Sean O'Brien at 12?

hype101

I understand this topic may have been mooted in a thread somewhere sometime back. At the time I thought the idea was a bit fanciful but in light of the nature of some of his performance for the Lions so far I think it at least merits discussion, particularly in an Ireland context.

First, I think his hands have improved no end. He has hit skip passes on the money, deft off-loads beyond the tackle, the straightening of the line and give to Sexton on the wrap around pass and quick and accurate hands in man and ball situations. He also just looks very comfortable in the line in possession

Secondly, he may not be Bryan Habana but he is explosively quick over 15-20 yards and 12's are not necessarily out and out gas merchants. He is like an NFL running back. I would be confident he is every bit as quick as Jamie Roberts, certainly James Downey. He could afford to lose half a stone in any event.

I just think that a Sexton O'Brien O'Driscoll axis could be a mouth watering combination for Ireland. I also don't think he is natural openside. Because he is such a good player he has adapted well to the position but what is he world class at?: Carrying ball into soft shoulders and breaking tackles. Playing 12 would facilitate this and allow him to carry in space rather than being first, second man from the ruck on static slow ball.

Finally, it would largely free him of the need to focus on the breakdown: The primary obligation of the modern openside, who in today's game, is more of a defensive player. It would also free the backlog of talented young backrowers, including natural 7s, in Leinster. 12 is also a position of weakness for Ireland I believe, despite some good emerging players. In short , I believe the Irish backline and in particular the midfield is too small with an O'Driscoll -Darcy/Marshall/Olding combo.

Differing views welcome. Please be gentle.

CIARAN_BOYLE

If it was tried 5-7 years ago then he would be playing there for Ireland, too late now for him to learn the position.

Benny Cake

Actually always thought he would have made a great hooker....

jamiedav2011

Way too late now to take one of the best 6s in Europe and put him at 12.

The Coghlan experiment could be interesting though.

He definitely has shown great hands and passing skills on this tour, a serious improvement in his game since the early years. Remember being amazed when he completed this relatively simple offload to BOD at the Aviva opening game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Ivw15Q9Ys

CatFromHue

Defensively I think he'd struggle.

Childish Donald

Think he would have been a better Hooker than a 12.

Could probably cover 12 in an emergency.

Him moving to 12 now isn't a realistic option, he turns 27 this season after all.

Buer

Benny Cake wrote: »

Actually always thought he would have made a great hooker....

Bad Brent Pope, no. No.

He actually was registered as one of the front row players, I vaguely recall, for Leinster several years ago in the HEC due to a lack of options. Luckily, he was never needed aside from throwing in at the line out a few times in his career.

I'd hate to see him taken away from the back row though where his mobility, carrying and link play is so good.

Buer

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

He definitely has shown great hands and passing skills on this tour, a serious improvement in his game since the early years. Remember being amazed when he completed this relatively simple offload to BOD at the Aviva opening game.

Remarkable to think back now to when he first came through around 2009 and he was known for his bad hands.

Benny Cake

Buer wrote: »

Bad Brent Pope, no. No.

He actually was registered as one of the front row players, I vaguely recall, for Leinster several years ago in the HEC due to a lack of options. Luckily, he was never needed aside from throwing in at the line out a few times in his career.

I'd hate to see him taken away from the back row though where his mobility, carrying and link play is so good.

Ya, in fairness the guy is world class back rower. Moving him would be lunacy.

It does, however, bring up an interesting point. I reckon we should be encouraging talented underage back rowers, who lack the size to make it at the highest level, to move to the front row.... I always recall a number 8 who played for Munchins, won a senior cup and was capped for Ireland at schools level. Never had the height for international rugby but I'm convinced had he moved to hooker at 16 he could have been class.
Every underage coach around the country puts his best forward in the back row because that's whats best for the team, however, it might not be best for the player in the long run

Quint2010

I mooted SOB for 12 on here a while ago and am still recovering from the bullet wounds. I think he'd be great there.

ormond lad

Benny Cake wrote: »

Ya, in fairness the guy is world class back rower. Moving him would be lunacy.

