Racing on Public Roads

mloc123

I have a feeling this topic will crop up more and more in the coming months.
Following on from the Skerries thread earlier, which looks to be the first race to be properly affected by the new stance Fingal CoCo has taken on the use of public roads for races.

Skerries is one of the races on our 'no fly' list, the organisation of this race, however bad or good, is not to be discussed in this thread. Talk about road usage issues is permitted and how this affects the race in Skerries in particular is okay.

No discussing:

-The event organiser.
-How good/bad the event was.
-The decisions to continue with the race/bike course etc..

I do not want any threatening calls late at night, so keep your opinions on the race and organiser to yourself.

miller82

em....anyone care to explain what this is all about, totally lost

Kurt Godel

miller82 wrote: »

em....anyone care to explain what this is all about, totally lost

There's a Triathlon (that can't be discussed on Boards for legal reasons, but that's irrelevant to the issue) due to take place in an area in Fingal, bike part of which is on public roads. Fingal CoCo, in conjunction with the local guards, have deemed bike races illegal unless on fully closed roads (this, I believe, stems from an issue when a guard saw a marshall stopping traffic to let a bike race through. The marshall has no legal authority to stop traffic, etc, etc). So this particular Tri has deemed the bike part to still be going ahead, but not as a "race", ie it won't be timed or the splits form part of the results.

The issue stems from bike (and run) races held on roads that are also open to other traffic. Usually, marshalls will patrol junctions and stop/slow traffic to let the race past. This is deemed against the letter of the law by Fingal CoCo and the local gaurds. It's got big implications for tri's in Ireland if it starts a precedent. (More info on cycling forum).

miller82

aaahh okay, i see. seems bonkers as to why you would still want to do such a race

hardCopy

I'm assuming this relates to the same issue that resulted in the Fingal Sprint Tri having a shortened bike route. As I understand it, an agreement was reached with local Gardaí at the last minute and the route was shortened due to a lack of time to go through similar negotiations with Meath Gardaí.

Is this definitely a Fingal only problem at the moment?

Does anybody know how involved CI/TI are at this stage?

Oryx

CI and TI will need to sort this if it is looking like a countrywide issue. It would mean most races couldnt be held.

Beasty

CI and TI have joined forces and are lobbying government departments. I believe John Treacy is also involved

It is mainly a Fingal issue at present in terms of specific Gardaí approach, although I think it's the thin end of the wedge as an Assistant Commissioner recently wrote to all stations alerting them to what he described as a problem with cycle races not abiding by road traffic legislation

merc230ce

Beasty wrote: »

It is mainly a Fingal issue at present in terms of specific Gardaí approach

Ironically, I did a charity cycle last year which was accompanied by an off-duty, out-of-uniform motorcycle cop (stationed in Fingal) who did an absolutely stellar job of stopping traffic in three counties as we rolled through.

RacoonQueen

I did a charity cycle a couple of years ago where we had a few guys on motorcycles who were there to help out. Stopped traffic at all major junctions for us. Completely illegal. Only had the guards at the start and end of each day.

Aren't all TI races meant to be done on fully closed roads?

Ceepo

RacoonQueen wrote: »

.

Aren't all TI races meant to be on fully closed roads?

First I heard of this.

NO they don't have to be held in closed roads.

Very few Triathlons are held on closed roads.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

*Something about road tax*

Vizzy

Axl Tasty Butterfly wrote: »

*Something about road tax*

No such thing - it is motor tax.

Shedite27

Trying to stay within the bounds of what's legal on this thread, so my comment will be quite simplistic...

The "no racing" ruling had absolute zero affect on me on the bike course yesterday in Skerries. I was always able to and allowed to turn left, right, overtake, speed up or slow down whenever I wanted.

If this is what triathlons of the future will be like we have nothing to worry about. Just keep your own time on your watch and you'll be grand. The only pity is that you won't be able to accurately gauge where you finished in the field (I finished 7th yesterday but know full well if the bike was included I'd have been behind all the lads with the fancy bikes). For people not looking to win events, no difference.

Beasty

Just a bit more background on this whole issue. Fingal CoCo quoted S74 of the 1993 Roads Act in connection with the problems Swords CC have been having with their Club League

74.—(1) In this section “road race” means a prescribed class of race, time trial or speed trial on a public road involving persons, vehicles or animals.
(2) A person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race shall give at least one month's notice (or such other period of notice as may be prescribed by the Minister) in writing to the road authority and to the Superintendent of the Garda Síochána within whose district the road race is to be held.
(3) (a) A road authority may by notice in writing served on a person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race or, where the name of that person cannot be ascertained by reasonable inquiry, by notice published in one or more newspapers circulating in the area in which the road race is to be held—
(i) prohibit the holding of the road race,
(ii) prohibit the holding of the road race unless specified conditions, restrictions or requirements are complied with,
(iii) impose specified conditions, restrictions or requirements in relation to the holding of the road race which must be complied with

Basically the Council have exercised what they believe to be their right under 3(a)(i) to prohibit the holding of races.

