Wicklow County Council prosecution a farce?

feargale

Two firemen died fighting a fire. Wicklow County Council, charged with breaches of the Health and Safety Laws, have pleaded guilty. The court will, in due course, impose sentence. The only penalty which the court can impose is a monetary one. My question relates to prosecutions against public bodies in general. Any fine imposed in these cases is ultimately paid by you, me and every other taxpayer, including the victims and/or their families. Is this not a farce? Is it simply expensive window dressing, to show the public that something is being done? In other countries individuals are usually prosecuted in these cases. Why not do that here, or let the damn thing lie if there is insufficient evidence to do so?

mikom

Was the magical "systems failure" phrase mentioned?

My name is URL

It's a silly argument. The taxpayer foots the bill whatever happens. If they go to jail it'd cost a hell of a lot more.

And we shouldn't 'just let it lie' because we don't want to pay for justice. If they're answerable or responsible then they should be held to account.

bscm

Tbh I'd rather Wicklow County Council be forced to fix the roads in the county as punishment. Monetary costs would be involved, but at least those of us living in the county wouldn't be breaking the chassis every time we venture off the N11

MadsL

feargale wrote: »

Two firemen died fighting a fire. Wicklow County Council, charged with breaches of the Health and Safety Laws, have pleaded guilty. The court will, in due course, impose sentence. The only penalty which the court can impose is a monetary one. My question relates to prosecutions against public bodies in general. Any fine imposed in these cases is ultimately paid by you, me and every other taxpayer, including the victims. Is this not a farce? Is it simply expensive window dressing, to show the public that something is being done? In other countries individuals are usually prosecuted in these cases. Why not do that here, or let the damn thing lie if there is insufficient evidence to do so?

The law has changed - individual managers can now be charged, even do prison time. I don't know why prison sentences were not handed out.

Here's some examples.

Two 18 month suspended prison sentences were handed down to Mr Patrick Rooney, a roofing contractor today (Friday 29th June) by Judge Martin Nolan at the Criminal Courts, Parkgate Street, Dublin. Mr Rooney was before the Courts after an accident where two of his employees were seriously injured after falling through an 8 metre high roof. The workplace accident took place at Sunnymeade, the Ward, Co. Dublin on 17th July 2007.

http://hsa.ie/eng/News_and_Events/Press_Releases_/Press_Releases_2012/Roofing_Contractor_given_suspended_sentences_after_two_employees_seriously_injured_in_fall.html

Brian Molloy, director of Kildownet Utilities Ltd, received a two-year suspended prison sentence, in Dublin Circuit Criminal Court on November 23rd 2006, having being found guilty of a charge under:
Section 13 of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997
This trial arose following a fatal accident to an employee of Kildownet Utilities Ltd. It occurred at Diamond Valley apartment development at Dargle Road, Bray, Co Wicklow on February 19th 2003. A truck-mounted, 30-metre concrete pump, owned and operated by Kildownet Utilities, was set up and used to pump concrete into a basement area. The employee was standing at the end of the pump, placing concrete, when a section of it came into contact with one of the sets of 10,000-volt overhead power lines which crossed the site.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Corporate/Annual_Report_2006.pdf

MadsL

bscm wrote: »

Tbh I'd rather Wicklow County Council be forced to fix the roads in the county as punishment. Monetary costs would be involved, but at least those of us living in the county wouldn't be breaking the chassis every time we venture off the N11

Ah roads. More important than preventing further losses of firefighters' lives, nice to see where the priorities lie.

bscm

MadsL wrote: »

Ah roads. More important than preventing further losses of firefighters' lives, nice to see where the priorities lie.

I'm being realistic. I know many of the family members personally of those two men and I would love to see justice imposed on those specifically responsible, but I also know that all the CC will get is a hefty fine. Might as well see the money put to good use within the county than have it burned on legal fees and put into some other fat cat's pocket.

feargale

My name is URL wrote: »

It's a silly argument. The taxpayer foots the bill whatever happens. If they go to jail it'd cost a hell of a lot more.

And we shouldn't 'just let it lie' because we don't want to pay for justice. If they're answerable or responsible then they should be held to account.

My point is that too often individuals are not held to account here, too many people and too much carry on gets hidden behind the corporate veil. What justice is there for victims and families in the merry go round that effectively says that society is guilty and society should pay? There is an illusion of justice. I'm not saying that every guilty individual should go to jail, but that should be the bottom line, I don't understand your point about the cost of prisons, unless you are saying that they should be abolished.

concur4u?

one chara

kneemos

feargale wrote: »

Two firemen died fighting a fire. Wicklow County Council, charged with breaches of the Health and Safety Laws, have pleaded guilty. The court will, in due course, impose sentence. The only penalty which the court can impose is a monetary one. My question relates to prosecutions against public bodies in general. Any fine imposed in these cases is ultimately paid by you, me and every other taxpayer, including the victims and/or their families. Is this not a farce? Is it simply expensive window dressing, to show the public that something is being done? In other countries individuals are usually prosecuted in these cases. Why not do that here, or let the damn thing lie if there is insufficient evidence to do so?

Don't know how a member of WCC could be directly responsable for a bad decision on the ground.

policarp

How can a County Council be fined, without those people in the same county not being stuck with the bill?
Farce. . .

concur4u?

policarp wrote: »

How can a County Council be fined, without those people in the same county not being stuck with the bill?
Farce. . .

my qoute was and is it only akes one match and they like you know who i am

feargale

A train crashes in Spain. The first thought is to prosecute a driver.
A cruise ship goes aground in Italy. The first thought is to prosecute the ship's captain.
Here in each case a company would be prosecuted and it would be left at that.

I don't understand why Wicklow County Council are being fined though... can anyone care to elaborate? I mean, the firemen died doing their job ... I'm probably missing something.

feargale

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't understand why Wicklow County Council are being fined though... can anyone care to elaborate? I mean, the firemen died doing their job ... I'm probably missing something.

The point of this thread is not whether Wicklow County Council are guilty, or should have been convicted. The point is that we constantly engage in the cop-out of prosecuting corporations, and almost never prosecute individuals.

Cookie_Monster

they should make them pay the 10m bond for Greystones harbour over in fines. WCC have already conclusively proven they aren't going to call it in, someone may as well get use out of it.

steddyeddy

I dont get how the county council are responsible after what came out in court.

randomchild

They were not held responsible for the death of the fire fighters, but for breaches of Health and Safety law surrounding the running of the fire service at the time.

With regards to why they are being fined, I suppose the argument would go that if the state is not held accountable to these laws then neither should private companies, although maybe a nominal fine or something should apply in this case.

If WCC were found to have caused the deaths of the fire fighters, (which they were originally charged with), then this could have lead to prosecution of individuals and made civil actions in relation to this case a lot easier to advance (to the point of being a home run), which is a perhaps another reason for the prosecution.