Mercedes Pirelli Tribunal

joeyla

Shouldn't all the other teams be offered 1500km of testing instead of Mercedes "Private" 1000km of testing and just move on from it...?

Charlie-Bravo

There'll be a 'I ain't going down without bringing you with me' from both companies I reckon. All facts will be known after the tribunal and these will have a serious impact on the companies' reputations. Let the games begin...

smellslikeshoes

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I personally think Mercedes should be thrown out of the championship. But that's just my view on it.

That wouldn't benefit anyone to be honest. If they were going to discipline Merc a great big fine or lack of end of season prize money would be a better way of doing it that shouldn't negatively impact the show.

recyclebin

Could they ban Mercedes from a few friday practice sessions?

Jordan 199

I'd say the type of punishment that will be on the cards for Mercedes will be:

(a) Deduction of constructor championship points.

(b) Stripped of the all constructors points scored this season.

(c) A couple of race bans.

(d) A substantial fine.

Whatever happens to the team, I hope the drivers won't be deducted any points.

LIGHTNING

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Mercedes are loaded so a fine wouldn't do anything. They need to be punished properly but I doubt they will. What they did was so underhanded its not even funny.

Ferrari doing it at a private track was fine though?

colm911

I think Ross's interview was very interesting, he said all will become clear in the tribunal, there's no possible way him or Mercedes said to them selves let's do it and not think about the consequences. Personally I would love to be a fly on the wall in Paris. Ross braxn and Adrian newey are two of the most intelligent people in the sport, way more intelligent than anybody within in the fia. I'm gonna stick my neck out and say there will be no fine, no penalty, no loss of points. You heard it here first.

However, I do think it was sneaky to send there two race drivers out in plain white helmets

Jordan 199

colm911 wrote: »

I think Ross's interview was very interesting, he said all will become clear in the tribunal, there's no possible way him or Mercedes said to them selves let's do it and not think about the consequences. Personally I would love to be a fly on the wall in Paris. Ross braxn and Adrian newey are two of the most intelligent people in the sport, way more intelligent than anybody within in the fia. I'm gonna stick my neck out and say there will be no fine, no penalty, no loss of points. You heard it here first.

However, I do think it was sneaky to send there two race drivers out in plain white helmets

Sending Lewis and Nico out in white helmets was a very smart move.

Frank Bullitt

There is no way Merc will be thrown from the championship, they are going to be supplying 3 teams next year with engines and are well onboard with the eco direction of F1 now, punishing them like that would have ramifications.

Pirelli on the other hand, I could see this being troublesome for them, Michelin have been on contact with teams as early as last year so they could be well placed to jump in if Pirelli are given their P.45

paddy147

Ah this brings me back to the days of when everyone thought that Ferrari and the FIA were in bed together,with regards F1 and its rules.

paddy147

Ross Brawn keeps on saying that is was a "Pirelli Test".

He said that about 5 times in the space of 1 minute,when the BBC pressed him on the matter.


So someone is being lined up for a rather big fall.

colm911

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Sending Lewis and Nico out in white helmets was a very smart move.

It was a very smart move yes, the point in doing it I'm not sure of. I think Mercedes are laughing at all of this. I honestly don't think they will receive punishment

colm911

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ferrari doing it at a private track was fine though?

Also the used de la rosa their test driver. Remember all the corruption theories with Ross brawn/Ferrari/fia years ago, said theories could be just beginning with Mercedes.

Also brawn saying it was a Pirelli test loads of times is because it was a Pirelli test, unmarked tires, no suspension geometry setting changes allowed, no wing changes allowed, from the first hour to the last hour of the test the cars specification remained the same.......or so they say

colm911

colm911 wrote: »

there's no possible way him or Mercedes said to them selves let's do it and not think about the consequences.

Yep, F1 is all about exploiting loopholes. Every team bends the rules by exploiting loopholes in the rules or the way they rules are written.

Mercedes certainly knew it would be controversial. Clearly they believed they had found a loophole or ambiguity that allowed them to test with a 2013 car.

colm911

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yep, F1 is all about exploiting loopholes. Every team bends the rules by exploiting loopholes in the rules or the way they rules are written.

Mercedes certainly knew it would be controversial. Clearly they believed they had found a loophole or ambiguity that allowed them to test with a 2013 car.

Exactly and if anybody thinks that they don't know this wouldn't be looking at it properly.

