Car insurance for American in Ireland

donegal.

does anyone know where you can get car insurance for an american , part time irish resident.
he has a house and car in ireland, but only lives here about 3 months a year.
And he only has a US license.
The company he used last year wont insure him again unless he gets an irish license.

vrusinov

What about http://www.clements.com/?

donegal.

thanks for the reply, but my mate's gotton insurance of a american broker ( cost a whopping $3000 )

colm_c

Probably would have worked out cheaper to just hire a car, with that insurance, tax, deprecation etc.

Marcusm

donegal. wrote: »

thanks for the reply, but my mate's gotton insurance of a american broker ( cost a whopping $3000 )

Who is his US broker arranging the insurance through? There is a theoretical ability to insure on a cross border basis in the EU but it's such an imperfect market that I don't know any private customer who as taken advantage f it. Even obtaining an insurance disc (as opposed to an insurance cert) might not be familiar to a non Irish insurer.

I have a vested interest; I live in London but spend a week a month in Dublin and have often thought about having an Irish reg'd car here (have secure parking space) as opposed to driving over each month (twice in last two weeks and 2400 miles total) or leaving one of my UK cars here. Probably can arrange through an Irish broker. Was looking at the 335i mentioned on another thread - only €530 fully comp but not executable as non resident.

Matt Simis

Marcusm wrote: »

or leaving one of my UK cars here. Probably can arrange through an Irish broker. Was looking at the 335i mentioned on another thread - only €530 fully comp but not executable as non resident.

Can you not just do this, leave a UK car here on UK / Pan-Euro insurance? Why bother with Irish insurance at all?

Marcusm

Matt Simis wrote: »

Can you not just do this, leave a UK car here on UK / Pan-Euro insurance? Why bother with Irish insurance at all?

Because I'm trying to justify a third car (in between the size of the other two) to myself. Plus if I left it here all the time (which is what I'd prefer), I'd be more concerned about a UK ins co seeking recovery if claim made - they ask more explicit questions about usual residence and where car kept overnight etc.

Big Nasty

What year is the car?

vrusinov

donegal. wrote: »

thanks for the reply, but my mate's gotton insurance of a american broker ( cost a whopping $3000 )

Sounds kinda expensive. I'm in the same boat: Russian with no recognized here driving history. I've just got Irish provisional and my insurance is half of that for 1.6 cooper.

clements was giving similar quote but I decided it's better to go with some local insurer.

ProudDUB

OP, I'm with Allianz. I got a great deal from them when I moved back here from the US. I only had a US license at the time. I made noises about getting a learner permit at the time, (which I since did) but they would have still insured me without it. When I renewed the policy this year, they never asked me if I had since gotten an Irish license, so I don't think they really care whether I have one or not.

Initially, they wanted the guts of 1,200 euros for insurance, due to my not having any previous driving history in Ireland. But they gave me a 60% no claims bonus when I sent them proof from my US insurance company, and GA Dept of Transport showing my perfect driving US record, and my lack of any accidents, claims, tickets etc etc during the previous 10 years. It took me ages to get that paperwork issued sent to me due to the time difference, and the fact that it was being posted to another county. I imagine your friend would have an easier job of it if he is based in the US.

I also added on a couple of relations, who won't ever drive the car, except to keep it ticking over when I am away. That lowered the cost of the policy even further, as it meant that the risk was spread more evenly spread. I only pay a little over 400 euros for full comprehensive cover, which I reckon is a pretty good deal seeing as I never drove in this country up to last year.

kerten

Be careful about having at least a valid irish learner permit all the time you are driving around. Your insurance will be void when your non-eu driving license is not valid anymore after 1 year of residency.

Garda doesn't care validity of non-eu driving licenses too much until there is an accident you involve.

ProudDUB

kerten wrote: »

Be careful about having at least a valid irish learner permit all the time you are driving around. Your insurance will be void when your non-eu driving license is not valid anymore after 1 year of residency.

The OP's friend is only here 3 months out of the year. That is not not long enough to establish residency in Ireland, which I think is deemed to be your spending at least 6 months of the year here. So each time he arrives back in the country, he is starting out fresh regarding residency. If he was planning on living here full time, yes, he would need to get himself an Irish license after his first year of residency was up. But if he is continually coming and going at the rate that he currently is, he won't.

donegal.

