Leap card coming to Cork in 2014

namloc1980

Leap Card for Cork

Should help towards dragging the city's transport into the 21st century.

becost

Don't you need to have an integrated transport system first or have things improved in the years I've been away?

namloc1980

becost wrote: »

Don't you need to have an integrated transport system first or have things improved in the years I've been away?

What kind of integrated system?

becost

It currently operates in Dublin where they have Buses, Luas, Dart, Suburban and Intercity Trains. Can't see it being of much use to anyone other than users of the Cobh and Midleton railway lines. Actually, when I first saw the headline, I thought it was aimed at Cork people that commute up and down to Dublin.

wandatowell

They would wanna sort out the ticketing machine in Midleton before introducing the flipping Leap card down here.


You cant (unless I'm completely blind) buy a single ticket to Cork. There's simply no option for a single. I've asked two train drivers and they both said "Sure get a return to Fota, its the same price as return to Cork"


Fair point I guess but its stupid to be dealing with that crap nowadays.


I said it in the main ticketing office in Cork and all I got was a shrug.

namloc1980

becost wrote: »

It currently operates in Dublin where they have Buses, Luas, Dart, Suburban and Intercity Trains. Can't see it being of much use to anyone other than users of the Cobh and Midleton railway lines.

It's cheaper than cash fares, that's useful. It reduces dwell times at bus stops as no need for passengers and drivers to be fumbling with change, that's useful. It will have transfer rebates i.e. where a journey requires a bus transfer you won't have to pay two full fares, that's useful. Private operators can also sign up for it, that's useful.

namloc1980

wandatowell wrote: »

They would wanna sort out the ticketing machine in Midleton before introducing the flipping Leap card down here.


You cant (unless I'm completely blind) buy a single ticket to Cork. There's simply no option for a single. I've asked two train drivers and they both said "Sure get a return to Fota, its the same price as return to Cork"


Fair point I guess but its stupid to be dealing with that crap nowadays.


I said it in the main ticketing office in Cork and all I got was a shrug.

Used Midleton only last weekend and bought a single to Cork. You need to have a closer look.

wandatowell

namloc1980 wrote: »

Used Midleton only last weekend bought a single to Cork. You need to have a closer look.

Maybe her shrug meant that she was gonna sort it out for me.


Either way it got sorted. Best news ever

becost

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's cheaper than cash fares, that's useful. It reduces dwell times at bus stops as no need for passengers and drivers to be fumbling with change, that's useful. It will have transfer rebates i.e. where a journey requires a bus transfer you won't have to pay two full fares, that's useful. Private operators can also sign up for it, that's useful.

True but I think they should concentrate on developing a better transport system in Cork first. It has the population to support more suburban rail lines and a couple of Luas lines within the city as well.

namloc1980

becost wrote: »

True but I think they should concentrate on developing a better transport system in Cork first. It has the population to support more suburban rail lines and a couple of Luas lines within the city as well.

There's just no budget for those things at the moment. Anyway a feasibility study was done for a Cork luas in 2011 and found it would cost over €1bn and would not be feasible until the south docklands was substantially developed. Getting a decent ticketing setup is a huge step forward and will go someway to improving the transport experience in Cork.

Ludo

becost wrote: »

True but I think they should concentrate on developing a better transport system in Cork first. It has the population to support more suburban rail lines and a couple of Luas lines within the city as well.

No it doesn't. It would be empty most of the day.

CHealy

wandatowell wrote: »

I said it in the main ticketing office in Cork and all I got was a shrug.

I've worked in that train station, and believe me when I say this, they are the biggest most ignorant group of people who work in that place. I've never seen the likes of it.

becost

Ludo wrote: »

No it doesn't. It would be empty most of the day.

What an enlightening and informative post.

TINA1984

CHealy wrote: »

I've worked in that train station, and believe me when I say this, they are the biggest most ignorant group of people who work in that place. I've never seen the likes of it.

Someone was mean to us on the internet, STRIKE!

wandatowell

TINA1984 wrote: »

Someone was mean to us on the internet, STRIKE!

tbh from my experiences staff in the ticketing office are grand but I only ever complained once and all I got was a shrugg

Ludo

becost wrote: »

What an enlightening and informative post.