I believe as Christian Horner says, it's not a loophole, it's interpreting how the rules are written lol

Infoanon

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I'd say the type of punishment that will be on the cards for Mercedes will be:

(a) Deduction of constructor championship points.

(b) Stripped of the all constructors points scored this season.

(c) A couple of race bans.

(d) A substantial fine.

Whatever happens to the team, I hope the drivers won't be deducted any points.

Or none of the above.........

Risk Mercedes pulling out ? - $Billions of reason why that will not happen and add in that Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda are Bernie placements.

Same goes for Pirelli - danger is now that the bigwigs are so peeved at F1 that they will pull the plug - $100s million reasons why F1 needs Pirelli to remain (and Hankook and Bridgestone are not interested).

Regarding the Helmets - simple explanation - this was a Pirelli test so sponsorship clashes meant that plain helmets had to be used

colm911

Infoanon wrote: »

Or none of the above.........

Risk Mercedes pulling out ? - $Billions of reason why that will not happen and add in that Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda are Bernie placements.

Same goes for Pirelli - danger is now that the bigwigs are so peeved at F1 that they will pull the plug - $100s million reasons why F1 needs Pirelli to remain (and Hankook and Bridgestone are not interested).

Regarding the Helmets - simple explanation - this was a Pirelli test so sponsorship clashes meant that plain helmets had to be used

Cars were in full livery as were the race suits with names, just plain white arai (Hamilton) and schuberth (rosberg) we're used supposedly.

I don't remember their being special helmets foruthat race weekend for either drivers, I could be wrong though

Infoanon

colm911 wrote: »

Cars were in full livery as were the race suits with names, just plain white arai (Hamilton) and schuberth (rosberg) we're used supposedly.

I don't remember their being special helmets foruthat race weekend for either drivers, I could be wrong though

Still holds as a plausible explanation - and thats all thats needed........even semi-plausible will do to save face.

colm911

Infoanon wrote: »

Still holds as a plausible explanation - and thats all thats needed........even semi-plausible will do to save face.

Very true, personally I can't wait till June 20th. Ted's f1 show the following night should be very good

Frank Bullitt

Infoanon wrote: »

Or none of the above.........

Risk Mercedes pulling out ? - $Billions of reason why that will not happen and add in that Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda are Bernie placements.

Same goes for Pirelli - danger is now that the bigwigs are so peeved at F1 that they will pull the plug - $100s million reasons why F1 needs Pirelli to remain (and Hankook and Bridgestone are not interested).

Regarding the Helmets - simple explanation - this was a Pirelli test so sponsorship clashes meant that plain helmets had to be used

Then why use the cars? They are covered in sponsor logos.

joeyla

In that BBC interview between Eddie and Ross, Eddie asked was Ross in possession of an e-mail from Charlie Whiting giving permission for the 'Pirelli' test to go ahead...Ross declined to comment but Eddie is usually fairly clued in...

Regardless of this e-mail the test still gave Mercedes a big advantage and I think offering all the other teams the same opportunity to test (in season) may be the fairest way to proceed...

Technoprisoner

give them grid penalty's for the rest of the season. Take their advantage away and teach them a lesson i say

mickdw

The way I see it, either, mercedes took a big punt figuring that brawn would have to fall on his sword if the **** hit the fan, something that it appears mercedes would be happy to engineer.
or
They have a pretty rock solid loophole via the pirelli contract and possibly some form of confirmation from the powers that be that pirelli are allowed to request a test. This would certainly depend on the wording of the pirelli contract but for the main part, if pirelli did invite all front runners to test, I think they will be able to do v little with mercedes.

Does anyone here really believe that Horner and co did not know about this test as it was happening.

colm911

mickdw wrote: »

The way I see it, either, mercedes took a big punt figuring that brawn would have to fall on his sword if the **** hit the fan, something that it appears mercedes would be happy to engineer.
or
They have a pretty rock solid loophole via the pirelli contract and possibly some form of confirmation from the powers that be that pirelli are allowed to request a test. This would certainly depend on the wording of the pirelli contract but for the main part, if pirelli did invite all front runners to test, I think they will be able to do v little with mercedes.

Does anyone here really believe that Horner and co did not know about this test as it was happening.

Of course they knew about the test, there is no way the top team in f1 didn't know about it. It's just a bit of a coincidence (I think not) that they decided to bring it up at the most publicised and glamorous f1 race on the calender

Jordan 199

Technoprisoner wrote: »

give them grid penalty's for the rest of the season. Take their advantage away and teach them a lesson i say

The thing is that if you give Mercedes grid penalties, you're punishing the drivers too.