ProudDUB wrote: »

The OP's friend is only here 3 months out of the year. That is not not long enough to establish residency in Ireland, which I think is deemed to be your spending at least 6 months of the year here. So each time he arrives back in the country, he is starting out fresh regarding residency. If he was planning on living here full time, yes, he would need to get himself an Irish license after his first year of residency was up. But if he is continually coming and going at the rate that he currently is, he won't.

But this is exactly he reason he couldn't get his insurance renewed this year. He owns a house here, maybe that makes him a resident in the eyes of the insurance company. In the last year he was in ireland 3 times for a total of 13 weeks.
When he rang the insurance co. to renew his policy he was told he couldn't get it for a second year using his US license, he would have to get an irish license.
He has rang a couple of companies and brokers but they all said the same thing.

ProudDUB

Has he called Allianz? As I said in my previous post, I renewed with them back in April. I got the renewal letter in the post, I called up and made a renewal payment over the phone, and a few days later I got my new paperwork and insurance disc in the post. At no stage of the proceedings, was the fact that I still only had an American license brought up. I have since gotten an Irish license, but they don't know that.

Anyway, if all of them insist on him having an Irish license, why doesn't he just get one? A learner permit is not all that hard to get, even if you are visiting from another country. If you send him the study book or CD rom from here, he can study for the theory test. Then he can book himself in for the theory test when he knows he will be in the country again. The theory test booking process is all done on line. When he has the pass cert from that, all he needs is a basic eye exam cert that any high street optician here can do, 2 pass port photos, the form and the fee & he is all set.

Due to the backlog of issuing the new credit card style licenses, there may be a delay in him actually getting the learner permit, but thats a delay all applicants face, it wouldn't be just him.

donegal.

thanks , i told him to ring allianze.
He's going to look into getting an irish license when he gets here, but he still needs insurance as soon as he arrives

ProudDUB

Well if Allianz or any other insurance company can't take care of him, he may just have to suck it up on his next visit here & hire a car that comes with insurance, just as regular tourists do. But if he gets the ball rolling on getting his Irish learner permit while he is here, once he has it, he can then insure his own car, and he'll be able to drive it when ever he is in Ireland.

He may want to think about sitting his test on one of his visits to Ireland, and getting a full Irish license at some stage. Learner permits only last for two years, and I don't think that you can keep on renewing them indefinitely.

Marcusm

ProudDUB wrote: »

He may want to think about sitting his test on one of his visits to Ireland, and getting a full Irish license at some stage. Learner permits only last for two years, and I don't think that you can keep on renewing them indefinitely.

The OP's friend cannot apply for an Irish learner permit or driving licence as their usual place of residence is outside the Republic of Ireland.

ProudDUB

Marcusm wrote: »

The OP's friend cannot apply for an Irish learner permit or driving licence as their usual place of residence is outside the Republic of Ireland.

Yes, they can. I was able to get one, and I wasn't yet a full time resident in the country. The licensing authorities website does say that you are supposed to be a full time resident in Ireland to acquire a drivers license, but no one makes you prove that you are one. All I was asked to show was proof of residence, such as a household bill in my name. As the OP's friend owns a house here and probably has household bill in his name too, that should suffice. It did for me anyway.

Marcusm

ProudDUB wrote: »

Yes, they can. I was able to get one, and I wasn't yet a full time resident in the country. The licensing authorities website does say that you are supposed to be a full time resident in Ireland to acquire a drivers license, but no one makes you prove that you are one. All I was asked to show was proof of residence, such as a household bill in my name. As the OP's friend owns a house here and probably has household bill in his name too, that should suffice. It did for me anyway.

Interesting that you note that the regulatory authority states hat you must be one but that as no one asked you for proof, you consider that the licence remains valid. You may or may not have been resident, the OP's friend clearly will not satisfy the requirements and as such, in the event of any issue arising, will not be worth the plastic it's printed on. Reg 20(1) Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006, if you're interested.

Marlow

Clements (http://www.clements.com/) as linked above is the most viable choice.

It's aimed at expat Americans originally, but any expat can apply for it, ie. if you're signing the insurance in a country you don't origin from.

They don't care about noclaims or anything else and the premium is based on the value of the car.

I remember getting insurance with them in 2005 for a '92 BMW 520i, aged 29 for USD 680 fully comp including open drive and recovery worldwide. Car valued at USD 3500.

