Monastic existence in marriage

LegacyUser

I posted on the other thread 'no sex life' earlier in the week.

My situation is that both myself and my wife are 46/47.
Intimacy and frequency of sex has always been an issue - only peaking (at just over once a month) in a short burst of years when trying for kids.
At this stage everything seems to have completely wound down now going on 18 months or more.
I am wondering if there are any on the forum who are in this age range who can offer advice or observations on this situation.

Communication on this issue is always fraught with tension.
I'm afraid I've backed off since it seems to always end up in confrontation as my wife can become very defensive.
I find it very challenging since my coping strategy in the last while has been to numb any feelings of lustiness or desire for my wife since to do otherwise would just mean a lot of rejection and dissapointment.
I can see that this affects even breakfast time communication since I am communication with someone who I am living in the same house with but not having any physical relationship with, etc.
In general things are actually quite civil but I feel there is an undercurrent of frustration in me (how she is coping - I do not know - but I think she has much less need for intimacy based on our marital history).

Strangely.. right now I am not desperate for intimacy/sex/closeness.
However, I feel like one part of my existence is like Victor Meldrew as one poster put it.
Or a forty-seven year old with a sixty something physical lifestyle.
I've been silently accepting that maybe this is the end of the road in terms of sexuality in marriage and that maybe this is how it is for most marriages at this stage ...
I've not got many opportunities for affairs and to be honest I am too sensible to go down that route especially having 2 kids, etc.

sorry for rambling...

Cascading Waterfall

midfortiesguy wrote: »

I posted on the other thread 'no sex life' earlier in the week.

My situation is that both myself and my wife are 46/47.
Intimacy and frequency of sex has always been an issue - only peaking (at just over once a month) in a short burst of years when trying for kids.
At this stage everything seems to have completely wound down now going on 18 months or more.
I am wondering if there are any on the forum who are in this age range who can offer advice or observations on this situation.

Communication on this issue is always fraught with tension.
I'm afraid I've backed off since it seems to always end up in confrontation as my wife can become very defensive.
I find it very challenging since my coping strategy in the last while has been to numb any feelings of lustiness or desire for my wife since to do otherwise would just mean a lot of rejection and dissapointment.
I can see that this affects even breakfast time communication since I am communication with someone who I am living in the same house with but not having any physical relationship with, etc.
In general things are actually quite civil but I feel there is an undercurrent of frustration in me (how she is coping - I do not know - but I think she has much less need for intimacy based on our marital history).

Strangely.. right now I am not desperate for intimacy/sex/closeness.
However, I feel like one part of my existence is like Victor Meldrew as one poster put it.
Or a forty-seven year old with a sixty something physical lifestyle.
I've been silently accepting that maybe this is the end of the road in terms of sexuality in marriage and that maybe this is how it is for most marriages at this stage ...
I've not got many opportunities for affairs and to be honest I am too sensible to go down that route especially having 2 kids, etc.

sorry for rambling...

Write the above in a letter and give it to her. Let the chips fall where they may.

Aseth

OP, tbh I don't really know what kind of a 'new' answer you are expecting here. Your story is sad and complicated but at the end of the day if you want to change your life - it all lies with and within you. Only you can decide to leave or stay and either maintain status quo or try to make a change.
Ultimately you are nearing 50 - do you give up and continue with your life hoping your children won't find out how unhappy you are? Do you think they know? Do they have an opinion on this situation?
Or you can leave hoping to find new love and life - after all 50 is not 100, you are still relatively young.
This all has been written before but only you can make a decision.

LegacyUser

Aseth : Your input is good and well worth taking on board.
The kids are literally that, 13, 11.
There are other complicating factors - employment/location and disparity in income and employment between myself and wife.
My wife has the upper hand in that respect but being the breadwinner means she has more pressure and probably guilt regarding not being there for the kids as much as other mothers might be, etc.
The children probably sense I am unhappy or unfulfilled in some way but it would be entirely inappropriate for them to know the full reasons given their ages...