It does, however, bring up an interesting point. I reckon we should be encouraging talented underage back rowers, who lack the size to make it at the highest level, to move to the front row.... I always recall a number 8 who played for Munchins, won a senior cup and was capped for Ireland at schools level. Never had the height for international rugby but I'm convinced had he moved to hooker at 16 he could have been class.
Every underage coach around the country puts his best forward in the back row because that's whats best for the team, however, it might not be best for the player in the long run

It does. Ive seen it at AIL level work very well and seen plenty of back rows move to prop and hooker.
Few weeks sessions with Seamus Harty in Nenagh(article on S Harty here) and he could turn players into v decent props. Nenagh first team squad had 2 if not 3 front rows play several AIL games who only turned to front row in past 2 seasons.

We should be looking at turning backrows into props but how many will actually move up the scrum. Not many at all and if they eventually do its too late for pro rugby(if they were to have a shot at pro rugby)

FrannoFan

Actually this raises the issue of Coughlan being moved there, i think it is a mistake. He was super in the back row in school and for the 20's and should have been developed there. If you want a 6'4 centre pick Tom Daly or Tom Farrell. They have spent all their rugby playing in the backs and have an understanding of the lines required.
If it was a ploy to develop his all round game i am all for it,i think it does improve a player to mix between forwards and backs in underage but you reach a point where the move becomes near impossible to pull off.
Coughlan could well play for Leinster at 12 but to break to the next level would be unlikely whereas i think he had a chance in the backrow.
SOB could have been a super hooker, but he is a super backrow as well so it is no shocker.

Childish Donald

Hard to know with Coghlan, he is still only 20 after all. Seems to have transitioned there fairly well also, big season ahead for him.

Hagz

FrannoFan wrote: »

Actually this raises the issue of Coughlan being moved there, i think it is a mistake. He was super in the back row in school and for the 20's and should have been developed there.

I'm inclined to agree with you there. He was impressive there for the u20s and is a superbly athletic player. The depth of Leinster back-row is often talked about, but if you look at specific blindsides, there's really only Ruddock coming through. No doubt Murphy, Ryan, Gilsenan et all can do a job at 6, but will they ever be outstanding blindsides?

Tobyglen

Jesus, he'll be a ballerina next. Last week it was mooted that he could beat a very good professional boxing middleweight with 6 weeks training.

SOB is a BR, a 12 he most certainly isn't. Green tint glasses off, his offloading ability is poor in comparison to the more skilled BR players in Wales/SH. Gatland figured him out by chopping him down by the legs because he rarely offloads. Above is a nice video but he doesn't do that nowhere near enough. Even at the game today he botched a simple offload to Murray for a try. So to put him at 12 when his distribution skills are poor for a BR is simply a ridiculous idea. 12's are often playmakers.

irishbucsfan

Hagz wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree with you there. He was impressive there for the u20s and is a superbly athletic athlete. The depth of Leinster back-row is often talked about, but if you look at specific blindsides, there's really only Ruddock coming through. No doubt Murphy, Ryan, Gilsenan et all can do a job at 6, but will they ever be outstanding blindsides?

I think Ruddock will be yes. He's nearly there this season.

Hagz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think Ruddock will be yes. He's nearly there this season.

He's nearly outstanding? Jeesh, can't get on board with that. Would you have him ahead of O'Mahony for Ireland? I wouldn't. And I certainly don't consider O'Mahony to be an outstanding blindside.

irishbucsfan

Ah I think your outstanding is a little bit more outstanding than my outstanding.

I think Ruddock could be a better blindside than POM soon though. He's already has more ability in the tight and modern rugby demands that. Hes hugely powerful, echnique, great work rate. Not nearly as well rounded in terms of defensive ability or ball carrying, but thats less important if you're a 6 in a team with other back row options like we have.

Childish Donald

Ruddock? outstanding? Not quite.

He has a way to go before I'd place that moniker on him, certainly showed improvement in the second half of the season.

Ruddock's potential is Lydiate lite but first he needs to start outperforming KMCL.