/M

ProudDUB

Marcusm wrote: »

Interesting that you note that the regulatory authority states hat you must be one but that as no one asked you for proof, you consider that the licence remains valid. You may or may not have been resident, the OP's friend clearly will not satisfy the requirements and as such, in the event of any issue arising, will not be worth the plastic it's printed on. Reg 20(1) Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006, if you're interested.

I would genuinely love to love of an instance where someones drivers license was taken away from them, or declared invalid due to the holder not spending enough time in the country.

When I was getting the ball rolling on living in Ireland for part of the year, and acquiring my first Irish DL, I must have called the RSA 4-5 times about the process. They were very eager to help me, even though I was very open and upfront about the fact that I would not be living in Ireland on a full time basis.

At no point was I told that I would be obtaining a license under false pretences, or that once I had one, I had to surrender it if I wound up leaving the country for an extended periods of time, or that the license would be invalid if I did not spend X amount of time in the country. I do acknowledge that there is some ambiguity on the matter, given what they say on their own website.

Marcusm

ProudDUB wrote: »

I would genuinely love to love of an instance where someones drivers license was taken away from them, or declared invalid due to the holder not spending enough time in the country.

When I was getting the ball rolling on living in Ireland for part of the year, and acquiring my first Irish DL, I must have called the RSA 4-5 times about the process. They were very eager to help me, even though I was very open and upfront about the fact that I would not be living in Ireland on a full time basis.

At no point was I told that I would be obtaining a license under false pretences, or that once I had one, I had to surrender it if I wound up leaving the country for an extended periods of time, or that the license would be invalid if I did not spend X amount of time in the country. I do acknowledge that there is some ambiguity on the matter, given what they say on their own website.

You have misunderstood my post; it's not about having to continue living in the country for t to remain valid, it's about Ireland having to be the usual place f residence at initial application stage (plus taking test, I believe). You acknowledge that this is stated on the RSA website; personally, I accord more significance to the statements which have been reviewed and approved for a public website than an absence of comments in a telephone conversation but YMMV.

The point for the OP's friend is not being able to drive but continuing validity of insurance. If a putatively invalid licence was used to obtain insurance, the insured would be open to a claim for counter indemnity from the insurer in the event if a payout. These are not commonplace; however, an insurer woud be more likely to seek recovery from someone with substantial assets - as might be evidenced by retaining a car in Ireland for a few weeks drive p er year or being willing to pay USD3k to insure such car. My comments are from a practical perspective and based on what I perceive to be their circumstances.

At no stage have I cast aspersions on your licence nor suggested that the comments are of general application.

vrusinov

I can understand why foreign driving license may be not recognized in country.
But I fail to understand how leaving county would affect somebody's driving skills.

ProudDUB

As far as I am aware, the application form for an Irish drivers license does not require the applicant to make an official declaration that they are a full time Irish resident. It just asks you to state your name and address. It does not ask you to state that you are living there at least 6 months of the year.

I am not aware of any process whereby an Irish license can become invalid after it has been issued, unless you appear before a judge in court for drunk driving, speeding or whatever, and he bans you from driving for X amount of time.

I don't know if you ever visit the Learning to Drive forum. One of the most frequently asked questions there is from learners asking if they get caught driving unaccompanied, will it void out their insurance if they are in an accident. Turns out it doesn't. The insurance companies have to operate under certain rules and regulations. They can not arbitrarily refuse to cover an accident claim, even if the driver was breaking the law when the accident happened. It may seem crazy, but thems the rules.

Given that, I am having a hard time seeing how an insurance company could refuse covering the OP's friend in the event of an accident, seeing as at no point in the license application process, are you made acknowledge that your license will be rendered invalid if you are not a full time resident when you apply for it. Nor does there seem to be a system in place where said license does ever become invalid if the holder was not or is not a full time Irish resident.

Marlow

ProudDUB wrote: »

Given that, I am having a hard time seeing how an insurance company could refuse covering the OP's friend in the event of an accident, seeing as at no point in the license application process, are you made acknowledge that your license will be rendered invalid if you are not a full time resident when you apply for it. Nor does there seem to be a system in place where said license does ever become invalid if the holder was not or is not a full time Irish resident.

The EU rules are quite simple, when it comes to driving licenses. You have to change license to the country, where you're resident, when your license expires (within the EU). This also automatically means, that if a license is issued to you, it will remain valid until it expires, no matter where your residence is. In the case of danish licenses, that's your 70th birthday. In the case of german licenses, that's never .. they have no expiry date.

