Aer Lingus Pilots Vote to Strike if Negociations Fail

Shamrock231

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/aer-lingus-vote-threatens-travel-misery-for-150000-29358883.html

Looks like they've voted to strike if the negociations fail. They haven't received an increment or pay rise since 2008, despite the company being profitable and one of the airlines with the highest profit margin in Europe.

Is this fair? Should we expect to get an increment every few years if the company is making such a large profit, or should we just accept that the wage we start out on is the same as, or close to the one we retire on? Opinions?

I'm inclined to side with the pilots on this one, they took a 12% cut 3 years ago, and despite the profit being made and the increments being part of their contract, they haven't received any in 5 years. With the profits the way they are, I think if I were in their shoes, I'd feel a little hard done by.

Micky Dolenz

It very up and down that business although I have heard they are flying right now.

Valetta

Just because they are making profits now doesn't mean they have any spare money to give pay increases.

How much losses have they absorbed in previous years?

In such a volatile business they need to have massive reserves to cater for unexpected items.... ash clouds, air traffic controller strikes, terrorist incidents, threats of pilots strikes etc.

Jester252

They sould be thankful to have a job

pebbles21

Those pilots are going around with their heads in the clouds ..

Shamrock231

Just for the craic, I'm going to go back as far as I can here with the data provided:

1998: Profit 68.7m (£)
1999: Profit 55.4m
2000: Profit 71.6m
2001: Loss 139.9m - (9/11 obviously having a major effect on air travel this year)
2002: Profit 35.3m
2003: Profit 69.2m
2004: Profit 1.2m
2005: Profit 72.4m
2006: Loss 69.9m
2007: Profit 105.3m
2008: Loss 109.9m
2009: Loss 130.1m
2010: Profit 43.0m
2011: Profit 71.2m
2012: Profit 34.1m

So that is out of the last 14 years, 4 had a loss, 10 had a profit.
There was a total loss of €449.8m.
There were total profits of €627.4m
That makes for a profit over the 14 year period of €177.6m (Taking a 1:1 ratio on the old punt to euro, really the profit was greater, but for simplicity's sake I just switched it like that.)

So hopefully all this info puts to rest the notion that Aer Lingus is/was some loss making semi-state and is/was infact a well run company.

Interesting looking back, when the losses came, they were always BIG, there wasn't a single small loss there...

Anyways, all above info can be found on the Aer Lingus Investor Relations section of their website here http://corporate.aerlingus.com/investorrelations/ if anyone wants to look it up for themselves...

So from that it looks to me like overall they're pretty profitable. To me it seems fair to get a rise of 1-2% each year, between inflation, and the added experience you bring, particularly when they're one of the airlines with the highest profit margin in Europe...

Total cost to the company would be 7.5 million euros if they paid out all the increments to the 500 pilots.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

I hope they do strike, Ryanair will carry their passengers.
Aer Lingus employees are like spoilt brats.

Valetta

There is a market rate for pilots and airlines around the world are always recruiting.

Aer Lingus pilots are free to leave but I don't see many flooding out the door.

Maybe they're just greedy.

Shamrock231

Valetta wrote: »

There is a market rate for pilots and airlines around the world are always recruiting.

Aer Lingus pilots are free to leave but I don't see many flooding out the door.

Maybe they're just greedy.

They are flooding out the doors, that's one issue they're facing right now, there's a severe lack of pilots in Aer Lingus and as a result they're having to charter in some aircraft to operate some flights as the remaining pilots have all fast approached their legal duty limits.

Sergeant

Shamrock231 wrote: »

Just for the craic, I'm going to go back as far as I can here with the data provided:

1998: Profit 68.7m (£)
1999: Profit 55.4m
2000: Profit 71.6m
2001: Loss 139.9m - (9/11 obviously having a major effect on air travel this year)
2002: Profit 35.3m
2003: Profit 69.2m
2004: Profit 1.2m
2005: Profit 72.4m
2006: Loss 69.9m
2007: Profit 105.3m
2008: Loss 109.9m
2009: Loss 130.1m
2010: Profit 43.0m
2011: Profit 71.2m
2012: Profit 34.1m

So that is out of the last 14 years, 4 had a loss, 10 had a profit.
There was a total loss of €449.8m.
There were total profits of €627.4m
That makes for a profit over the 14 year period of €177.6m (Taking a 1:1 ratio on the old punt to euro, really the profit was greater, but for simplicity's sake I just switched it like that.)

So hopefully all this info puts to rest the notion that Aer Lingus is/was some loss making semi-state and is/was infact a well run company.

Interesting looking back, when the losses came, they were always BIG, there wasn't a single small loss there...

Anyways, all above info can be found on the Aer Lingus Investor Relations section of their website here http://corporate.aerlingus.com/investorrelations/ if anyone wants to look it up for themselves...

So from that it looks to me like overall they're pretty profitable. To me it seems fair to get a rise of 1-2% each year, between inflation, and the added experience you bring, particularly when they're one of the airlines with the highest profit margin in Europe...

Total cost to the company would be 7.5 million euros if they paid out all the increments to the 500 pilots.

Doesn't take account of the utter clusterfúck of a pension fund that Mueller and his board have to try and deal with. It's a testament to his skills and leadership attributes that AerLingus manages to remain competitive despite the power of the unions in there.

Banjo String

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It very up and down that business although I have heard they are flying right now.

That flew right over the OP's head.

Shamrock231

SamHall wrote: »

That flew right over the OP's head.

No, I got it alright... :D

*I see what you did there.*

Shamrock231

Can we get back to my main question though, if the company you're working for is consistently making a profit and is one of the most profitable companies in that field, should you get an increment, or should you just sit there and be happy to have a job?