Would like to see him improve his overall body position when carrying the ball and when attempting to make a tackle.

He is never going to be Stephen Ferris outstanding but he could become a very effective high level player.

trouttrout

Ruddock has always been a bit meh to me, even in his u20's days I wasn't a huge fan. Big workrate but I don't think he's ever going to be a top class six

Childish Donald

Hagz wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree with you there. He was impressive there for the u20s and is a superbly athletic player. The depth of Leinster back-row is often talked about, but if you look at specific blindsides, there's really only Ruddock coming through. No doubt Murphy, Ryan, Gilsenan et all can do a job at 6, but will they ever be outstanding blindsides?

It was an interesting call by Joe at the time, he obviously saw something in Coghlan and I assume if it wasn't working out they wouldn't be afraid to move him back.

Specific blindsides at Leinster? well their is KMCL(28) and Ruddock(22), of course SOB can cover their but he doesn't really fit the traditional blindside flanker mode.

I'd argue Ben Marshall(23) could fit that role and he was doing so until he got injured in the B&I Cup this year. Obviously some see him as a potential second row down the line but I think he can fit that need.

Other options: Dominic Ryan(23), Jack Conan(20) and Dan Leavy(19) are all either in the academy system or with the full team and I believe all three could be effective blindsides in the future for Leinster if moved/needed there.

irishbucsfan

trouttrout wrote: »

Ruddock has always been a bit meh to me, even in his u20's days I wasn't a huge fan. Big workrate but I don't think he's ever going to be a top class six

He was brilliant for Leinster at the end of this season. His breakdown work is so good, it frees up so much space. He must be a nightmare to play against for opposition back row forwards.

Will he ever be top class? No I don't think so. But I don't really see who in Ireland could be a top class 6. Maybe Henderson if he stayed there I guess. It takes a very special physical specimen to be a truly top class 6 and Ferrises don't come along every day.

thebaz

maybe he can switch with BOD , always thought h'd make a great 7

On a more serious note , is Ryan going to be a 6 or 7 , a few years ago people were saying he was going to Irish no. 7 - apart from injury constant switching sides doesnt help him , I think.

19543261

If he "moved" to 12, what would he be doing differently? Passing more. Providing he can do that to the appropriate standard, and you would assume he would understand the concept of linking with the guy outside him...

Why would he need "years" of "learning how to be a 12"? What am I missing.

It would free him up to run more, which is what most people would agree he's best at. Seeing a bit of "WHAT?! BLASPHEMY! DONT RUIN MY CONCEPT OF NUMBERS!" going on here tbh.

[Jackass]

trouttrout wrote: »

Ruddock has always been a bit meh to me, even in his u20's days I wasn't a huge fan. Big workrate but I don't think he's ever going to be a top class six

Even though he's been around for the last 3 or 4 seasons, he's still only 22.

I think along with Toner, he was the most improved player at Leinster this season. (Madigan has been superb for a while, just got to show it off a lot more this season).

In perspective, O'Mahony is 23 and O'Donnell 25.

I reckon Ruddock could become a superb player, but of course, at Leinster he hasn't been helped by having guys like O'Brien, Jennings, McLoughlin and Heaslip ahead of him and guys like Jordi Murphy & Dom Ryan coming through at the same time as him, the two Munster lads mentioned above have pretty much had a clear run into the Munster team and the big game experience that goes with it, but I used to be a bit "meh" about Ruddock but after this season he's caught my eye a lot as one to watch.

Back on topic, Sean O'Brien at 12 was never really an option, he's made for the pack and imo is too bulky and always was.

A guy like Leavy is a massive ball carrier, but has more of the proportions of a 12. Not all quick and powerful 6's would make good 12's, I think O'Brien is far better off where he is.

Now if you want to talk about switching between forwards and backs, I'm all ears for O'Driscoll extended his IRFU contract for another 6 seasons and switching to a 7..

Richard Hillman

I thought he should have been moved to centre against Italy this year in the 6N rather than sticking O'Mahony out on the wing. But that was an extremely unusual circumstance.