However, to my knowledge, no "class of race" has ever been prescribed. If this is the case then contrary to Fingal CoCo's belief they are not the "permitting" authority for road races

In the case of normal cycling road races the Guards still have power to stop them, or "force" them to obey Road Traffic legislation, making this type of race completely unworkable if they seek to apply the letter of the law

However in the case of Time Trials I believe they can be conducted entirely within the Road Traffic legislation on open roads, albeit with some inconvenience - basically cyclists would be required to stop at stop signs and red lights, yield when required, avoid overtaking cyclists who are already 3 abreast etc.

hardCopy

Shedite27 wrote: »

Trying to stay within the bounds of what's legal on this thread, so my comment will be quite simplistic...

The "no racing" ruling had absolute zero affect on me on the bike course yesterday in Skerries. I was always able to and allowed to turn left, right, overtake, speed up or slow down whenever I wanted.

If this is what triathlons of the future will be like we have nothing to worry about. Just keep your own time on your watch and you'll be grand. The only pity is that you won't be able to accurately gauge where you finished in the field (I finished 7th yesterday but know full well if the bike was included I'd have been behind all the lads with the fancy bikes). For people not looking to win events, no difference.

If this becomes the norm, nobody would bother training for the bike leg, nobody would bother spending thousands on TT bikes either unless they were racing abroad or racing TTs as a cyclist.

mloc123

hardCopy wrote: »

If this becomes the norm, nobody would bother training for the bike leg, nobody would bother spending thousands on TT bikes either unless they were racing abroad or racing TTs as a cyclist.

I know if I raced on Sunday I would have gamed the bike...

Hammer the swim, roll over the mount line and spend the next 2hrs cycling 40km at my leisure. Back into t2 and hammer the run on fresh legs.

hardCopy

mloc123 wrote: »

I know if I raced on Sunday I would have gamed the bike...

Hammer the swim, roll over the mount line and spend the next 2hrs cycling 40km at my leisure. Back into t2 and hammer the run on fresh legs.

And sure why not?

In Gaelforce the transition from Run to Kayak is timed out because there's usually a queue for kayaks. People sit and wait for their buddies to finish the run, have a sambo, take a toilet break, get their breath back and into the kayak.

Come out fresh for the bog run in the next leg

delboyfagan

There does seem to be a lot of confusion re marshalls and what they can do. I attended a very good seminar held by Swords CC, and attended by gardai, where we were informed that under no circumstances - absolutely no circumstances - could a marshall stop traffic.

This seems completely at odds with races I have seen lately.

p.s. I appreciate all efforts made by volunteers and marshalls during races btw and this is not a criticism of them in any way

Shedite27

Again, I'm totally talking generally, but aside from those (10% or whatever) who are racing for points or prize money, it shouldn't make any difference to the attitude. I had a watch on my wrist Sunday, and pushed myself the entire way, wouldn't see the point in doing anything else. Sure why would ya even bother doing the 40k leisurely? Just have a sit down in the town for an hour!

ThisRegard

hardCopy wrote: »

And sure why not?

In Gaelforce the transition from Run to Kayak is timed out because there's usually a queue for kayaks. People sit and wait for their buddies to finish the run, have a sambo, take a toilet break, get their breath back and into the kayak.

Come out fresh for the bog run in the next leg

Not all waves are timed out, if you're aiming to place you must start in the first wave and there's no time out then from what I can remember.

hardCopy

ThisRegard wrote: »

Not all waves are timed out, if you're aiming to place you must start in the first wave and there's no time out then from what I can remember.

True, the idea being that there are enough kayaks on hand for the first wave but subsequent waves have to rely on kayaks being towed back.

Just because you're not aiming for a prize doesn't mean the times don't matter. Plenty of people are competing against their buddies, hence the desire to take a breather.

ThisRegard

I'd be lying if I said I didn't avail of that time out myself. I busted myself one year on the first run as I'm a stronger runner than cyclist to bank some time knowing I could catch a rest queueing for the kayak. Unfortunately the queue was fairly short and someone I knew was at the top so I jumped in with them.

I think the neutralisation of the cycling stage of a tri pretty much kills it as a race though, certainly from the point of view of strong cyclists.

hardCopy

ThisRegard wrote: »

I'd be lying if I said I didn't avail of that time out myself. I busted myself one year on the first run as I'm a stronger runner than cyclist to bank some time knowing I could catch a rest queueing for the kayak. Unfortunately the queue was fairly short and someone I knew was at the top so I jumped in with them.

I think the neutralisation of the cycling stage of a tri pretty much kills it as a race though, certainly from the point of view of strong cyclists.

I was in Mullaghmore on Saturday and I would have gained about 15-20 places if the bike was neutralised. I already do too little cycling, why would I do more if there was to be no reward for it?

I can't see this type of event becoming common place. I'd say we'll just end up with less, more expensive races, in locations where Gardaí are more amenable, probably earlier in the morning (which may add to problems with water temps).

Clubs who can't get/afford road closures will have to rely on Aquathons or runs to fund-raise.

Peterx

yep,
Luck of the draw with the local Gardai will now determine if a race goes ahead. For once the rural areas may find themselves with an advantage as their quieter roads and higher likelihood of knowing the guards personally may mean their race can go ahead whereas existing events are struggling under sheer weight of new events coming up on the guards radar.
A chance now for an enterprising race organiser miles away from Dub/Cork/Rimlick to make a few bob once this road closure lark starts spreading throughout suburbia.
rant - It's the malaise of the over cautious nanny state creeping into all walks of life, the easiest thing to do is refuse permission - rant rant..