Fintan O'Toole: "Cyclists are spawn of the devil"

RobFowl

I see Fintan O Toole had a go at us in the IT today..

Sub Clarkson standard rant tbh

More like a James Martin/Nigel Havers level troll

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/cycling-is-a-good-thing-and-boy-do-cyclists-know-it-1.1423498

DirkVoodoo

Isn't national cycling week around the corner? Sounds like Fintan is just trying to crank up his self-promotion machine.

Ole Rodrigo

Can't believe he's a runner :eek:

I pictured him on Pashley Guvnor.

Nwm2

Haven't seen this posted:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/cycling-is-a-good-thing-and-boy-do-cyclists-know-it-1.1423498


Ok, so first off, he is being tongue in cheek, so everyone relax and read the article.

I guess we're supposed to add our own thoughts rather than just posting a link, so... I read the article with a sympathetic ear for his complaints: speaking as a regular cyclist, CI full competition license holder etc, I must say that on my journeys through the city (in my car), cyclists are by far the most frequent violators of the rules of the road. Going through red lights, cycling on footpaths, going up one way streets is par for the course. I don't see car drivers doing anything similar with anything like the same frequency. Yes, I have my close calls with cars like everyone else (almost got run over by a 4x4 with RESCUE on it the other day), but cyclists have a lot of improvement to make in their own behaviour. Yes, we are not as lethal as a car driven at 100kph, but hitting a pedestrian at 30 kph wouldn't be pretty either.

TinyExplosions

Nwm2 wrote: »

Haven't seen this posted:

I Have

rollingscone

Nwm2 wrote: »

Haven't seen this posted:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/cycling-is-a-good-thing-and-boy-do-cyclists-know-it-1.1423498


Ok, so first off, he is being tongue in cheek, so everyone relax and read the article.

I guess we're supposed to add our own thoughts rather than just posting a link, so... I read the article with a sympathetic ear for his complaints: speaking as a regular cyclist, CI full competition license holder etc, I must say that on my journeys through the city (in my car), cyclists are by far the most frequent violators of the rules of the road. Going through red lights, cycling on footpaths, going up one way streets is par for the course. I don't see car drivers doing anything similar with anything like the same frequency. Yes, I have my close calls with cars like everyone else (almost got run over by a 4x4 with RESCUE on it the other day), but cyclists have a lot of improvement to make in their own behaviour. Yes, we are not as lethal as a car driven at 100kph, but hitting a pedestrian at 30 kph wouldn't be pretty either.

I think there's an inverse relationship between cycling experience/commitment and cycle safety.

For instance I saw far more bad behaviour by cyclists during the recent warm spell, the fairweather brigade running riot because they don't know any better because they're normally too weak and stupid to be self propelled.

Case in point a bunch of guys doing reckless panicky **** on bikes with the seats set so low that their knees were above their knuckles, some idiot on such a fabtraption leapt onto the footpath to get a around a stopped car and swerved back onto the road after belting it through myself and some other peds.

I stopped to fix my strava settings the other day and some Lithuanian guy swore me out of it for stopping in the cycle lane (about 30m ahead of him after I signalled) he was also someone I'd over taken six or seven times already as there was traffic and he was not impinged by lights or HGVs turning left.

Can we not just put up a banner on this site that says footpath cycling and RLJing are for RichardHeads?

Bunnyhopper

Nwm2 wrote: »

I must say that on my journeys through the city (in my car), cyclists are by far the most frequent violators of the rules of the road. Going through red lights, cycling on footpaths, going up one way streets is par for the course. I don't see car drivers doing anything similar with anything like the same frequency.

It's worth bearing in mind when making these anecdotal frequency comparisons that the cycling violations you're talking about are much more visible than comparable "par for the course" violations by drivers.