.ak

To be honest, the OP just proves how good an open side SOB is, his hands and link play are one of the reasons why 7 is his strongest position, not 6.

Although he's a great 6 too!

I always thought he'd make a great inside centre, but it's too late, he'd be at sea defensively. Coughlan will take another season or two to get up to speed, he's at the right stage to experiment, SOB is not.

little173

19543261 wrote: »

If he "moved" to 12, what would he be doing differently? Passing more. Providing he can do that to the appropriate standard, and you would assume he would understand the concept of linking with the guy outside him...

Why would he need "years" of "learning how to be a 12"? What am I missing.

It would free him up to run more, which is what most people would agree he's best at. Seeing a bit of "WHAT?! BLASPHEMY! DONT RUIN MY CONCEPT OF NUMBERS!" going on here tbh.

This is a difficult one because seems disrespectful to SOB who I admire massively as a player but.... he doesnt have the footwork to play at 12, often times you need to be able to spin out of tackles and make room quickly in a confined space. Also he would be caught out over 5 - 10 yards for pace esp defensively but really his S&C program for the last 8 years or so has all been geared to backrow play which is why he is very bulky now and can operate in tight situations close to the ruck where you are up against props as well who have a very low centre of gravity and have immense leg strength.

Btw I think its madness if he doesnt make the first test lineup.

desertcircus

Looking forward to seeing how the Coghlan experiment works out. SOB is too far gone as a backrower (and far too good as a backrower) to shift to 12 now, but if Schmidt thinks Coghlan can switch then I trust he can.

leftleg

.ak wrote: »

To be honest, the OP just proves how good an open side SOB is, his hands and link play are one of the reasons why 7 is his strongest position, not 6.

Although he's a great 6 too!

I always thought he'd make a great inside centre, but it's too late, he'd be at sea defensively. Coughlan will take another season or two to get up to speed, he's at the right stage to experiment, SOB is not.

Im surprised the "Bergamasco at 9 a few years ago" debacle hasn't been mentioned here before. You just cant do this kind of thing to a player at this stage in his career. No coach in there right mind would move an out and out 7 to 12 except Michael Cheika with George Smith at Stade 2 years ago, oh wait .... maybe just maybe, but not in a test match.

errlloyd

leftleg wrote: »

Im surprised the "Bergamasco at 9 a few years ago" debacle hasn't been mentioned here before. You just cant do this kind of thing to a player at this stage in his career. No coach in there right mind would move an out and out 7 to 12 except Michael Cheika with George Smith at Stade 2 years ago, oh wait .... maybe just maybe, but not in a test match.

The cheika experiment was in a cup semi right. Also, I think it worked....

leftleg

errlloyd wrote: »

The cheika experiment was in a cup semi right. Also, I think it worked....

It was in a 6 nations match against England at Twickenham and yes it did work if your an England fan. For Italy it was a disaster. He couldnt pass off his left and stuck in the rucks left right and centre instead of clearing the ball.

irishbucsfan

leftleg wrote: »

It was in a 6 nations match against England at Twickenham and yes it did work if your an England fan. For Italy it was a disaster. He couldnt pass off his left and stuck in the rucks left right and centre instead of clearing the ball.

Pretty sure he was talking about Smith at 12

trouttrout

leftleg wrote: »

It was in a 6 nations match against England at Twickenham and yes it did work if your an England fan. For Italy it was a disaster. He couldnt pass off his left and stuck in the rucks left right and centre instead of clearing the ball.

He was on about Smith moving to 12, not Bergo at 9

leftleg

im leaving now sorry everyone :D

Tobyglen

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah I think your outstanding is a little bit more outstanding than my outstanding.

I think Ruddock could be a better blindside than POM soon though. He's already has more ability in the tight and modern rugby demands that. Hes hugely powerful, echnique, great work rate. Not nearly as well rounded in terms of defensive ability or ball carrying, but thats less important if you're a 6 in a team with other back row options like we have.

