change of system?

1chippy

im trying to organise my set up a bit and could do with a bit of help. im currently running sucklers with calves, bullocks that i hope to finish next winter and a batch of heifers that im just not sure what im going to do with. i was originally going to bull them all for autumn calvers, then going to bull some but now just dont know.I also have a batch of bucket fed calves. I farm 90 acres of good ground and can easily carry 2lu or a bit more. Bearing in mind we always had sucklers here and i really dont want to go away from them completly, but i would like to get things a bit more organised. Has anyone any input on what type they reckon would work best. i.e. dairy bull to beef, sucklers sell as weanlings. sucklers sell bulls finish heifers, sucklers finish all or just go with store to finish. how would you make the figures work, bearing in mind this is part time.

1chippy

well no takers? im open to options. i thought bob would have at least told me to sell up. would 45 cows finishing all the heifers and selling bulls as weanlings work.

iverjohnston

1chippy wrote: »

well no takers? im open to options. i thought bob would have at least told me to sell up. would 45 cows finishing all the heifers and selling bulls as weanlings work.

Bob probably down at The road putting up a sign! But what would he do with himself them!

Muckit

I think you are at an excellent exercise revaluating your enterprise. We should all be at it every so often. Even if the conclusion is to keep going at what you are at, it will have been time well spent.

All I can say is whatever the conclusion turns out to be, efficiency needs to play a major role in it, especially when you are part-time. If you are doing everything 100% as it is, try and make more effective use of your time. If you can make changes to earn more mula, ensure that it can be done in much the same timeframe as present or even less.

Just my ta pence worth....

caseman

What about milking cows and giving up the day job. I'm thinking that way myself

kerryjack

A lot of lads are asking themselves that question after the year we had. If I have leaned anything this year it is to be practical and honest about how much stock my farm can take, Last year i was set up to supply more milk , i had more cows I even bought a bigger tank but it all went pair shaped last year with the wet summer we had and left me with a feed bill of over 30 k I have cut the numbers away back , it was an expensive lesson as for the suckler system ye guys have its always been a mystery to me how ye can make money with only one pay day a year. as far as changing around a sucker system for me its like moving around the deck chairs on the titanic.

1chippy

caseman wrote: »

What about milking cows and giving up the day job. I'm thinking that way myself

i currently have no inclination towards dairying, plus dont really have the finances for the parlour, roadways and all the stuff that goes along with it.The ground block would probably be a bit on the small scale with a limited potential to expand within the area.

bob charles

I have little positive to add so best say nothing.:(

Manoffeeling

How part time is the job? How well does it pay? What is your SFP like? Is the system you are in making money? Remember, the more you earn the more tax you pay. Paying tax from sucklers when your credits are used up on a job and SFP is borderline madness.

Let's do the Maths-

Part time job + sucklers = hardship

Part time job + dry stock = ideal

You know yourself, but work out what your income is, will I be pushed into higher tax bracket?

mf240

I hate sucklers.

1chippy

Manoffeeling wrote: »

How part time is the job? How well does it pay? What is your SFP like? Is the system you are in making money? Remember, the more you earn the more tax you pay. Paying tax from sucklers when your credits are used up on a job and SFP is borderline madness.

Let's do the Maths-

Part time job + sucklers = hardship

Part time job + dry stock = ideal

You know yourself, but work out what your income is, will I be pushed into higher tax bracket?

The farming is part time, i run a small business full time.The farm basicaly goes back into the farm for now anyway. sfp isnt bad but nothing special either. what sort of return is there really out there buying in and finishing? ive seen a lot of lads get caught with finishing.

hugo29

1chippy wrote: »

well no takers? im open to options. i thought bob would have at least told me to sell up. would 45 cows finishing all the heifers and selling bulls as weanlings work.

If it was me chippy I'd sell all the weanlings, try to get cows calved early and fit for sale at back end, concentrate on good quality weanlings and sell all

Manoffeeling

Finishing is always chancy. But if you buy light stores and keep them till beef, you should work out fine. Best thing is to buy middle of the road stock.

Dampintheattic

Manoffeeling wrote: »

Finishing is always chancy. But if you buy light stores and keep them till beef, you should work out fine. Best thing is to buy middle of the road stock.

I was at that for years. Buying in TB, despite the so called testing system.
I was locked up more times than not!

Went over to suckling 12 years ago. Haven't been locked up since.

Every system had its down side unfortunately.

Manoffeeling

Dampintheattic wrote: »

I was at that for years. Buying in TB, despite the so called testing system.
I was locked up more times than not!

Went over to suckling 12 years ago. Haven't been locked up since.