When a cyclist goes the wrong way on a one-way street, breaks a red light, or cycles along a footpath it's very easy to see them do that. It's harder to see when a driver has a phone in their hand set to speaker and is chatting away as they drive along wearing no seatbelt and doing 40 in a 30 zone.

detones

Yes I happened to read this at lunch today. It didn’t really surprise or upset me personally. Apart from the contrived imagery he depicts in his text “an old lady pedalling up a hill against a rain-sodden West of Ireland winter wind is the visual epitome of human doggedness in the face of the innate cruelty of an absurd universe.” What utter bullsh!t but I’m sure he has deadlines to meet and lines to fill or should I say, like a weathered rock on the shoreline of humanity the writer transcribes his craft so others may be exalted from the depths of the abyss.

In the laboured and meandering waffle he does have some (minor) valid points. However what concerns me is the general tone of the article and the impression it gives to motorists. It really put a target on cyclist back and contributes to an existing adversarial culture of cyclist versus motorist. In this battle the cyclist loose every time.

MrCreosote

Interesting that they've toned down the headline in the online edition.

In the print edition the headline is "Cyclists need to get over themselves".

Nwm2

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

It's worth bearing in mind when making these anecdotal frequency comparisons that the cycling violations you're talking about are much more visible than comparable "par for the course" violations by drivers.

When a cyclist goes the wrong way on a one-way street, breaks a red light, or cycles along a footpath it's very easy to see them do that. It's harder to see when a driver has a phone in their hand set to speaker and is chatting away as they drive along wearing no seatbelt and doing 40 in a 30 zone.

True, true.

But I don't see motorists running red lights, mounting footpaths, or going up one way streets - all of which they COULD do - as often as I do cyclists.

droidus

Pedestrians are the number one lawbreakers on the roads by an order of magnitude. For every RLJ'r I see 20 jaywalkers.

rollingscone

Nwm2 wrote: »

True, true.

But I don't see motorists running red lights, mounting footpaths, or going up one way streets - all of which they COULD do - as often as I do cyclists.

I do

Chips Lovell

Threads merged

wandatowell

Poor old Fintan comes across as a child imo

daragh_

Fair Play Finto. Not afraid to tackle the issues that matter. You should start a Political Party to stamp out this sort of thing.

Oh, wait....

07Lapierre

Maybe cyclists should be forced to pay roadtax*? That'll teach'em!








* i know... Its motortax...its a joke

ericzeking

Through the period of good weather it was quite apparent that there is a massive difference between a 'person on a bike' and a cyclist....some of the behaviour on the roads and footpaths by the fair weather types was a disgrace and it's very easy to see why motorists/pedestrians would get the hump with us.

Ardent

rollingscone wrote: »

I do

How often would you see a motorist doing these things, versus how often you see a cyclist doing them?

galwaycyclist

Why do the bike lobby groups use phrases like “duty of care to the more vulnerable” to mean only the duty of motorists to cyclists?

Fintan why don't you have the moral courage to openly name the bike lobby groups you accuse of such things?

rollingscone

Ardent wrote: »

How often would you see a motorist doing these things, versus how often you see a cyclist doing them?

I live beside a one way street. I see motorists driving the wrong way up it every day.

POBS who don't understand that they are on a vehicle are the problem. Very few cyclists use the one way at all as it's not really connected for them. I do see plenty of salmon using cycle lanes in the wrong direction though.

Rather than focusing on how bad cyclists are/aren't maybe an RSA campaign to the effect that "A bicycle is a vehicle" would be more effective.

el tel

He could just have written a single sentence article:

I've seen people ride bikes like idiots on pavements.

wendell borton

What a load of crap, everyone knows the spawn of Satan rides a tricycle.:pac:

elduggo

07Lapierre wrote: »

Maybe cyclists should be forced to pay roadtax*? That'll teach'em!

pavement tax you mean. The cyclists he's on about don't use the road.

Skrynesaver

On my morning cycle roughly 60% of cyclists break left turn lights (I know the justifications and largely agree with them but it remains against the law for now), about 20% break lights regardless, now I know every cyclist gets the opportunity to break lights while the cages are queued up behind them and in my experience as a driver I'm one of the few who can see the colour amber.

I also regularly see people riding on the footpath, unless you have stabilisers, or need to hold daddy's hand there is no justification for riding on the footpath, if you know the "cycle lane" up ahead is a POS, ride on the road like a grown adult.