I have a lot to lose by fleeing the nest and , to be honest it isn't a very practical solution at the moment.
One of my children is about to start secondary school in the autumn and I am very conscious of the importance of being around as a role model.
However, by the same token I am worried that I am not a good role model as someone who is internally miserable being trapped in a sort of marriage of convenience, as such.
I am realistic that other folks who have lots of pressures and advancing middle age also probably struggle with relationship issues.

blatantrereg

Put some effort into trying to seduce her. Go on a date or even a night or two away. If she responds positively then try to engage her in the same sort of way when you want intimacy. Even if it only worked in an immediate sense, where she only wanted when you actually had some sort of date set-up, it would still be a huge improvement on your current situation.

If she responds negatively then try to open a sincere dialogue with her about it. She would be more likely to at least talk about it without being defensive in that situation.

I agree that you shouldn't rule out the possibility of leaving her if you're unhappy. I wouldn't mention that too soon though if you would rather improve things with her. Something to bring up only if and when you're ready to do it. If you want things to work with her then I wouldn't think about it before trying positive approaches.

Cascading Waterfall

Op I think you just need to tell her the lack of sex is making you miserable and ask her to make an effort or go to relationship counselling. If she doesn't agree then I'd tell her that I'm going to have to find sex elsewhere, I can't live without sex. I wouldn't leave the home, I'd stay and simply find other women to have sex with and be completely honest about it with your wife.

Faith

midfortiesguy wrote: »

One of my children is about to start secondary school in the autumn and I am very conscious of the importance of being around as a role model.
However, by the same token I am worried that I am not a good role model as someone who is internally miserable being trapped in a sort of marriage of convenience, as such.
I am realistic that other folks who have lots of pressures and advancing middle age also probably struggle with relationship issues.

If your children were adults, and one approached you and told you that his marriage was sexless and he was desperately unhappy, what would you advise him to do?

A good role model is one who's happy in their life. You're not doing your kids any favours by staying, to be honest. What you're teaching them is that it's okay for a marriage to be unhappy and seemingly loveless, and that they should stay in that situation rather than take control and leave.

If your kids grow up and end up in similar situations as you, will you think you've done the right thing by staying? Or do they stand to benefit more from having a happy, healthy father, possibly in a fulfilling and satisfying relationship, who doesn't live with them but shows them that happiness is always available if you chase it?

My parents stayed together despite my mum regularly wanting to leave my dad. It didn't do me any favours. I'm in my mid-20's now, they're still together and I think now, as I actually did as a child, that they'd both have been better off splitting up years ago.

username123

If you are unhappy in life then you are the one responsible for changing it. Saying that you are staying for the kids is just an excuse. Any kid I know who has parents who stayed in desperately unhappy marriages say they would have preferred if the parents had split up and then they might have had a chance of one happy parent. I include myself in that - my parents should have split up instead of destroying each other and the rest of us.

You are only in your 40s. Probably only half way through your life. The truth is, change is hard. The devil you know and all that. Well no one is gonna thank you for being a martyr and suffering on manfully for "the kids" - least of all the kids.

This aint no dress rehearsal, this is it, we are on stage right now, live show - no chances to do it over - if you are not happy with your lot, change it.

StillWaters

It is difficult to know what to advise you, but I would say that this would not be the norm in this age group. Of course with time and age frequency will wane, but most of those I know in this age group continue to have active and fulfilling sex lives.

It seems as a couple you never really had an active and fulfilling sex life to start with and now you really do have a decision to make. I assume you have discussed this with your wife, and she is refusing to investigate a physical cause for the lack of sex drive or to simply make more of an effort. You will have to accept the sexual aspect of your marriage is over, or you will have to end your marriage.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the various replies.

StillWaters : Your perspective on similar age group is informative.
Mind you - how do you get a sense that other couples of this age range in your circle are still "active" to coin a phrase ?
I've not ever been in company where anyone has been able to reveal that card other than by possible inuendo and seeing the chemistry between a couple when they are out and about, etc.