The only problem there is with driving in Ireland is, when you have a non-EU license. Meaning for US, Canadian, NZ and AUS licenses, you have to change your license 1 year after you move to Ireland. I can however not see, that there would be a requirement to even do so, if you never reach the point of residency. I guess it's matter of interpretation.

These rules are quite clearly outlined on Citizens Information: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/exchanging_foreign_driving_permit.html

So, if that person doesn't stay here more than 12 months in a chunk and actually never gets to the point of residency, then he wouldn't even need an irish license.

/M

Marcusm

ProudDUB wrote: »

As far as I am aware, the application form for an Irish drivers license does not require the applicant to make an official declaration that they are a full time Irish resident. It just asks you to state your name and address. It does not ask you to state that you are living there at least 6 months of the year.

30 seconds spent on the RSA.ie website looking at the application form demonstrates that, unfortunately, your knowledge doesn't accord with the facts. The declaration which is signed includes this as the first statement.

I am not aware of any process whereby an Irish license can become invalid after it has been issued, unless you appear before a judge in court for drunk driving, speeding or whatever, and he bans you from driving for X amount of time.

A licence obtained through a false or incorrect declaration is invalid on its face; there is no need for a process as such. If it was ever brought to the attention of the competent authorities on a full disclosure basis, they would either have to ask for it to be surrendered or exercise discretion to deem it valid. I imagine that this discretion would absolutely be exercised in the case of someone who may have just missed fulfilling the residence citerion at intiial application but who has fulfilled it since. It's hard to see the basis on which it would be exercised for someone as in the original post, ie someone without close residential ties to Ireland and who has no requirement to be licensed here (as they have a valid overseas licence and are not here for greater than 12 months at a time or more than 183 days on any single occasion).

Whether this would ever come to anyone's attention is another matter; however, as the OP's friend is willing to pay bigbucks for insurance, I doubt they want concerns over invalidity.

I don't know if you ever visit the Learning to Drive forum. One of the most frequently asked questions there is from learners asking if they get caught driving unaccompanied, will it void out their insurance if they are in an accident. Turns out it doesn't. The insurance companies have to operate under certain rules and regulations. They can not arbitrarily refuse to cover an accident claim, even if the driver was breaking the law when the accident happened. It may seem crazy, but thems the rules.

You are misunderstanding my point, I did not say that the insurance was invalid. Quite the opposite, once a certificate is issued the insurance company are bound by it with respect to third parties even where it is obtained by wilful deception (which clearly would not be the case here). My piint was perhaps too subtle; where there is a misdeclaration to the insurer or a breach of the isuing conditions, many (if not most, if not all) insurers will have a right to recover any amounts paid out to third parties from the insured driver. It would not surprise me that this point is not made in the Learning to Drive forum as most of the individuals concerned there would not have significant assets from which an insurer could seek to recover. It sounds as if the OP's friend has significant assets and thus it would not be outside the bounds of possibility there.

Increasingly, insurers are taking a hard line (worldwide) and seeking to deny financial responsibility anywhere they can. Increasing automation and internet distribution has driven down premium income at a greater rate than costs. A greater focus on limiting claims and enforcing recoveries are experienced across many jurisdictions. Ireland is not unique and the experience of counter claims may not be as significant; however, the main players in the motor insurance market are the global majors and this will become important.

Given that, I am having a hard time seeing how an insurance company could refuse covering the OP's friend in the event of an accident, seeing as at no point in the license application process, are you made acknowledge that your license will be rendered invalid if you are not a full time resident when you apply for it. Nor does there seem to be a system in place where said license does ever become invalid if the holder was not or is not a full time Irish resident.

You don't have to be notified that it can be invalid if you are exhorted to make a correct declaration and are given (via note 2 to the form) plenty of information to enable you to make a decision as to whether your declaration is invalid; ie it should not be necessary to spoon feed an applicant or point out all the ramification of a misdeclaration (which incidentally is an RTA offence).

I have repeatedly stated that at no stage have I suggested that a valid licence becomes invalid if the person subsequently goes overseas or terminates his/her Irish residence.

By the way, I suspect that the number of people falling foul of this is tiny. That being said, I have asked a number of recent arrivals who did not have overseas licences but whom I knew wanted to learn to drive (given poor public transport infrastructure). Each of the three of them (not friends of each other) were aware that they had to be in Ireland for 6 months before applying for a driving licence.