It is my firm belief that idiots on bikes are responsible for most drivers' failure to realise we're real traffic to be treated with the same respect as any other vehicle on the road. Obviously some will never get over their prejudice though I suspect they're drawn from the same group as the individuals you see breaking red lights, cycling on the footpath and bereft of arms to signal with as they aproach turns and junctions.

</rant>

Hmmzis

Ardent wrote: »

How often would you see a motorist doing these things, versus how often you see a cyclist doing them?

On my commute:

RLJing - Leonards corner, every morning between 3-5 cars barrel through red ligts. Less in the evenings, but one or two will ignore the 'straight only' green arrow and plow through a 'green man'.

Footpaths - cars on footpaths are very common. Some drivers must be thinking that footpaths are for parking cars or going round a left turning queue and pedestrians shouldn't be there since they don't pay 'road tax'.

One way streets - have none on the commute, so can't comment.

petethedrummer

Ardent wrote: »

How often would you see a motorist doing these things, versus how often you see a cyclist doing them?

At almost every junction around Dublin you can stop and watch cars break the lights. Sit on the M50 at the speed limit and you'll see an enormous number of cars breaking it. They break speed limits in built up areas. Double parking. Not signalling. Sitting in junctions. Stopping in cycle lanes. Stopping in pedestraian areas. Using mobile phones. I was almost hit on my bike by a lady brushing her hair as she drifted into a bus lane. I've been left hooked too.

I cycle and drive in equal measure. So far I've never had my life endangered by another cyclist, can't say the same for motorists.

If you had your child in the car you wouldn't really be worried about the impact of a red light jumping cyclist on your child's safety now would you. Maybe some tiny fraction of your brain. You'd be more concerned about being rear ended by another car or hit in the side from someone accelerating through a junction.

You wouldn't apprehensive about letting your child out on a bike because some cyclist might run over him/her. It's because cycling facilities are terrible and Irish driving is pretty bad.

elduggo

Skrynesaver wrote: »

bereft of arms to signal with as they approach turns and junctions.

we're possibly using our arms to control our bikes.

just possibly.

doozerie

Oh for fcuk sake Fintan ya prat. We all have our grievances whether it's obnoxious behaviour by other road users (in/on *any* mode of transport, including plain old feet) or something else entirely, and we get to choose how we react to such stresses. We can maintain some perspective and refuse to let it tarnish our view of an entire group of people, such as drivers or pedestrians or cyclists, or we can opt to be lazy and bitter arses and consign the entire group(s) to the category of utter bastards. There are many lazy and bitter people about, and it is the easy option, but you'd hope that a journalist in a national newspaper might put the brakes on their animosity and apply some reasoning before they put a lot of bile into print.

Fintan has chosen the lazy route, which reflects very poorly on him. Yes there are utter idiots on bikes, yes they are a danger, and yes the gardai should indeed do more to tackle the problem, but wrapping these valid points up in such bitterness and hysteria does nothing to tackle the problem and simply fuels the fires of those that believe cyclists to be the scum of the earth. Fintan is not working towards a solution with this article, it does not come across as an article intended to educate or generate debate, he is just generating even more animosity through his rant.

If someone were to publish an article bemoaning the woeful standard of journalism in this country based entirely on the content of the tabloid newspapers, would Fintan take offence I wonder?

HansHolzel

Cyclists invade his cultural space. He tells us what it all means.

Bunnyhopper

Nwm2 wrote: »

True, true.

But I don't see motorists running red lights, mounting footpaths, or going up one way streets - all of which they COULD do - as often as I do cyclists.

What counts as a "par for the course" violation is not the same for a bike as for a car.

A driver mounting the footpath is not "par for the course" in the way that it (sadly) is for some cyclists. Bad as it is to have a bike rolling along a footpath towards you, a car would be much much worse. You just can't plausibly compare them in that way.

The point is that it's harder to see drivers doing the lots of little things that they can get away with.