Valetta

In the current climate, sit there and be happy in the knowledge that you are contributing to the ongoing security of the company and your job, rather than jeopardising the jobs of all the other employees who are not threatening strike.

Greedy.

Shamrock231

Shamrock231 wrote: »

Can we get back to my main question though, if the company you're working for is consistently making a profit and is one of the most profitable companies in that field, should you get an increment, or should you just sit there and be happy to have a job?

If you want an increment and think you've done well enough to deserve one, then go ask for one
If you want automatic profit distributions, buy shares

Micky Dolenz

SamHall wrote: »

That flew right over the OP's head.

In fairness I really need to start working on my puns, that one was very plane.

El Guapo!

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

In fairness I really need to start working on my puns, that one was very plane.

I was going to plan some puns for this thread but I think I'll just wing it.
With a bit of luck they might take off.

YFlyer

Can they not use auto pilot?

Mena

These guys fly me around at least 4 times every month. Pay em what they want I say!

Alicano

OP: Nobody company wide has received an increment since 2008. Was supposed to be lifted this year but pay freeze was extended. Not a wisper of anybody striking except you guys. Care to explain that?

Shamrock231

Alicano wrote: »

OP: Nobody company wide has received an increment since 2008. Was supposed to be lifted this year but pay freeze was extended. Not a wisper of anybody striking except you guys. Care to explain that?

I'm not a pilot, so no, I don't care to explain that, sorry if you were under the impression I was.

As I understand it though, other workers are getting a 120m euro pay in to their pension scheme in return for a pay freeze to 2017? Pilots have a seperate defined contribution scheme and won't be receiving any lump sum towards it so in return are looking for a return to paying increments, if I understand the situation correctly?

kc90

Valetta wrote: »

There is a market rate for pilots and airlines around the world are always recruiting.

Aer Lingus pilots are free to leave but I don't see many flooding out the door.

Maybe they're just greedy.

You don't know the market very well. Graduates still find it extremely difficult to find employment. The only jobs right now are through cadetships or for senior captains.

lertsnim

Not in 2 weeks I hope.

SEPT 23 1989

Thank christ for Mick O' Leary and his marvelous flying machines

Pilotdude5

There is sweet **** all jobs going for pilots. Unless you are willing to pay thousands to the company after your training to secure your position.

EDIT: And anyone who pays for a job is an asshole.

Lando Griffin

Maybe now people will not give them a round of applause when the plane lands once they see them as they really are.

Valetta

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

EDIT: And anyone who pays for a job is an asshole.

You'll go far.

Freddy Smelly

Old and grey wrote: »

I hope they do strike, Ryanair will carry their passengers.
Aer Lingus employees are like spoilt brats.

noooooo i am flying with aer lingus in august for my holliers :mad:

Pilotdude5

Valetta wrote: »

You'll go far.

No I won't because I have no money.

Fortunately Valetta this isn't the Aviation & Aircraft forum so most people in After Hours would consider Doctors and Med Grads who buy jobs ahead of their classmates as assholes.

Insert all professions as appropriate to you After Hours readers.

TheSB

The unions at Aer Lingus are total retards. This is the crowd who recommended the pilots to invents €1,000's of their own money into the company to stay off a takeover by Ryanair. What happens next?? The share prices collapsed!!

miss no stars

TheSB wrote: »

What happens next?? The share prices collapsed!!

But their jobs were still there, as was the intention.

Specialun

Jester252 wrote: »

They sould be thankful to have a job

I hate when people say that. Are you actually serious or trolling?

kc90

TheSB wrote: »

The unions at Aer Lingus are total retards. This is the crowd who recommended the pilots to invents €1,000's of their own money into the company to stay off a takeover by Ryanair. What happens next?? The share prices collapsed!!

It's not a terrible idea. Ryanair is bad news as an employer, and the purpose of the union is to look out for employees. Anything that avoids Ryanair taking a majority is a good option.

TheSB

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

There is sweet **** all jobs going for pilots. Unless you are willing to pay thousands to the company after your training to secure your position.

EDIT: And anyone who pays for a job is an asshole.

What do you mean?? I would have no sympathy for training pilots who have to pay for their ratings etc. out of their own pockets. However, it would be very dangerous if we got to a situation like in America where new pilots are paid a pittance. Remember the case of the Colgan Air pilot who was paid something like $16,000, couldn't afford to sleep at a hotel and was so tired she went on to crash the plane and kill all the passengers.

Jester252

Specialun wrote: »

I hate when people say that. Are you actually serious or trolling?

Imagine the pay cut they would have to take if they had no job. Maybe people should realise this before they demand more money.

Shamrock231

Jester252 wrote: »

Imagine the pay cut they would have to take if they had no job. Maybe people should realise this before they demand more money.

But the thing is that they're jobs, as jobs go, are relatively secure, the airline is making large profits and is one of the airlines with the largest profit margins in Europe. That's what makes me wonder about why people don't think now is a good time to ask for your increments back, which they were promised when they agreed to halt all increments and no more pay rises back in 2008 and then to take a 12% pay cut in 2011. This was agreed back then, the company is profitable, but they're denying them the increment.

If it wasn't profitable I'd be singing from a totally different hymn sheet, it'd be mad, selfish and reckless to ask for a pay rise if they were still making a loss, but they're not, they're highly profitable.

take everything

Turbulent times in Aer Lingus.
These guys are in for some land. Need to be brought back down to earth if you ask me. I'm sure there's plenty waiting in the wings who'll do the job. Fokkers, hijacking a bank holiday like that.

Also, this is serious so less of the puns lads.

Kevcol

If they go on strike at the start of August I may actually cry!