A long while back (maybe 14 or so years ago) I tried to subtly confide that things weren't all too rosy to a male friend and he was very uncomfortable with wanting to even give acknowledgement to that. I am guessing he felt it was a personal issue between me and my wife and probably crossed the line in terms of "too much information", etc.
I respected that at the time - so I tended to bottle this issue up over the years.
Trying to raise it with my wife is really tricky.
It seriously feels as if she needs to be in control and that is a subject which is not really up for discussion.
There never seems to be a good time to bring it up other than by creating a crisis.
A lot of the time she gives off the sense that she is oppressed by work, stress even though she seems to thrive on same.
I've often wondered if making herself uber-busy is part of a protection to keep up the un-aired excuse of not being in the mood - ever.
It is a vicious circle because I'm just retreating to a sort of asexual corner where I really have built no expectation at all of intimacy of any kind -even affectionate hugs.

I have to a large extent given up on trying to figure out the reasons.
In the past I pondered if there was something abusive or cultural behind it.
I've become a little more convinced in recent times that it may be a personality issue.
I've come across passive-aggressive behaviour disorder on the net and a lot of the behaviours ring true.
Being sullen/victim , being selectively forgetful, procrastination and having no clear need for regular intimacy.

At this stage it isn't the lack of sex which is the big issue for me.
It is the feeling that things aren't even stephen and that she appears to want to hold all the cards and be oblivious to what must be obvious to her in terms of any couple's basic needs.

December2012

Do you

A) want to leave your wife?

Or

want to have sex with your wife?

Tony Ripe

midfortiesguy wrote: »

Thanks for the various replies.

StillWaters : Your perspective on similar age group is informative.
Mind you - how do you get a sense that other couples of this age range in your circle are still "active" to coin a phrase ?
I've not ever been in company where anyone has been able to reveal that card other than by possible inuendo and seeing the chemistry between a couple when they are out and about, etc.

A long while back (maybe 14 or so years ago) I tried to subtly confide that things weren't all too rosy to a male friend and he was very uncomfortable with wanting to even give acknowledgement to that. I am guessing he felt it was a personal issue between me and my wife and probably crossed the line in terms of "too much information", etc.
I respected that at the time - so I tended to bottle this issue up over the years.
Trying to raise it with my wife is really tricky.
It seriously feels as if she needs to be in control and that is a subject which is not really up for discussion.
There never seems to be a good time to bring it up other than by creating a crisis.
A lot of the time she gives off the sense that she is oppressed by work, stress even though she seems to thrive on same.
I've often wondered if making herself uber-busy is part of a protection to keep up the un-aired excuse of not being in the mood - ever.
It is a vicious circle because I'm just retreating to a sort of asexual corner where I really have built no expectation at all of intimacy of any kind -even affectionate hugs.

I have to a large extent given up on trying to figure out the reasons.
In the past I pondered if there was something abusive or cultural behind it.
I've become a little more convinced in recent times that it may be a personality issue.
I've come across passive-aggressive behaviour disorder on the net and a lot of the behaviours ring true.
Being sullen/victim , being selectively forgetful, procrastination and having no clear need for regular intimacy.

At this stage it isn't the lack of sex which is the big issue for me.
It is the feeling that things aren't even stephen and that she appears to want to hold all the cards and be oblivious to what must be obvious to her in terms of any couple's basic needs.

Why would you let her have power over you? Draw your personal boundaries and don't let her treat you like crap. If her behaviour is out of line let her know.

StillWaters

You are going to have to decide if you are willing to live the rest of your life in a sexless marriage. It doesn't sound like she will change. In fact she hasn't changed. It was like this even pre children. It is you who has changed the goal posts.

It sounds a very lonely marriage for you and you sound like a man who no longer has any love left for his wife.

Staying for the sake of children is a load of crock. If you decide to stay at least be honest about your reasons for so doing, and don't pile your martyrdom on your children's heads.

daisybelle2008

OP 14 years ago you were trying to confide in a friend about this? You married someone who has little interest in sex with you and yet you went on to have two children. Sex issue aside you seem insecure and dependent on your wife. Did ye both marry each other for security and a family? Because you were afraid you wouldn't meet someone else.?. At some point you decided to get married and have children despite there being no sexual intimacy. As the poster above said now you have changed the goalposts.
And I agree with that poster also that now you want to shift the burden for staying onto your children. You really need to be honest and true to yourself. All this internet diagnosing of your wife's personality :rolleyes: is just time wasting nonsense and trying to shift blame and responsibility. Just look at your own role and behaviour. It is very duplicitous, even though you would like to think your wife's personality and your martyrdom to your children are the reasons you are in this situation, that is not the case. You stayed from the beginning despite your needs not being met, you need to answer honestly why YOU did that?. Why not be more honest with yourself and say you have always been to fearful and insecure to leave? If you address your fear and insecurity you will make better decisions for yourself.

