Where do I go from here?

blueturnip

Having read quite a few of the threads on this forum (which have given me loads of clues and places to go), I am hoping one of ye can help me!

So long story short, I have decided to help my Mam out researching her family history. (Yes I am new to this).

I have already hit a stumbling block on one side of the family history. Basically for her g-grandfather, all we can find is his marriage certificate. Well and his death, but I have only just ordered the cert.

He appears in both the 1901 and 1911 Irish Census. Here he lists his birth place as Dublin. He was a member of the British Army also, and on these documents he lists his birth place as London. (!!). He did sign up for the army in Dublin, but I cannot find any birth record for him in either Dublin or London (or anywhere for that matter).

We *think* we know his fathers name, but nothing on his mother or any siblings. Even using his father in the searches brings nothing, neither does searching for his father.

I can find a bit of information on his wife and their children, but he just seems to have appeared out of nowhere! From the children’s birth records and his army record, I think that in both the 1881 and 1891 census’ they were in Ireland. And this would have either been in Buttevant or the Curragh. I only found mention of Buttevant today so maybe I should start looking there?

Do I have a problem in that I don’t have enough information to go anywhere?

L1011

Is there no father's name given on the marriage cert, or is it a church cert?

blueturnip

Sorry yes there is, but it's John, so I guess it could be Johnathan or any variation of.

We have a rough idea of when he was born, so I tried searching for the father's death between the DOB and the Marriage date (he is marked as deceased), but no hits.

Alicat

Where's the earliest location you have him confirmed at? Was the Army before the 1901 census?

If you want to share more specific details, I'm sure a few people here will try to help

blueturnip

Alicat wrote: »

Where's the earliest location you have him confirmed at? Was the Army before the 1901 census?

If you want to share more specific details, I'm sure a few people here will try to help

That would be fantastic!

The earliest date I have anything on him is his army record. This was 1867 and he states he is 23. So this puts his birth at around 1844. He signed up in Dublin. But on this form he states he was born in Islington.

The next date I have confirmed is the marriage certificate in Plymouth in 1874. I was going to go down the route of the witnesses, but one was the wife's brother and I cannot clearly make out the name of the other witness.

His name is Peter Charleton (with the e), but I have tried different variations such as Carleton, Charlton, Charleston.

Just to note: One of the cousins did have a company try to find some more information, but they couldn't either. Although this was in about 1991, so a bit before the wonders of the interweb!

Any help, pointers, directions will be very much appreciated!

shanew

what's shown as occupation for Peter's father on the marriage cert ?

blueturnip

shanew wrote: »

what's shown as occupation for Peter's father on the marriage cert ?

John Charleton - deceased - Carpenter.

shanew

for reference Peter gives his place of birth on both census returns as 'Co. Dublin', so likely outside the city.

Wife Margaret Warren(?) born Devonshire, three of their four children are shown on the Irish census returns, two girls born Hampshire and Staffordshire and a son born Co Tipperary.

blueturnip

shanew wrote: »

for reference Peter gives his place of birth on both census returns as 'Co. Dublin', so likely outside the city.

Wife Margaret Warren(?) born Devonshire, three of their four children are shown on the Irish census returns, two girls born Hampshire and Staffordshire and a son born Co Tipperary.

Hi Shanew,

Yes that's them alright. One of the girls married in 1908 and then went to (back?) to England, but no children.

One brother and one girls didn't marry (One going to England and one staying in Ireland).

The final brother did marry and had two children, one of which is my g-grandmother.

Do you think I should ignore what was written on the Army stuff? Would there have been a reason not to state the correct birth place?

Thanks

blueturnip

Oh! One of the sons is in the 1911 census, but nowhere to be found in the 1901 one!

I hope this doesn't prove I come from a family of oddballs!

shanew

what exactly does the army record say - did you find it the Ancestry website ?

going the other way for a minute - here's some later details of him, with an interesting address :

Name : Peter Charleton
Event Type : Death
Quarter and Year : Jul - Sep 1918
Registration District : Naas
Age : 74 (est. year of birth 1844)
Volume : 2 / Page : 604

Will calendar entry - Will of Peter Charleton, Sergt., 4th King's Own Regt.,
late of Charleton Ave., Newbridge, Co. Kildare & formerly of Buttevant,
granted 5th Nov 1918, executrix Margaret Charleton the widow.

shanew

there are a few John Charleton deaths on the BMD Index between the start of civil records and 1874 in Ireland. None in Dublin city or County, and most too young to be Peter's father..