So much wrong here. POM is one of the most skillful Irish players. He's a guy who's superb at the breakdown, carries well, good l/o ball and is quick. As he puts on more bulk he'll get even better.

Ruddock has a ,ot of weight on POM yet can't get near him in terms of ability. Ruddock has no gas, body shape looks wrong, no good in l/o and he hasn't a good rugby brain. He'll have a good career but if we're relying on him at international level then we're goosed.

Buer

Tobyglen wrote: »

Ruddock has a ,ot of weight on POM yet can't get near him in terms of ability. Ruddock has no gas, body shape looks wrong, no good in l/o and he hasn't a good rugby brain. He'll have a good career but if we're relying on him at international level then we're goosed.

You say so much wrong and then post things which are very wrong. Ruddock is a very useful bloke in the line out both as a good jumper and a brilliant lifter. He has an excellent rugby brain. Also little between them in weight.

I wasn't aware there was a more aesthetically pleasing body shape for a flanker either.

totallegend

Tobyglen wrote: »

So much wrong here. POM is one of the most skillful Irish players. He's a guy who's superb at the breakdown, carries well, good l/o ball and is quick. As he puts on more bulk he'll get even better.

Ruddock has a ,ot of weight on POM yet can't get near him in terms of ability. Ruddock has no gas, body shape looks wrong, no good in l/o and he hasn't a good rugby brain. He'll have a good career but if we're relying on him at international level then we're goosed.

Writing a forward off at the age of 22 is a new one on me. Seriously like?

Tox56

Tobyglen wrote: »

So much wrong here. POM is one of the most skillful Irish players. He's a guy who's superb at the breakdown, carries well, good l/o ball and is quick. As he puts on more bulk he'll get even better.

Ruddock has a ,ot of weight on POM yet can't get near him in terms of ability. Ruddock has no gas, body shape looks wrong, no good in l/o and he hasn't a good rugby brain. He'll have a good career but if we're relying on him at international level then we're goosed.

This is all very fanboy-ish but in terms of the actual criticisms, you are extremely harsh/plain wrong with regards to Ruddock. POM is a more gifted all round rugby player, there was a reason he was the forward chosen to play wing in the 6 Nations and he could probably be a decent 12 himself, but in terms of being an actual blindside Ruddock has a lot of potential and a lot of the necessary skills. Although he occasionally plays 8, Ruddock is going to be a specialist blindside, POM can play all backrow positions to a decent level. He's clearly a talented guy but we're talking about his abilities as a 6

I have no idea where this notion that he is "no good in l/o" comes from. He is a more than decent jumper (he's not as athletic as POM but he's very efficient) and one thing that is very underrated is his lifting, at 6'3 he can get people a long way up in the air, and quickly. The fact you think his "body shape looks wrong" is a bizarre criticism to say the least. He's also pretty decent at the breakdown, there's been several occasions this season where he's won very important turnovers

He's far from the finished article and POM is certainly ahead at this stage, but the guy is 22 ffs

Childish Donald

Tobyglen wrote: »

So much wrong here. POM is one of the most skillful Irish players. He's a guy who's superb at the breakdown, carries well, good l/o ball and is quick. As he puts on more bulk he'll get even better.

Ruddock has a ,ot of weight on POM yet can't get near him in terms of ability. Ruddock has no gas, body shape looks wrong, no good in l/o and he hasn't a good rugby brain. He'll have a good career but if we're relying on him at international level then we're goosed.

very little difference in weight, POM is the slightly better player right now.

Ruddock has plenty of "gas", although i'm not sure how much is needed to be an effective blindside flanker. Is very good in the lineout and has a very good rugby brain. He obviously has clear leadership skills as he has captained Leinster and is currently captaining Emerging Ireland. If he can improve certain area's of his play he will become a very good blindside flanker in the Lydiate mold.


Neither POM or Ruddock have the potential to be world class blindside flankers. Both could becoming very good blindside flankers, both are a distance from that right now.

irishbucsfan

I'd love to know which aspects of the breakdown POM is superb at. Especially with regards to generic blindside play.