LegacyUser

Daisybelle makes some very good points as sore as those are to hear.

I've definitely put the majority of the blame on myself and realise I have a lot of introspection to do in terms of my own complicity in all of this.
However, in terms of marrying someone who had "little interest in sex with me" - that would be a big oversimplification.
The courtship and first year of marriage good in this respect and there weren't any major red flags.
However, detecting that things had changed wasn't easy.
In retrospect I think I was too soft in terms of bringing the issue to the table as to challenging or calmly chatting about why things had slipped into a case of avoidance of intimacy.
Shortly after that confiding in a friend things did resume leading up to the conception of our first child.
That sudden interest in being intimate was definitely down to my wife being very anxious to have a child - but I only can see that now.

I have to admit that the resumed interest after a long drought just bowled me over and I wasn't in a situation where I could see the big picture that sex had become very much a focus on babymaking for her.
When you are with someone you love , at least for me, I do give the benefit of the doubt a lot and also I couldn't be over cynical as to whether the intimacy was all tied to a campaign to conceive rather than as part of an ongoing physical affection.

Naturally most "gentlemen" do give their partner a lot of leeway to recover when the children are very young and that's why I left things stagnate for a long time after the 2 children were born.


Again thank you daisybelle (and others) for the points you have raised.
There is very little to disagree with in what you have said.

IHeartShoes

Hi there, just wanted to say I found your post both upsetting and compelling. I am of a similar age to you and what you describe is not typical for this age group (early forties onward) given mine and my friends' experiences. We tend to chat about such things. Sex lives don't wane at this point, rather the opposite. Again, in my experience, if marriages get to the stage yours is at they end rather than commit two people to lives of abject misery.

As for your children, I think the popular thinking on that is that they prefer to come from a broken home than be raised in one.

You deserve to be happy and enjoy life rather than simply exist. Its well documented on different threads here that it is better be alone than in the wrong relationship and something I can speak to.

I hope you make the right decision for you - be brave. The very best of luck no matter what you decide.

S

LegacyUser

Thank you for the very kind words IHeartShoes.

Part of my problem has been that I've tried to make too much allowance for this situation now and in the past.

Even as I read what you say about this not being in the norm for our age group I go back to other stuff I've read which lets my wife off the hook.
I end up projecting that I am wrong to be internally upset about lack of intimacy in marriage.
While I think about what could be I also remain philosophical and thankful that we have 2 healthy bright children and I put it in my head that maybe most couples are like this.

What happens over time is that the man who had a sense of "fire in the belly" and general good humour becomes worn down and starts to believe that he can exist by being asexual to accomodate a partner who is, in effect asexual.
The worrying bit is that it starts to have a big effect on my general wellbeing and confidence - affecting work performance and motivation and general demeanour.
Even when a good looking woman appears on the TV I suppress any emotion regarding any natural attractiveness that I am seeing.
It is as if I've shut off this whole section of my existence to try to remain in some imagined equilibrium with a partner who I mustn't be compatible with in terms of an ongoing physical and emotional relationship....

IHeartShoes

Hi again, It certainly does happen in some relationships and I have seen anecdotal evidence to suggest this, but it really does not relate to ‘most couples’. My friends (male and female) are an open and articulate group of people and we discuss our sex lives quite happily. None live a life like yours. We are not some happy-clappy bunch of nirvana dwelling people either. Some of us are separated and divorced so we haven’t found the secret to ‘happy ever after’. But if something is not working in a marriage and there is some kind of disconnect for whatever reason, we tackle it, try to resolve it and if that is not possible after every effort and some time elapsing, then we move on, with great regret in some cases. I really don’t want to make you feel worse about your situation because it seems to me that you have convinced yourself of some things in order to justify your life with your wife but it is not normal or even a little bit acceptable. I can’t imagine what that kind of rejection does to a person on a daily basis. Of course it will affect your confidence and well being and bleed into all aspects of your life. I would worry for your health long term, being so repressed and unhappy.