Every system had its down side unfortunately.

Everyone to there own. I used to keep sucklers and buy in weanlings. Buying in is lovely when you see the hardship that goes in to sucklers. To be honest, after the beet factory closed, it was only then that we really saw how much the cows were eating. You keep a lot of stock to sell 50 good cattle every year. Sucklers don't pay for the majority of lads.

Muckit

Manoffeeling wrote: »

Sucklers don't pay for the majority of lads.

Talking in general, not OP (chippy). I would agree. Buying in drystock is a lot more forgiving for the average Jo. You have to be at the top of your game in sucklers. No checking heats, hassle of bringing in for AI or extra expenditure of keeping a bull (which is grossly underestimated by many lads. A good bull is expensive to keep, a bad bull.... lets not go there), need for extra facilities like calving pens, buying in straw etc etc... Then watching at calving. Between getting them in calf and calving, your on edge 4-5months of the year.

Buying in weanlings in the winter is working OK for me. You are buying when there is a glut and they are misers on feed, what do they eat, feck all over the first winter, especially compared to sucklers. You are out in the mart when weather is feck all good for anything else anyway and things are quite. If buying bulls, you have them in the house with zero management hassles until you squeeze pre turnout. Also fit plenty in a small pen without overcrowding so good use of shed space. You've let the first lad do most of the donkey work. They motor once out early to grass. And every kilo they put on their backs is money earned, every kilo a suckler cow puts on is dead money and she's a huge liability at calving, walk into paddy powers and place a blind bet, you'd have better odds of success.

It all depends what you are into though. You have to play to your strengths and avoid things that you don't have a natural aptitude or interest in. You can't be good at everthing.

1chippy

I can make money in sucklers and breed good stock, however i do know i need to reduce the number of groups i have, i suppose its a real question of whether i would be able to run 70 cows and sell all the weanlings at the end of the year or do i try and hold either the heifers or bulls and try to finish with say just 40-50 cows.
will it be possable to carry that no of cows and keep working at the real job.

bbam

1chippy wrote: »

I can make money in sucklers and breed good stock, however i do know i need to reduce the number of groups i have, i suppose its a real question of whether i would be able to run 70 cows and sell all the weanlings at the end of the year or do i try and hold either the heifers or bulls and try to finish with say just 40-50 cows.
will it be possable to carry that no of cows and keep working at the real job.

Jebus lad that's allot of cows AND hold down a full time job... Its success would depend on the job, how close it is and how flexible they are..

There are few jobs that would allow such flexibility at crucial times like calving that number of cows..

1chippy

bbam wrote: »

Jebus lad that's allot of cows AND hold down a full time job... Its success would depend on the job, how close it is and how flexible they are..

There are few jobs that would allow such flexibility at crucial times like calving that number of cows..

the workshop is 200 metres from the yard and i would be hoping to tighten the calving spread. Most of the time i loose is on tagging, dehorning and pure rooting with the ones and twos. i'd find it far better if i could just do these in reasonable batches.

Poor Farmer in the hills

Have been evaluating what to do with the farm myself over the last while.
Done a profit monitor on sucklers for last year showing they are a waste of time can only imagine what this year will be like with cows not out untill nearly June!
Have all facilities for sucklers but land is too wet for cows in a bad year. Always produce very good calves and get "good" prices but costs are too high. When the sums are done part of the single farm payment is being spent to keep the cows.
Sheep are looking a bit better and the land can carry them.
I am going to cut back on cow numbers this year as was only being a busy fool
I find it hard to give up sucklers totally but in the cold light of day i suppose i should

delaval

Have you ever considered contract rearing dairy heifers from weaned to springing. Our guy recons its the best system he's ever been involved in and he has an off farm job.
No calving no marts no risk and a monthly income

1chippy

delaval wrote: »

Have you ever considered contract rearing dairy heifers from weaned to springing. Our guy recons its the best system he's ever been involved in and he has an off farm job.
No calving no marts no risk and a monthly income

Have they not to be parlour trained and a lot of other niches specific to dairying? or is it as simple as just rear and thrive.

delaval

1chippy wrote: »

Have they not to be parlour trained and a lot of other niches specific to dairying? or is it as simple as just rear and thrive.