It is as informative as saying Cork has the population to support more rail line and a couple of luas lines. I simply disagree that it does.

becost

Ludo wrote: »

It is as informative as saying Cork has the population to support more rail line and a couple of luas lines. I simply disagree that it does.

I'd say you disagree with a lot of things. Why don't you explain your point rather than just making contrary statements.

KCAccidental

BRT would be good in the medium term, which could be upgraded to Light Rail in the future if needed.

the cost of building more heavy suburban rail would be huge, so that's a no go outside of building one or two stations on the existing line.

Leap card is a step forward though, it will actually suit our city network as that is 95% flat fare unlike DB which uses stages. Hopefully they'll be proactive with using the technology to enable transfer fares.

Ludo

becost wrote: »

I'd say you disagree with a lot of things. Why don't you explain your point rather than just making contrary statements.

Cos the simple point is that cork is not big enough to warrant that kind of cost to build it all and there wouldn't be the demand. Is that difficult to understand? Not sure how much simpler I can make it for you. You disagree and that is fine but you seem unable to grasp the opposite to your original assertion that cork is big enough.
Where were all the details in your post outlining why all that money should be spent. Oh yeah. There weren't any.

becost

Ludo wrote: »

Cos the simple point is that cork is not big enough to warrant that kind of cost to build it all and there wouldn't be the demand. Is that difficult to understand? Not sure how much simpler I can make it for you. You disagree and that is fine but you seem unable to grasp the opposite to your original assertion that cork is big enough.
Where were all the details in your post outlining why all that money should be spent. Oh yeah. There weren't any.

You've got the wrong end of the stick altogether. I want you to elaborate, not simplify.

You're contradicting yourself as well. First you said Cork wouldn't have enough people and now your saying it cost too much.

KCAccidental

becost wrote: »

Your contradicting yourself as well. First you said Cork wouldn't have enough people and now your saying it cost too much.

those things are linked of course. Due to there not being enough population those projects would be unable to pay for themselves over time and therefore cost too much to build!

becost

KCAccidental wrote: »

those things are linked of course. Due to there not being enough population those projects would be unable to pay for themselves over time and therefore cost too much to build!

There are several cities in Europe smaller than Cork with light rail systems. People said the Luas would be loss making and it's a roaring success. People said that Dublin Bikes would be a flop and plans to triple it's size have just been announced. People said a "Cork Bikes" was not feasible but that's happening. Years ago, the government were reluctant to invest in railway in Cork. When they finally invested in new trains on the Cork to Cobh line, numbers increased fourfold. I'm not sure about Cork to Midleton but I'd imagine it's not doing too bad. If you build the infrastructure, people will use it. Regarding the cost of these projects, the government seem to find the money for these types of projects in the greater Dublin area pretty easily. The Luas green line was recently extended into the foothills of the Dublin mountains at a cost of several hundred millions and some of the stops on the extension are literally in the middle of a field with a single digit of users a day using these stops (usually hikers). And the extension of the green line to Broom bridge on the north side of Dublin at a cost of another few hundred millions has just been announced. I'm not sure if anyone on here is familiar with Broom bridge but I've used it quite a lot myself over the last number of years and it must be the most under utilized, run down and vandalized train station in the country with sweet FA users. http://homepage.eircom.net/~tulips/foto/stat-broombridge-01.jpg
Most of the times I've used it, I've been the only person at the station (if you want to call it a station. It's more like a metal bus shelter). People seem to forget as well that Cork had trams 100 years ago! The reason they were done away with was to make way for roads as the use of the motor car was on the increase and the size and population of Cork are a substantially larger now than in 1900. But hey, if Cork people want to believe that their city is not deserving of a modern public transport system and would prefer to live in the dark ages, who am I to disagree. Maybe for the Cork bikes scheme we can get the city council to use these:

KCAccidental

The problem with comparing Ireland to Continental Europe with regards to transport is that taxes are higher and government funding is so much larger. Another issue is that Public transport is mostly governed at regional level in Federal government system. This can sometimes mean that smaller cities benefit from more funding due to their importance in the region as opposed to a national level. Neither of these things happen in Ireland and you have to take that into account when discussing public transport in Cork, we are just not that important to the national interest it seems.