Maybe your wife is asexual or maybe she has some deep seated issues she has never dealt with but you can’t control that. You can only control what you do now. I don’t really understand why you are repressing everything good about yourself to accommodate someone else’s limited existence. You could consider finding an accredited counsellor or psychotherapist to talk through things with?

I hope the above doesn’t sound critical or that I am judging you. I don’t mean to but I can’t ignore the misplaced justification that this is what ‘most couples’ arrive at in their forties, it is not.

Emme

OP, I think your wife is being selfish and I am speaking as a woman. You seem to have given her every chance and are living a half-life as a result. Have you spoken to your wife about how you feel? Would she be happy for you to have an open marriage where you stay together as husband and wife but you (with her permission) have sexual partners outside of the marriage. It isn't an ideal arrangement but life isn't ideal. You would have to be honest and upfront with any sexual partners you might have outside the marriage and use protection at all times.

daisybelle2008

midfortiesguy wrote: »

It is as if I've shut off this whole section of my existence to try to remain in some imagined equilibrium with a partner who I mustn't be compatible with in terms of an ongoing physical and emotional relationship....

Staying in a relationship with someone who doesn't want to have sex and an emotional relationship with you is very hard work to keep justifying to yourself. It requires a lot of repression, denial, misplaced blame, excuses and sweeping it under the carpet.
OP maybe you are just not ready or never will be to deal with it head on, but you own that responsibility.

Aseth

IHeartShoes wrote: »

You could consider finding an accredited counsellor or psychotherapist to talk through things with?

I have to agree here with IHeartShoes: if you find it hard to make a decision(whatever it would be) you should definitely talk to a counselor. They are qualified professionals and will be able to help. Also just the fact of talking to someone about it might be quite therapeutic.

tara73

OP, just wanted to add you sound like a real nice guy, very reflected and you can analyze the situation very vivid from both points of view, from your wifes point and your point, not that many people are able to do that.

so I think the critics here are a bit harsh on you.

I think your wife is being very selfish, and as you described, the passive agressive behaviour might be correct.

People suggest to have a talk with her, but you already said you tried it many times and she always gets upset.
I don't know your personality, just from reading your post, but is there a possibility you are not determined enough? you have to stand up for yourself (in life in general), otherwise people will walk all over you and you'll never get a thing in life.

maybe try and talk to her for one last time, as an adult, tell her you want to clear this and also at this stage you can give an ultimatum as well, if nothing changes, you have to consider consequences.

prepare what you want to say, what's very important to you. try not to blame her, it will lead again to her becoming defensive, just tell her what is important to you and what you wish for.
writing it down beforehand is a good method to reflect too.

all the best

Jimmy 5F

OP write everything you've said here in a letter and give it to her to read.

LegacyUser

OP your thread struck a cord with me and I felt I should try to respond.
You sound like a really genuine good man who loves his family and puts them first.
I was in your shoes (I am a woman) years ago and I too put my family first. This meant that for years I put up with a bedroom problem in my marriage that was like a big giant elephant in the room.
I am in my 40s and when I married I was of a generation where sex was not really discussed and as a couple we had little or no sexual experience prior to marriage.
However I grew up knowing that affection and love go hand in hand, I had no big hang ups and I assumed that once married that affection and sex would be a regular thing.
How wrong was I!! Once the babymaking years were over my husband was cold and distant in a physical sense. He was a great Dad but so wrapped up in himself and unaffectionate that the passive aggressive behaviour took hold and it slowly ate up our marriage.