Skrynesaver

elduggo wrote: »

we're possibly using our arms to control our bikes.

just possibly.

I tend to have both hands on the bars when I'm cornering, however I also tend to indicate my intention to cross lanes or turn to other road users before I manoeuvre, partially out of courtesy and partially so that the impatient git overtaking at a junction has no excuse for decorating his bonnet with me.


Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe we're dealing with a minority of cyclists who are genuinely dangerous to themselves and others, however failure to obey the law creates the impression in other road users that bikes are "not real traffic" and as such we "should just get out of the way".

This attitude has been heartily endorsed by road planning in this country whereby the primary objective of most cycle lanes is to get cyclists out of the way.

Oh god the rant keeps bellowing up inside me.

check_six

Ardent wrote: »

How often would you see a motorist doing these things, versus how often you see a cyclist doing them?

Watch out at any set of lights when it's busy and you will see a car go through a red light at every change (this is not just people trying to clear the junction either). The cars have got to stop when the vehicle in front stops, but when it's bumper to bumper the one at the front will always try to sneak through after the light goes red.

You'll also see cars wildly swerving across lanes all the time. Also, the contraflow buslane on St Stephen's Green is very popular for private car drivers, it's much easier to get to Earlsfort Terrace that way.

But I wouldn't worry about them that much, because they don't seem to do much harm...

Reekwind

doozerie wrote: »

Fintan has chosen the lazy route, which reflects very poorly on him. Yes there are utter idiots on bikes, yes they are a danger, and yes the gardai should indeed do more to tackle the problem, but wrapping these valid points up in such bitterness and hysteria...

You see that thing over there in the distance that you've missed? That's the point

You, and others in the thread, are displaying exactly the sort of holier than thou attitude that O'Toole, playfully, mocked. 'My God! He's dared suggest that some cyclists travel on the footpath. He must be a raving idiot. Better gather the mob!'

Inquitus

Reekwind wrote: »

You see that thing over there in the distance that you've missed? That's the point

You, and others in the thread, are displaying exactly the sort of holier than thou attitude that O'Toole, playfully, mocked. 'My God! He's dared suggest that some cyclists travel on the footpath. He must be a raving idiot. Better gather the mob!'

It was poor, lazy journalism at best. Why should people let him get away with misguided sweeping generalisations?

DirkVoodoo

And in other news I see ANOTHER car has hit a Luas...I'm losing count at this stage.

When will we be seeing the "Motorists, please don't drive into the Luas" posters going up around the city?

DirkVoodoo

Reekwind wrote: »

You see that thing over there in the distance that you've missed? That's the point

You, and others in the thread, are displaying exactly the sort of holier than thou attitude that O'Toole, playfully, mocked. 'My God! He's dared suggest that some cyclists travel on the footpath. He must be a raving idiot. Better gather the mob!'

No one is saying that. People are saying that his article only incites the type of "get cyclists off the road!" "make them pay tax and sit a test!" crap that is now filling up the comments section below the article. This translates into closer overtaking, pulling out dangerously and all other sort of "well you shouldn't be on the road" driving that people encounter daily.

I couldn't care what Fintan thinks about cyclists. But publishing it in a national newspaper risks making the roads a little less safe for me. That I do care about.

elduggo

Nwm2 wrote: »

I don't see car drivers doing anything similar with anything like the same frequency.

I think this is a rather clumsy comment. I can recall 2 incidents off the top of my head (in Dublin in the past 15 years or so) where a car/bus mounted the pavement and there were fatalities (several in one such incident).

Regardless the frequency I think you'll find there have been far more fatalities from cars mounting the footpath (for whatever reason) than cyclists doing likewise.

Not having a go at you, but even attempting to draw a comparison of this kind is rather pointless in my opinion

Reekwind

Inquitus wrote: »

It was poor, lazy journalism at best. Why should people let him get away with misguided sweeping generalisations?