It sucks to have to sound like a stick in the mud, I would love for Cork to have a modern, efficient system, but that is the reality in this country. If the government turned around and used more tax money for public transport a lot of the electorate would kick up a major stink. Just look at the opposition in rural areas to Metro North and Dart Underground in Dublin and national reaction to infrastructure that is future-proofed like T2 in Dublin airport.

I already made the point that it wouldn't take tram lines and building new heavy rail to improve the system in Cork. Bus Rapid Transport on a semi traffic separated line from the big suburbs to the city centre would be much, much cheaper and a better fit, plus it would give flexibility to upgrade to light rail if demanded in the future. Couple this with some more conventional bus routes with the regularity of the 205 & 208 running on green routes and you have an excellent system in Cork.

btw I thought Cork Bikes wasn't happening anytime soon? have you heard something else? would love to have it here... I agree that that is one big gap we presently have in the city.

becost

KCAccidental wrote: »

The problem with comparing Ireland to Continental Europe with regards to transport is that taxes are higher and government funding is so much larger. Another issue is that Public transport is mostly governed at regional level in Federal government system. This can sometimes mean that smaller cities benefit from more funding due to their importance in the region as opposed to a national level. Neither of these things happen in Ireland and you have to take that into account when discussing public transport in Cork, we are just not that important to the national interest it seems.

It sucks to have to sound like a stick in the mud, I would love for Cork to have a modern, efficient system, but that is the reality in this country. If the government turned around and used more tax money for public transport a lot of the electorate would kick up a major stink. Just look at the opposition in rural areas to Metro North and Dart Underground in Dublin and national reaction to infrastructure that is future-proofed like T2 in Dublin airport.

I already made the point that it wouldn't take tram lines and building new heavy rail to improve the system in Cork. Bus Rapid Transport on a semi traffic separated line from the big suburbs to the city centre would be much, much cheaper and a better fit, plus it would give flexibility to upgrade to light rail if demanded in the future. Couple this with some more conventional bus routes with the regularity of the 205 & 208 running on green routes and you have an excellent system in Cork.

btw I thought Cork Bikes wasn't happening anytime soon? have you heard something else? would love to have it here... I agree that that is one big gap we presently have in the city.

I wasn't aware of a rural opposition to the Metro, Underground and T2 but we all know that the priority is in the greater Dublin area. I know there was the suggestion of a BRT system in Cork a few years ago as opposed to a light rail system but that's just the government not willing to invest rather than the actual suitability and viability of a Luas type transport system in Cork which would undoubtedly be successful. But yeah, Bus Eireann should definitely work on developing an efficient and functional local bus network as a necessity. Incidentally, the local bus network in Cork is controlled largely by Bus Eireann head office on Amien street in Dublin! Pretty sure I read the Cork bikes scheme will be operational from the start of 2014...

murphym7

becost wrote: »

You've got the wrong end of the stick altogether. I want you to elaborate, not simplify.

You're contradicting yourself as well. First you said Cork wouldn't have enough people and now your saying it cost too much.

Cork does not have the population to support this AND it will cost too much. I am not going to write a dissertation on it, before you ask. Further elaboration not required. Pretty simple concept to understand:

Population too small + Too expensive = Not a good idea

OR

Population too small + Too expensive = Vanity project

See, easy!;)

namloc1980

becost wrote: »