Sex is only a small part of a marriage but when it's absent it becomes HUGE.
As a couple we became detached from one another. When we bickered we had no way of making it up to each other and we were both very stressed constantly. Little passive aggressive things took up too much energy and we lost the focus of our marriage. We became less forgiving to each other with little things and lived like brother and sister.
If I could advise you to do one thing it would be to go to a counsellor TOGETHER. You and your wife need support and advice. My husband went with me to a counsellor, and I also went alone and I eventually realized that he had hang ups from his childhood that made it impossible for him to show love by cuddles and affection.
Please ask your wife to go with you to a counsellor. My husband and I did split after 25 years, and it was a very painful process. I would say I tried everything to save my marriage. He recovered very quickly from the split and this was because he had never really given himself fully into the marriage, he was detached for many years already! Yet I had hung on sleeping for years in a bed looking at his cold back night after night. He is still a great father and after we split he told me he had done everything for me.......he to this day cannot see that a monastic existence is not a normal natural existence for a marriage!He was the perfect brother instead of being my lover and husband.
I am sorry for talking all about me , but please ask your wife to go to a counsellor with you.
Everyone deserves love and affection so TELL her in front of a professional that you want changes.

LegacyUser

Many thanks Tulip21 for the very candid and frank account of your own personal situation and history and your advice.
I recognise a lot of my situation in what you have described with regards to your ex.

I think around 2002/2003 or so (which is now almost a decade ago) I did raise the idea of couples counselling (together) but my wife was very hostile to that idea.
I fear to bring it up again as I already know the answer and her potential reaction.
It seemed like a line in the sand was drawn in which I shouldn't ever cross.

It seems the only way to draw any real attention to this is by trying to bring the issue to a crisis or ultimatum.
Therein lies the crux - an ultimatum brings pressure - you should never go to bed on an argument and all that.

In the fog of all that has gone on throughout the years I somehow remember her asking me to give an ultimatum.
However, it was mixed signals and maybe she knew I wouldn't dare.
I think like in your case the partner who avoids intimacy is (most of time) oblivious to the effect it is having on the other partner and is happy to maintain the status quo and sweep the elephant in the room under the carpet.

I've tried the "writing it all down in a letter" approach before and it was also rebuked.
She made me feel small , even though the words were carefully chosen -- and to her it seemed like a begging letter from a pathetic man.

I agree with other posters as well.
The decision and what to do very much lies with me.

miamee

OP, from what you have written so far on this, you have tried your best to talk this out with your wife, suggested counselling, and presumably in earlier days tried to seduce and/or romance your wife to see if anything worked. It didn't. You have been met with the same response at every turn. No one can say that you haven't made the best effort you possibly could to make this work from what you have said.

What it all seems to boil down to now is either:

a) You can live the rest of your life with no sex, affection or intimacy and suppress that side of your life and all the needs that come with it - if you are in your forties, that could be another 30+ years - longer than you have put up with it so far!

b) You don't live the rest of your life with no sex, affection or intimacy. You walk away from that situation with your wife and you begin to make a new life for yourself where you can express your feelings freely without fear of being belittled or made to feel pathetic. You hopefully meet a woman who will meet all of your needs for love, sex and affection, as you will meet hers. It's not a foregone conclusion that you will meet someone - but you'll never meet someone while going through the motions in a dead marriage. You are still off-limits to most women who might otherwise be interested in you but wouldn't dream of pursuing a married man.

Jimmy 5F

midfortiesguy wrote: »

Many thanks Tulip21 for the very candid and frank account of your own personal situation and history and your advice.
I recognise a lot of my situation in what you have described with regards to your ex.

I think around 2002/2003 or so (which is now almost a decade ago) I did raise the idea of couples counselling (together) but my wife was very hostile to that idea.
I fear to bring it up again as I already know the answer and her potential reaction.
It seemed like a line in the sand was drawn in which I shouldn't ever cross.

It seems the only way to draw any real attention to this is by trying to bring the issue to a crisis or ultimatum.
Therein lies the crux - an ultimatum brings pressure - you should never go to bed on an argument and all that.

In the fog of all that has gone on throughout the years I somehow remember her asking me to give an ultimatum.
However, it was mixed signals and maybe she knew I wouldn't dare.
I think like in your case the partner who avoids intimacy is (most of time) oblivious to the effect it is having on the other partner and is happy to maintain the status quo and sweep the elephant in the room under the carpet.

I've tried the "writing it all down in a letter" approach before and it was also rebuked.
She made me feel small , even though the words were carefully chosen -- and to her it seemed like a begging letter from a pathetic man.

I agree with other posters as well.
The decision and what to do very much lies with me.

You know what you have to do, you only live once, don't waste it being miserable.