Technoprisoner

Jordan 191 wrote: »

The thing is that if you give Mercedes grid penalties, you're punishing the drivers too.

but technically they are driving in an illegal car. no other car out there has had the same amount of testing done on it

colm911

Technoprisoner wrote: »

but technically they are driving in an illegal car. no other car out there has had the same amount of testing done on it

The thing is the fia can't really punish the drivers if Mercedes (their boss) asked them to do it. Hamilton earns what, close to 15 million a year from Mercedes and rosberg is around the 4 million mark, they would be very brave men to say their not doing it

Rascasse

Hearing starting now in Paris. Sky saying Merc offered a plea deal, which they refused. Must be confident, hell of a gamble otherwise.

Another early twist to what were already set to prove fascinating proceedings today according to Ted Kravitz is the suggestion from Niki Lauda, Mercedes' Non-Executive Chairman, via the German press that the FIA offered the team the chance to 'cut a deal' provided they pleaded guilty to the charges levied against them by the Tribunal:

Ted says: "This is a report we're getting this morning from the German press, Niki Lauda supposedly saying that the FIA were ready to cut a deal with Mercedes if they pleaded guilty ahead of the hearing. This hearing would have been cancelled and then some punishment would have been meted out.

"Lauda was also saying, after suggesting this supposedly, his Team Principal Ross Brawn and Toto Wolff said 'no, we want this to go to trial, go to the tribunal and take our luck in the court'. So we will see if that was the right decision or not. I think Ross Brawn fancies his chances here today, whether he's successful we'll find out in the next few hours."

Charlie-Bravo

what's the best way to follow this? would Twitter be best or Sky Sports News?

Rascasse

astrofluff wrote: »

what's the best way to follow this? would Twitter be best or Sky Sports News?

They've banned tweeting from inside in the tribunal so there will only be news when they take a break so either SSN or Twitter will do.

Charlie-Bravo

very interesting about the sporting code's wording:

The rules state explicitly that testing is classified as "any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship."

Harris says that the fact the test was organised, paid for and run by Pirelli means that Mercedes cannot be ruled to be in breach.

"This was not a test undertaken by Mercedes. They are critical words in text of Article 22 - 'undertaken by'," he said.

He added: "The Pirelli test was not a test undertaken by Mercedes, it is irrefutable it is a test undertaken by Pirelli."

Source: Autosport website

counterlock

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Brilliant! Its a polite way of giving the Tribunal the middle finger

Pirelli begin their defence in the bluntest terms by stating that "we do not come under the jurisdiction or authority of the FIA".

Tyre supplier's lawyer also cites 2009 FIA case against former Renault boss Flavio Briatore as proof the FIA can't take action against third parties/non-licence holders.

Which is essentially true. I'm going to agree with a previous poster that this will not be punished. There are too many ramifications for the structure of the future off the sport.

paddy147

So who gets a slap on the hand then??

Whats the end result of it all??

Or is it just back to normal as if nothing ever happened??

mickdw

paddy147 wrote: »

So who gets a slap on the hand then??

Whats the end result of it all??

Or is it just back to normal as if nothing ever happened??

Small testing ban for mercedes possibly. Dont think they can do alot to pirelli

Technoprisoner

paddy147 wrote: »

So who gets a slap on the hand then??

Whats the end result of it all??

Or is it just back to normal as if nothing ever happened??

wont know till tomorrow

paddy147

mickdw wrote: »

Small testing ban for mercedes possibly. Dont think they can do alot to pirelli

Throw a few thumbtacks infront of the Mercedes Pit Garage as their cars leave from their pitstops...


Take that Mercedes and Pirelli...:pac::pac:

Rascasse

Reprimands all round and no young drivers test for Merc. What a waste of time.

Red Bull and Ferrari whining in 3...2...1...

Vegeta

Rascasse wrote: »

Reprimands all round and no young drivers test for Merc. What a waste of time.

Red Bull and Ferrari whining in 3...2...1...

What is a reprimand when it's at home?

Vegeta

Vegeta wrote: »

What is a reprimand when it's at home?

Basically being told that you have been bold and don't do it again.

Rascasse

Vegeta wrote: »

What is a reprimand when it's at home?