Because he's a journalist writing an opinion piece. And, as demonstrated by this thread, there's a grain of truth in his characterisation of cyclists as holier than thou saints who don't take criticism well

DirkVoodoo wrote:

No one is saying that. People are saying that his article only incites the type of "get cyclists off the road!" "make them pay tax and sit a test!" crap that is now filling up the comments section below the article. This translates into closer overtaking, pulling out dangerously and all other sort of "well you shouldn't be on the road" driving that people encounter daily

So where does that leave us? No one is allowed to write anything that questions the behaviour or attitude of cyclists? No one is allowed to bemoan this very attitude that sneers at anyone who does dare criticise saints on a bike? There's no room for humour in the serious business that is cycling?

And if the national papers keep quiet about this, or only write glowing accounts of cycling, then we'll never hear anymore of the 'road tax' gubbins? I'd only glad that no one told me as a kid that cycling meant donning a ghetto mentality as well as helmet

Dermot Illogical

check_six wrote: »

Also, the contraflow buslane on St Stephen's Green is very popular for private car drivers, it's much easier to get to Earlsfort Terrace that way.

I cycle that frequently and have probably seen this only once or twice, and it's usually someone looking very lost. I do see what look like private cars in it a lot, but they're unmarked garda cars heading to Harcourt St usually.

bermo

Is anyone spotting a pattern? Fintan, Finian, Mary O'Rourke, George Hook all complaining about cyclists? All of a certain age, and all conservative in their own way. People like me have worked hard to create these new cyclists, to up the numbers, to create pressure which will have to be dealt with by the "authorites". In their world you engage with the authorites by writing letters, tabling proposals & motions, seconded by standing member Mr. etc. In the modern era you force the authorities to act. The authorities are not showing leadership, they are passive operators balancing the forces acting on them. If you are not creating a force you are not part of the debate. Fintan and Finian are trying to mobilise a grey army. They will fail becuase they believe too much in public debate and public perceptions while forces of nature beyond their control are dictating outcomes all around them.

check_six

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

I cycle that frequently and have probably seen this only once or twice, and it's usually someone looking very lost. I do see what look like private cars in it a lot, but they're unmarked garda cars heading to Harcourt St usually.

Okay, how about Nassau St. heading west from Dawson St.. Not contraflow, but barred to private cars also.

I have seen plenty of cars in the Stephen's Green contraflow, though I haven't considered the unmarked Garda car possibility before.

mcgratheoin

Reekwind wrote: »

So where does that leave us?

It might leave us in a place where we can have a healthy debate about how to make the roads a safer place for all users. It might even leave us somewhere that a journalist doesn't feel necessitates an opening paragraph "cyclists are the spawn of the devil".

In summary, it's a lazy opinion piece that Fintan fired off in a jiffy because the weather was too nice for him to sit down and do any real work. All he's done is list a litany of abuses by one sector of road user - he could easily have written the same article about pedestrians or motorists but those are two sectors that the author frequently finds himself a member and as such talking about abuses that he may be guilty of himself would be a bit too uncomfortable for him.

TinyExplosions

check_six wrote: »

Okay, how about Nassau St. heading west from Dawson St.. Not contraflow, but barred to private cars also.

I have seen plenty of cars in the Stephen's Green contraflow, though I haven't considered the unmarked Garda car possibility before.

Don't forget the 'bus gate' at college green -plenty of cars use that (and a few even get caught!)

droidus

Reekwind wrote: »

Because he's a journalist writing an opinion piece. And, as demonstrated by this thread, there's a grain of truth in his characterisation of cyclists as holier than thou saints who don't take criticism well

So where does that leave us? No one is allowed to write anything that questions the behaviour or attitude of cyclists? No one is allowed to bemoan this very attitude that sneers at anyone who does dare criticise saints on a bike? There's no room for humour in the serious business that is cycling?

Nonsense. try reading around this forum and you'll find some very tough criticism of the behaviour of cyclists.

The difference is that they generally come from an informed position and are not simply a badly thought out short sighted rants that were probably the result of a rushed deadline before the holidays.

DirkVoodoo

Reekwind wrote: »

So where does that leave us? No one is allowed to write anything that questions the behaviour or attitude of cyclists? No one is allowed to bemoan this very attitude that sneers at anyone who does dare criticise saints on a bike? There's no room for humour in the serious business that is cycling?