There are several cities in Europe smaller than Cork with light rail systems. People said the Luas would be loss making and it's a roaring success. People said that Dublin Bikes would be a flop and plans to triple it's size have just been announced. People said a "Cork Bikes" was not feasible but that's happening. Years ago, the government were reluctant to invest in railway in Cork. When they finally invested in new trains on the Cork to Cobh line, numbers increased fourfold. I'm not sure about Cork to Midleton but I'd imagine it's not doing too bad. If you build the infrastructure, people will use it. Regarding the cost of these projects, the government seem to find the money for these types of projects in the greater Dublin area pretty easily. The Luas green line was recently extended into the foothills of the Dublin mountains at a cost of several hundred millions and some of the stops on the extension are literally in the middle of a field with a single digit of users a day using these stops (usually hikers). And the extension of the green line to Broom bridge on the north side of Dublin at a cost of another few hundred millions has just been announced. I'm not sure if anyone on here is familiar with Broom bridge but I've used it quite a lot myself over the last number of years and it must be the most under utilized, run down and vandalized train station in the country with sweet FA users. http://homepage.eircom.net/~tulips/foto/stat-broombridge-01.jpg
Most of the times I've used it, I've been the only person at the station (if you want to call it a station. It's more like a metal bus shelter). People seem to forget as well that Cork had trams 100 years ago! The reason they were done away with was to make way for roads as the use of the motor car was on the increase and the size and population of Cork are a substantially larger now than in 1900. But hey, if Cork people want to believe that their city is not deserving of a modern public transport system and would prefer to live in the dark ages, who am I to disagree. Maybe for the Cork bikes scheme we can get the city council to use these:

A viability study was done on a light rail system for Cork in 2010/2011 and it was found to be not viable for at least 20 years or more. A BRT was found to be viable from Ballincollig to Kent with future extension to Docklands and Mahon Point upon the development of Docklands and the construction of a new bridge down stream. But before all that we need realtime info (which we have now), smartcard fares (on the way in 2014), new city traffic plan to prioritize public transport (on the way in 2014) etc. The attitude that just because Dublin has it we should have it smacks of second city inferiority.

becost

namloc1980 wrote: »

A viability study was done on a light rail system for Cork in 2010/2011 and it was found to be not viable for at least 20 years or more. A BRT was found to be viable from Ballincollig to Kent with future extension to Docklands and Mahon Point upon the development of Docklands and the construction of a new bridge down stream. But before all that we need realtime info (which we have now), smartcard fares (on the way in 2014), new city traffic plan to prioritize public transport (on the way in 2014) etc. The attitude that just because Dublin has it we should have it smacks of second city inferiority.

Seeing as I'm not originally from Cork and don't live there anymore, how can I be suffering from this second city syndrome plus that's a mildly derogatory phrase usually used by Dubs about Cork people! I don't care if you all commute around the city on space hoppers. And who commissioned this viability study? A government reluctant to invest in transport infrastructure outside it's capital city? Even without the redeveloped docklands, a light rail line from Rochestown to Ballincollig taking in MP, Blackrock, City Center, UCC, Victoria Cross, CUH, CIT and all the suburbs in between couldn't possibly fail, that is unless people boycotted it for some bizarre reason but I know from living in Cork for many years that there are plenty of backwards people whose behavior and mentality just leaves you scratching your head. But some great people there as well. Just harder to find!

who_me

I've never really understood the attraction of trams/light rail anyway. Instead of trams, why not use buses which don't require the installation of rails, traffic control lights; and are far more flexible (line can't be blocked by one mechanical failure, no engineering costs to adding new routes, buses can be moved to other routes, trams can't). Instead of light rail, why not a two-lane bus route? Is it a 'trams are stylish and European' thing? Are they significantly cheaper to run?

That said, it does seem a bit odd that the greater Dublin area is big enough to warrant DART, Luas and possibly DART underground & Metro services in addition to the bus & rail links; while the greater Cork area has just the bus & rail. Other than the obvious "Dublin is bigger, so it gets several transport options, Cork is smaller so it gets none", does anyone have access to any hard figures for this? How large does the population need to be to support additional transport services? How much daily traffic does there need to be on a given line?

After all, at most Cork would ever get just one line: Bishopstown (with possible future expansion to Ballincollig) to Mahon, via the city centre; and there's a readily available route for the Eastern half of that route which would surely alleviate the costs.

becost

who_me wrote: »

I've never really understood the attraction of trams/light rail anyway. Instead of trams, why not use buses which don't require the installation of rails, traffic control lights; and are far more flexible (line can't be blocked by one mechanical failure, no engineering costs to adding new routes, buses can be moved to other routes, trams can't). Instead of light rail, why not a two-lane bus route? Is it a 'trams are stylish and European' thing? Are they significantly cheaper to run?