Lelantos

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056959303/5/#post84977260

Nearly as mad as this suggestion!

trouttrout

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd love to know which aspects of the breakdown POM is superb at. Especially with regards to generic blindside play.

I think hes got the skill set to be a brilliant 8. He's certainly a 6 in the Croft sense though in terms of the breakdown, although POM does have an uncanny talent for turning over ball

Wait, why are we talking about POM on a SOB at 12 thread anyway!?:D

trouttrout

Childish Donald wrote: »

Neither POM or Ruddock have the potential to be world class blindside flankers. Both could becoming very good blindside flankers, both are a distance from that right now.

So much wrong with this. First off, how the hell do you know if they're going to be "world class" or not? Do you think at 22 people knew if SOB was going to be a top class flanker?

Also, POM is not a distance from being a very good flanker, he is one. And while Ruddock is decent, he's not anywhere near POM in terms of ability at the moment

Childish Donald

trouttrout wrote: »

So much wrong with this. First off, how the hell do you know if they're going to be "world class" or not? Do you think at 22 people knew if SOB was going to be a top class flanker?

Also, POM is not a distance from being a very good flanker, he is one. And while Ruddock is decent, he's not anywhere near POM in terms of ability at the moment

Stephen Ferris is/was a world class blindside flanker, neither POM or Ruddock have that physical potential combined with rugby ability.

Both can be high level blindside flankers, neither have the potential to be as good as Stephen Ferris was.

POM is a distance from being a very good blindside flanker, he is however a pretty good rugby player. Not the prototypical blindside.

irishbucsfan

I don't think Ruddock will ever be world class. I think POM has a long way to go and I don't think he'll get there as a typical blindside because he's just not powerful enough.

I think Ruddock is probably one of the most likely to develop into a top class 6 though. And watching his last two games at the end of this season shows exactly why. I think Dom Ryan may be switching across to become a 6 on a more permanent basis though, so that will be quite interesting to watch.

jimjamcos

Dominic Ryan, by a long way, is the up-an-coming flanker I'm most looking forward to seeing fulfill his potential. He's got the size, brain and skillset to go right to the top!

trouttrout

Childish Donald wrote: »

Stephen Ferris is/was a world class blindside flanker, neither POM or Ruddock have that physical potential combined with rugby ability.

Both can be high level blindside flankers, neither have the potential to be as good as Stephen Ferris was.

POM is a distance from being a very good blindside flanker, he is however a pretty good rugby player. Not the prototypical blindside.

But he doesn't need to be the prototypical blindside. SOB is far from the prototypical openside but that doesn't mean he can't excel at the position

irishbucsfan

trouttrout wrote: »

But he doesn't need to be the prototypical blindside. SOB is far from the prototypical openside but that doesn't mean he can't excel at the position

Only works if you have an exceptional tight 5 or else someone else in the back row who can stay cover the workload. Who in the Munster back row can do that?

totallegend

I think too much is expected of Ruddock at this stage because he made his Ireland debut when he was so young. The guy is still only 22, very few back-row forwards have shown their full range of ability by that age.

O'Mahony is streets ahead of him at the moment, that much is clear, but I'd be slow enough to say it's all down to a difference in ability.

O'Mahony was very lucky to come into the Munster team when he did. If he had come through two or three years earlier, his competition would have been Wallace, Leamy and Quinlan and he'd be scrapping for a bench spot at best. Instead, he had a clear run at the first team and he made the most of it.

Ruddock hasn't had the same opportunity, he's got two immovable objects ahead of him in Heaslip and O'Brien so he's battling it out with McLaughlin and Jennings while Ryan and Murphy are looming up behind him looking for game time.

Guys of his age need regular rugby at the highest possible level to develop their game; O'Mahony has benefitted massively from the decline of the Munster back-row but unfortunately for Ruddock, the age profile of the other Leinster players is not in his favour.

P.Walnuts

I really shouldn't but......

Would POM start in a first choice Leinster backrow? Him at 6, SOB at 7 and Heaslip at 8?

Right i'm off to outer Mongolia for a few days....