There several ways to do it

Our system is calves leave at weaning. They are weighed on arrival and again at agreed intervals. All targets are pre set. We only weigh at housing, mid way through first winter and at turnout
Any weanlings below target are seperated and mealed at his cost. He is responsible for all dosing, and vet costs ie sick animal. We take to cost of vaccine, ai and freeze branding while he is responsible for work being done.
heifers return to us within a month of calving. He does no further work specific to dairying

In return we pay an agreed rate per head/day. This is paid monthly.

grazeaway

delaval wrote: »

There several ways to do it

Our system is calves leave at weaning. They are weighed on arrival and again at agreed intervals. All targets are pre set. We only weigh at housing, mid way through first winter and at turnout
Any weanlings below target are seperated and mealed at his cost. He is responsible for all dosing, and vet costs ie sick animal. We take to cost of vaccine, ai and freeze branding while he is responsible for work being done.
heifers return to us within a month of calving. He does no further work specific to dairying

In return we pay an agreed rate per head/day. This is paid monthly.

the father in law does this on the contenient. he used to have a dairy enterprise with father but when his father retired decided to change. His brother is a tillage man and they had looked at merging but with the cost of upgrading the milking machine and parlour for 2 lads in thier late 50's was too much. There were a number of dairy lads looking to expand in the area so he moved into the herifer rearing. Initially it was only local animals but now he has heifers coming from up to 50/60 miles away.

He runs three systems "bull calf", "calf to cow" and "heifer to cow". some fellas will send thier replacment heifers off farm as soon as they are weaned until they come back 2 years later, while others will send the hiefers over for the 2nd year. The bull calves are calves born to heifers that the farmer doesnt want so will pay to rear them for a few weeks before they are sold on.

pakalasa

Chippy,
I'm bit like yerself, working full-time but with a lot less sucklers. 15 cows, give or take, with heifers kept for breeding. I'm doing it all on my own though. There is help if needed, but most of the time it's done so begrudgingly, it's not worth the hassle.
I'm always trying to simplify things but it ain't easy. Having cows calving tightly is a big help, so I cull the late calvers every year. I could buy in replacements but I know from the past that about 1/3 end up no good, either poor calves, no milk, bad calvers or stone mad. I could use a bull instead of AI, but AI has worked well for me, calve quality, easy of calving, on heifers especially.
I suppose nobody knows better than yourself, but I would try and reduce the different number of groups. One thing I have noticed is it is better to calve a heifer while she is still growing. The energy she is taking in, will go towards her growing, rather than condition on her back. That way I can run the heifers with the cows and calves. It makes herding easier at least. I can let them slip back a bit then to fit in with the main herd. Even better if they calve early at 2 years and again at 3. Often though they calve at 30 months, slip a bit and calve again at an early 4 years.

Poor Farmer in the hills

Pakalasa are you making any money?

bob charles

Poor Farmer in the hills wrote: »

Pakalasa are you making any money?

the fecker is loaded from it, I have being told

dharn

I have been buying in 450 to 500 kg steers good r grades some u's and finishing them but it has been a waste of time for the last few years, heavy cattle, wet land, expesive meal, so I recon you need a very large dry farm to contemplate finishing any animal

pakalasa

bob charles wrote: »

the fecker is loaded from it, I have being told

Swimming in it!

Poor Farmer in the hills wrote: »

Pakalasa are you making any money?

Well, you know the answer to that. :P

Robson99

Muckit wrote: »

Talking in general, not OP (chippy). I would agree. Buying in drystock is a lot more forgiving for the average Jo. You have to be at the top of your game in sucklers. No checking heats, hassle of bringing in for AI or extra expenditure of keeping a bull (which is grossly underestimated by many lads. A good bull is expensive to keep, a bad bull.... lets not go there), need for extra facilities like calving pens, buying in straw etc etc... Then watching at calving. Between getting them in calf and calving, your on edge 4-5months of the year.

Buying in weanlings in the winter is working OK for me. You are buying when there is a glut and they are misers on feed, what do they eat, feck all over the first winter, especially compared to sucklers. You are out in the mart when weather is feck all good for anything else anyway and things are quite. If buying bulls, you have them in the house with zero management hassles until you squeeze pre turnout. Also fit plenty in a small pen without overcrowding so good use of shed space. You've let the first lad do most of the donkey work. They motor once out early to grass. And every kilo they put on their backs is money earned, every kilo a suckler cow puts on is dead money and she's a huge liability at calving, walk into paddy powers and place a blind bet, you'd have better odds of success.

It all depends what you are into though. You have to play to your strengths and avoid things that you don't have a natural aptitude or interest in. You can't be good at everthing.

Couldnt agree more Muckit. Pretty much the same system here.Buy in yearling heifers here in spring. Try & buy between 350 & 400kgs. All minimum R+. Straight to grass. Finished inside from Jan to March. Straight to factory. Then go again. We were at the sucklers too but are making more profit this wayor should I say losing less;)