so I'll see how I get on with it for the rest of this season, and decide then whether I want to go down the route of working with a coach or not.

joey100

So I done an FTP test in Trinity yesterday afternoon, threw in the towel when it ramped up to 420W, just couldn't maintain a cadence of 85-90 anymore. In hindsight I should have just ground it out at whatever cadence I could manage and they could have omitted it from the results if they wanted, ah well, c'est la vie, I'll know for next time!

Just wondering what type of FTP test you done? Was it the 5 min and then 20 min, 2 X 8 min or full hour?

colm_gti

joey100 wrote: »

Just wondering what type of FTP test you done? Was it the 5 min and then 20 min, 2 X 8 min or full hour?

Started at 120W and ramped up by 30W every 3 minutes, maintaining a cadence of 85-90, until I couldn't maintain it anymore...

joey100

I'm no expert on FTP tests but I thought the thinking behind them was to see what the max power you can hold for one hour is. I've done the 2 X 8 min ones, you try to keep the power consistent for the full 8 mins then a break and another 8 mins, uses a formula then to work out what your hour max is. The 5 min and 20 min one is bit different, The 5 min pretty all out, short break and then 20 mins at as high as you can hold seems to be the more popular one. Never done one like the one you done and not sure of the thinking behind it as an FTP test but like I said I'm no expert!

DirkVoodoo

joey100 wrote: »

I'm no expert on FTP tests but I thought the thinking behind them was to see what the max power you can hold for one hour is. I've done the 2 X 8 min ones, you try to keep the power consistent for the full 8 mins then a break and another 8 mins, uses a formula then to work out what your hour max is. The 5 min and 20 min one is bit different, The 5 min pretty all out, short break and then 20 mins at as high as you can hold seems to be the more popular one. Never done one like the one you done and not sure of the thinking behind it as an FTP test but like I said I'm no expert!

A ramp test is done with blood lactate measurements, they find the point where your body starts to accumulate more lactic acid than it can dissipate.

That's the threshold in functional threshold power.

It's a bit more precise.

dedocdude

fran83 wrote: »

No that was just from this time last year.

I had being tipping away training and kind of packed the bike after Donegal 3 day when I didnt get up. I had being training all wrong.

They set me up with a program form the rest of the year which I finished 8th overall, 5th in a stage in the newry 3 day and helped my team mate to win it overall. I also finished 20th in the suir vally and was in the break for most of the 2nd stage. Made good progress in short space of time.

This year I got upgraded to an A1 the firtst race of the year.

So that tells the story for itself really.

v. impressive gains, well done to you sir!

colm_gti

Maybe the one I done isn't a FTP test? I don't know what it's called, they were calling it a max test in the lab if that makes any sense...

joey100

Thanks Dirk, bit more scientific than the ones I have done alright.

colm_gti

Felt like a bit of a pin cushion after it, with all the pre-test and mid-test blood collection...