And if the national papers keep quiet about this, or only write glowing accounts of cycling, then we'll never hear anymore of the 'road tax' gubbins? I'd only glad that no one told me as a kid that cycling meant donning a ghetto mentality as well as helmet

Where are you getting this? A national newspaper is about balance, if you want your moany rants, then I expect the same moany rants about van drivers driving with their feet across the dash while the cruise control is on, soccer moms in SUVs texting their pool boys, bus drivers being racist, taxi drivers being racist, pedestrians with ipods hopping off kerbs, etc.

There seem to be very few, if any of these. Most are linked to reports, national statistics, etc. but cycling seems to reserve a special spot for journalists with axes to grind and no facts to back it up.

Can someone please tell me:

1) Pedestrians killed or injured by cyclists on footpaths.
2) Pedestrians killed by cyclists jumping red lights.

I'm not defending either btw, I don't really do 1) or 2) and my mum says she was nearly clipped by a cyclist on the footpath to which I replied "He should be on the road". Indeed, I see it quite a bit and it annoys me, but I've yet to see anyone injured or maimed in the way that the hysterical anti-cycling brigade seem to report.

"Two of my friends Joe, two of my friends have been knocked down and injured by these thugs!"

Please, spare me.

doozerie

Reekwind wrote:

You see that thing over there in the distance that you've missed? That's the point

Let's have a look... Hmmm, actually I think you'll find that's your reason, having fled your body and now rapidly disappearing into the distance.

Reekwind wrote:

You, and others in the thread, are displaying exactly the sort of holier than thou attitude that O'Toole, playfully, mocked. 'My God! He's dared suggest that some cyclists travel on the footpath. He must be a raving idiot. Better gather the mob!'

Incorrect. On all counts. A good demonstration though of how the standard of debate struggles when your reason has abandoned you, much like Fintan's.

AstraMonti

He must have a small willy.

RobFowl

AstraMonti wrote: »

He must have a small willy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klcyxSmBUOw

HivemindXX

Reekwind wrote: »

Because he's a journalist writing an opinion piece. And, as demonstrated by this thread, there's a grain of truth in his characterisation of cyclists as holier than thou saints who don't take criticism well

It's my opinion he's a hack, appealing to the masses and telling them they are poor victims of cyclists bad behaviour when actually the opposite is true (unless you consider being annoyed at seeing something you don't like to be the equivalent of being run over and killed). No grain of truth in that? Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander? No? Oh well....

When is one of these self appointed crusaders going to come out against amber gamblers, footpath parking and motorway speeding in the same supposedly tongue in cheek manner? Since the majority of their readers are probably guilty of these things I am not holding my breath for this to happen. Target the minorities, it's a tried and true tactic.

check_six

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Don't forget the 'bus gate' at college green -plenty of cars use that (and a few even get caught!)

Of course, should have remembered that one!

The way people look at it is that they are not harming anyone, and it makes life easier for themselves to do these kind of manoeuvers. Doing these kind of things should cause mayhem, but it doesn't really. Just some extra traffic. No one bats an eye to it because that's just the way cars roll here.

It's much the same with bikes. If all the 'outrageous' things that cyclists do were so bad there should be anarchy on the blood splattered streets, but there isn't. Cyclists don't block up roads and delay people in cities. They don't cause life threatening injuries. And they shouldn't be picked on as a sort of underclass grouping who are worthy of derision and scorn. It's gone a bit like a weird sort of xenophobia, or maybe anti-red haired people type of thing where everyone feels okay to have a cut at them. Picking on the little harmless guy is not cool.

caff

Nwm2 wrote: »

True, true.

But I don't see motorists running red lights, mounting footpaths, or going up one way streets - all of which they COULD do - as often as I do cyclists.

between 8-9 and 16.00 - 18-00 junction of merrion square and mount street weekdays, plenty of motorist running the lights then blaring the horn at pedestrians trying to cross the road.