That said, it does seem a bit odd that the greater Dublin area is big enough to warrant DART, Luas and possibly DART underground & Metro services in addition to the bus & rail links; while the greater Cork area has just the bus & rail. Other than the obvious "Dublin is bigger, so it gets several transport options, Cork is smaller so it gets none", does anyone have access to any hard figures for this? How large does the population need to be to support additional transport services? How much daily traffic does there need to be on a given line?

After all, at most Cork would ever get just one line: Bishopstown (with possible future expansion to Ballincollig) to Mahon, via the city centre; and there's a readily available route for the Eastern half of that route which would surely alleviate the costs.

You know the argument they commonly use in Dublin to justify the costs of many large scale infrastructure projects (not just transport but also hospitals, event centers, leisure complexes, etc.) is that "it's for the people of Ireland" or "people from all over the country will come to use it". Brass necks.

reprazant

The Dart and bus run at a loss afaik. The underground is just linking the two Luas lines together. The metro north was to link the city with airport as it is a nightmare to get to or from the airport without paying an arm and a leg if are unsure of where to go.

The luas works as it services areas with,for the most part, terrible transport links and even it is attempting cost cutting measures now.

Does the Midleton line not run at a loss currently?

namloc1980

becost wrote: »

Seeing as I'm not originally from Cork and don't live there anymore, how can I be suffering from this second city syndrome plus that's a mildly derogatory phrase usually used by Dubs about Cork people! I don't care if you all commute around the city on space hoppers. And who commissioned this viability study? A government reluctant to invest in transport infrastructure outside it's capital city? Even without the redeveloped docklands, a light rail line from Rochestown to Ballincollig taking in MP, Blackrock, City Center, UCC, Victoria Cross, CUH, CIT and all the suburbs in between couldn't possibly fail, that is unless people boycotted it for some bizarre reason but I know from living in Cork for many years that there are plenty of backwards people whose behavior and mentality just leaves you scratching your head. But some great people there as well. Just harder to find!

The study was commissioned by the City Council and carried out by MVA consultants. I presume you have conducted your own viability study and perhaps you might be able to enlighten us as to where they went wrong in their assessment: LINK

DannyBuoy

And here was I thinking this was a thread about the LEAP card coming to Cork..

namloc1980

DannyBuoy wrote: »

And here was I thinking this was a thread about the LEAP card coming to Cork..

And it is. It's a great step forward and hopefully it will help encourage more use of public transport in the city.

murphym7

DannyBuoy wrote: »

And here was I thinking this was a thread about the LEAP card coming to Cork..

Well said my friend. I don't know what I am more bored with the fact that this thread is very much off topic or what picture becost is going to use next for the space hopper joke. There have been at least two so far. Can we go back to Leap cards please?

D'Agger

DannyBuoy wrote: »

And here was I thinking this was a thread about the LEAP card coming to Cork..

murphym7 wrote: »

Well said my friend. I don't know what I am more bored with the fact that this thread is very much off topic or what picture becost is going to use next for the space hopper joke. There have been at least two so far. Can we go back to Leap cards please?

Shocking Horror: introduction of unified transport card results in conversation about current, proposed & future transport systems which would use aforementioned card.

smurgen

the transport system in cork is retarded. you can buy a return bus ticket from cork to midleton but you cant but a monthly ticket. now I know there's the railway but the times aren't as convenient for me and the bus station isn't as close to my house. in all fairness,it would only take some administrative work to sort out a monthly bus ticket there.

KCAccidental

smurgen wrote: »

the transport system in cork is retarded. you can buy a return bus ticket from cork to midleton but you cant but a monthly ticket. now I know there's the railway but the times aren't as convenient for me and the bus station isn't as close to my house. in all fairness,it would only take some administrative work to sort out a monthly bus ticket there.

they want you to take the train to rationalize the money paid out to rebuild the line a few years ago.

It's not that they can't do it, it's that they won't!

namloc1980

smurgen wrote: »

the transport system in cork is retarded. you can buy a return bus ticket from cork to midleton but you cant but a monthly ticket. now I know there's the railway but the times aren't as convenient for me and the bus station isn't as close to my house. in all fairness,it would only take some administrative work to sort out a monthly bus ticket there.

About halfway down the page. link