Only ones that seem likely by age are one in Sligo district, age 92 in 1872, and two in Carrick on Shannon district in their 60s in 1803, and 1804

see : J. Charleton Death

Which could mean he died before 1864, or maybe there was a move to Islington at some stage ?

blueturnip

shanew wrote: »

what exactly does the army record say - did you find it the Ancestry website ?

going the other way for a minute - here's some later details of him, with an interesting address :

Name : Peter Charleton
Event Type : Death
Quarter and Year : Jul - Sep 1918
Registration District : Naas
Age : 74 (est. year of birth 1844)
Volume : 2 / Page : 604

Will calendar entry - Will of Peter Charleton, Sergt., 4th King's Own Regt.,
late of Charleton Ave., Newbridge, Co. Kildare & formerly of Buttevant,
granted 5th Nov 1918, executrix Margaret Charleton the widow.

No the records are actual copies that the company hired by the cousin previously unearthed. It is his sign up (enrollment?) document. There are a couple of others, but they are medical ones and his service history. Let me root it out and I'll see exactly what it says. Although I did find another copy on findmypast. Couldn't see them on Ancestry, obviously not looking in the right place!

With regards to the other way, well done on the 'own' - I couldn't read that on the original! This is where I found the mention of Buttevant, I had no record of this at all until I saw the Will Calendar. I have ordered a copy of his death certificate, but that only went in the post today.

Since posting last night, I did find he was also a Town Commissioner in Newbridge. And we do know that he was a photographer and that he had a couple of places (His son followed in his steps).

I had made some other inquiries elsewhere, and it looks like he had a shop in the Curragh until 1908 (not sure if was an official army photographer or not, but there seem to be quite a few army photos by him), then moved to Newbridge itself.

blueturnip

So the Army form (Attestation) says:

Dated 11/09/1867

Corps: 16th Regiment of foot

Joined at (can't read this)

Birth details:
Born in the Parish of Islington near the town of London in the County of Middlesex.
Age: 23 years

Then a bunch of Y/N questions (let me know if these are important)

Then at the bottom, the declaration:

PC made the declaration and oath in Dublin on the 05/09/1867.

pinkypinky

The yes no questions - what does he say for the one about militias? Do you want to scan the image of the part you can't read. Usually a few heads together can work it out.

blueturnip

pinkypinky wrote: »

The yes no questions - what does he say for the one about militias? Do you want to scan the image of the part you can't read. Usually a few heads together can work it out.

He has basically written No to all the questions! Did you mean the one 'Have you ever served in the Militia'? He answered No to this also.

I think I have just figured out that he has put his trade as a Servant.

I am attaching two images (I hope!). One has a location that looks to me like '......chester'.

The next one is a scrawl all over this form.
I can read as far as 'Gave notice of his '....' to continue in the service beyond 21 years '.....' '....' to the '...........'

I am stuck after that, and am not totally sure what I have got is right. I can't figure out what it could be saying either.

shanew

joined at 'Colchester'

shanew

take notice of his desire to continue in the
service beyond 21 years(?) thereby consents
to the application therin of the full pro-
visions of Part II ... Act
Liet. Col.
Comdg. 4(?) King's Own, ... Regt...

blueturnip

shanew wrote: »

joined at 'Colchester'

Ah very good! I was seeing Ch... And I was pretty sure Colchester wasn't spelt like that!

Thanks!

P. Breathnach

shanew wrote: »

take notice of his desire to continue in the
service beyond 21 years(?) thereby consents
to the application therin of the full pro-
visions of Part II ... Act
Liet. Col.
Comdg. 4(?) King's Own, ... Regt...

My take:
Take notice of his desire to continue in the
service beyond 21 years & thereby consents
to the application to him of the full pro-
visions of Part II Army Act
Liet. Col.
Comdg. (?) King's Own R. L(?) Regt

It looks as if he signed as "P. Charleton Sergt"

blueturnip

Thanks guys. Great spot on the name in the scrawl! Didn't see that at all.

I may have found a birth date... I found a reference to a 'Civil service evidence of age Transcription' and it appears to have a date of the 12th May 1843.

Does anyone know what this form is? Or why you would have one?

blueturnip

shanew wrote: »

there are a few John Charleton deaths.....

Sorry shanew, I didn't see this post yesterday.

That Sligo one certainly fits dates-wise.

Yes I wonder was there a move? A lot of the family seems to have gone back and forth to England at least a couple of times.

Thanks for this, I will have a look at this.

CeannRua

There's a superscript date on line 2: 6 August 1888

I think the commanding officer is Charles Leggett and the regiment is 4th King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment. Matching record: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details/AssetMain?iaid=C13292171

The signature at the right is C.[H?] Ellice, A.G. [Adjutant General]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ellice

P. Breathnach

CeannRua wrote: »

There's a superscript date on line 2: 6 August 1888

I think the commanding officer is Charles Leggett and the regiment is 4th King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment. Matching record: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details/AssetMain?iaid=C13292171

The signature at the right is C.[H?] Ellice, A.G. [Adjutant General]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ellice

And I thought I had done well!

Pauly

Hi blueturnip!

I have some information and photographs on the Charletons, Newbridge.
I have sent you a PM.

Paul.