Being told that it was a naughty thing to do and not to do it again. I.e. No punishment.

shamwari

Rascasse wrote: »

Being told that it was a naughty thing to do and not to do it again. I.e. No punishment.

Fair enough. So all the other teams can now go out and do a sneaky three day test and can forgo their young driver tests also.

If this was a small team up before the tribunal, they'd have been crucified. Big teams who transgress have always gotten off lightly.

Hang on a mo, does anyone remember a recent case where a big team was "spying" on another....:rolleyes:

Rascasse

shamwari wrote: »

Fair enough. So all the other teams can now go out and do a sneaky three day test and can forgo their young driver tests also.

If this was a small team up before the tribunal, they'd have been crucified. Big teams who transgress have always gotten off lightly.

Hang on a mo, does anyone remember a recent case where a big team was "spying" on another....:rolleyes:

Well, in fairness to Merc, the FIA admitted that they sort of agreed to it;

Both Pirelli and Mercedes disclosed to FIA at least the essence of what they intended to do in relation to the test and attempted to obtain permission for it; and Mercedes had no reason to believe that approval had not been given.

And the FIA is sharing costs with Merc and Pirelli which is a kind of admission that they were wrong too.

In the Spygate affair McLaren were fined $100m and kicked out of the constructors, and quite rightly too. Doesn't get much more severe than that.

shamwari

Rascasse wrote: »

Well, in fairness to Merc, the FIA admitted that they sort of agreed to it;
And the FIA is sharing costs with Merc and Pirelli which is a kind of admission that they were wrong too.

That part I wasn't aware of until just now. And if I read correctly, it seems that there was an admonishment of sorts handed down to to poor old Charlie..:o

Rascasse wrote: »

In the Spygate affair McLaren were fined $100m and kicked out of the constructors, and quite rightly too. Doesn't get much more severe than that.

McLaren got off lighter then than Honda did in 2005 or Tyrell did in '84. Despite what they did, they were allowed to continue racing and were not excluded or were docked points. The other two teams I mentioned were excluded from several races and the balance of a championship respectively, and in Tyrells case, they lost all their points won before exclusion.

H3llR4iser

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Ferrari used a 3 year old car which is what the rules state. Using a current car is what Merc did.

It was the car from 2011, and the rules also state that use of any car that is "substantially compliant" with current regulations is not allowed. A car from 2011 is, in fact, "substantially compliant" with 2013 technical rules, as the changes were minor (basic bodywork, wings and mechanical rules are unchanged).

Ferrari's test was in Barcelona just before the Spanish Grand Prix a race that, how strange, they totally dominated - it would have been an easy 1-2 without Massa's penalty.

Why Ferrari's position is not even being questioned, especially by the likes of Red Bull, baffles me quite a bit.

paddy147

Im sure that we will hear lots of whinging and complaining at the next F1 race and when Eddie Jordan opens his gob again and asks Christian Horner and Martin Whitmarsh what they think of it all.....:pac::pac:

Myrddin

paddy147 wrote: »

Im sure that we will hear lots of whinging and complaining at the next F1 race and when Eddie Jordan opens his gob again and asks Christian Horner and Martin Whitmarsh what they think of it all.....:pac::pac:

Ah sure he's only doing his job, & isn't afraid to ask the questions that most presenters would be. Can you imagine Coulthard grilling Horner or Whitmarsh? I certainly couldn't. Eddie often wears his heart on his sleeve, & while he can be wrong, he's as honest as they come in terms of doing his job. More power to him

paddy147

EnterNow wrote: »

Ah sure he's only doing his job, & isn't afraid to ask the questions that most presenters would be. Can you imagine Coulthard grilling Horner or Whitmarsh? I certainly couldn't. Eddie often wears his heart on his sleeve, & while he can be wrong, he's as honest as they come in terms of doing his job. More power to him

Ah I know,I know......we all love Eddie and his enthusiastic words and thoughts.:pac::D

Myrddin

paddy147 wrote: »

Ah I know,I know......we all love Eddie and his enthusiastic words and thoughts.:pac::D

I'd be a big fan of Eddie's no bs approach to the scripted & corporate responses other reporters/anchors are happy to accept. But even I, hate when he does the podium interviews

paddy147

EnterNow wrote: »

I'd be a big fan of Eddie's no bs approach to the scripted & corporate responses other reporters/anchors are happy to accept. But even I, hate when he does the podium interviews

I rekon the drivers feel the same way too.:pac: