Legal situation re property being overlooked?

Ninap

Hi

We live in a row of modern terraced houses, with an open plan glazed living area on the first floor. Our neighbour has taken to spending considerable time on his flat roof, from where he (and his occasional guests) can look directly into our living room. We have spoken to him and he is unwilling to refrain from going on the roof, despite the fact that it is a huge invasion of our privacy. Any thoughts on the legal situation or the best way to tackle this? Thanks

Kristopherus

How many windows in the living room? Can you put something on the glass that allows you to look at him, but he cannot see you. If he's being obstinate, that might be the best way to sort the problem.

TheChizler

Unless they've got binoculars or cameras set up pointing at you it's really not his obligation to change. Curtains? Trellis and ivy if it's your property and he's ok with it?

Cathmandooo

Can you put a fence up? Even one with gaps to let the light in but gives a bit more privacy

Ninap

Kristopherus wrote: »

How many windows in the living room? Can you put something on the glass that allows you to look at him, but he cannot see you. If he's being obstinate, that might be the best way to sort the problem.

Thanks, but there is a very large glazed area in our property, and it would not be practical to cover it (and I don't think we should have to).

Ninap

Cathmandooo wrote: »

Can you put a fence up? Even one with gaps to let the light in but gives a bit more privacy

Again, the design of the property doesn't allow for such an arrangement. Thanks though.

It's more akin to someone being in a position to peer directly in at a glass wall and roof at the back of your house, through which you get your light.

Ninap

TheChizler wrote: »

Unless they've got binoculars or cameras set up pointing at you it's really not his obligation to change. Curtains? Trellis and ivy if it's your property and he's ok with it?

He wouldn't need binoculars. He's about 8 feet away!

copacetic

It's not for you to tell your neighbour he can't go on his own roof, just because you feel it is an invasion of your privacy. Your privacy doesn't extend to controlling what other people do on their own property and attempting to tell him what he can and can't do is pretty much totally out of order.

Your best option is to screen the boundary from his flat roof to above eye height.

Ninap

copacetic wrote: »

It's not for you to tell your neighbour he can't go on his own roof, just because you feel it is an invasion of your privacy. Your privacy doesn't extend to controlling what other people do on their own property and attempting to tell him what he can and can't do is pretty much totally out of order.

Your best option is to screen the boundary from his flat roof to above eye height.

I think you're mistaken. Basic planning regulations always take account of issues such as overlooking another property.

copacetic

Ninap wrote: »

I think you're mistaken. Basic planning regulations always take account of issues such as overlooking another property.

That would be if he was to build an extension on his roof and say put a window directly looking in to your property, he wouldn't get approval. He doesn't need planning permission to go on to his own roof.

Ninap

copacetic wrote: »

That would be if he was to build an extension on his roof and say put a window directly looking in to your property, he wouldn't get approval. He doesn't need planning permission to go on to his own roof.

The properties weren't designed to allow people to go on the roof.

Victor

For it to happen once or on rare occasions isn't a legal problem. Doing it persistently (might it be because it is sunny?) and that it knowingly upsets the neighbours is a problem.

Potentially, you make a Garda complaint for harassment or a civil complaint for harassment and/or invasion of privacy. It would be useful to speak to a solicitor. But realise that any formal complaint is likely to result if a further deterioration of your relationship with the neighbour. Talk to other neighbours also.

You could try a reflective window film, although it might not be great in a living room.

RustyNut

Ninap wrote: »

I think you're mistaken. Basic planning regulations always take account of issues such as overlooking another property.

But he is not looking for planning permission. Are you really suggesting that your neighbour should not make full use of his property because you don't like him having a view of your property ?

Ninap

Victor wrote: »

For it to happen once or on rare occasions isn't a legal problem. Doing it persistently (might it be because it is sunny?) and that it knowingly upsets the neighbours is a problem.

Potentially, you make a Garda complaint for harassment or a civil complaint for harassment and/or invasion of privacy. It would be useful to speak to a solicitor. But realise that any formal complaint is likely to result if a further deterioration of your relationship with the neighbour. Talk to other neighbours also.

You could try a reflective window film, although it might not be great in a living room.

Yes, a once-off wouldn't be a problem. Every day is.
I agree it's always preferable to deal with an issue amicably if at all possible. This looks unlikely here, unfortunately.

Ninap

RustyNut wrote: »

But he is not looking for planning permission. Are you really suggesting that your neighbour should not make full use of his property because you don't like him having a view of your property ?

Yes, I am. I could go on my roof in the exact same way, but that would mean looking directly into the living space of my neighbour on the other side. I don't think that would be appropriate.

wexie

Out of interest, are the house in the terrace all the same? As in : all have the same open plan living area with lots of glass?

Ninap

wexie wrote: »

Out of interest, are the house in the terrace all the same? As in : all have the same open plan living area with lots of glass?

Yes. But only one property has installed a ladder to allow easy access to the roof, and consequent invasion of our privacy.

murphaph

I think it will be very hard to enforce anything against the neighbour but he is being ignorant by the sounds of it. I'd put a camcorder on a tripod pointing right at his roof to try to spook him. Doesn't have to be recording and probably shouldn't be!

wexie

murphaph wrote: »

I think it will be very hard to enforce anything against the neighbour but he is being ignorant by the sounds of it. I'd put a camcorder on a tripod pointing right at his roof to try to spook him. Doesn't have to be recording and probably shouldn't be!

I'm by no means a legal expert but I'd imagine that'd be a great way to get into trouble with the gards yourself...

Ninap

Yes, unfortunately I think you're right. There probably isn't an easy legal remedy; the situation requires a basic understanding of what constitutes acceptable behaviour, something our neighbour doesn't seem to have. (And some posters on here don't appear to have either, although not knowing the configuration of our properties probably means they don't appreciate just how intrusive our neighour's behaviour is.)

kippy

Not sure about the legal standpoint but I would ask this.
Has this neighbour always been there? Have you been in your house long and has the room you are discussing always been there?

I find it rather strange that someone who lives in a glass house expects privacy from their neighbours to be completely honest.
He has as much right, I would suggest, to use his property as you do yours.
Ultimately I believe if you require more privacy from him that the onus is on you to get that without impacting on his rights......

wexie

It's an awkward one, it's entirely possible that your neighbour doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and thinks you're being completely unreasonable. But from what you're describing it doesn't sound very nice.

The majority of the time I'm not doing anything in my house I wouldn't do in front of other people, I still wouldn't want anybody watching me do it though.

If this is a newer estate there might well be a management / owners association, you could always see if there are any estate by-laws / regulations or some such thing? You could bring it up with the neighbours and see how they feel? Maybe have it mentioned at an AGM or something?

I think your best bet though, is talking to your neighbour, maybe get him to sit in his sitting room with you on your roof? But, if he's actually gone so far as to install a ladder it sounds like he intends to make it a regular thing.

copacetic

Ninap wrote: »

Yes, unfortunately I think you're right. There probably isn't an easy legal remedy; the situation requires a basic understanding of what constitutes acceptable behaviour, something our neighbour doesn't seem to have. (And some posters on here don't appear to have either, although not knowing the configuration of our properties probably means they don't appreciate just how intrusive our neighour's behaviour is.)

I think most people understand your problem and appreciate that your neighbour is out of order.

They are just trying to tell you that our 'rights' are minimal and there is little enough you can do. There are a 1000 things your neighbour can do to make your life a misery, most of them legal.

You are getting people telling you that your rights aren't what you think mixed up with people supporting your neighbours actions. Your responses would likely make people lean to thinking that you mightn't have a great attitude to people who don't see things your way. Possibly part of why things have gotten out of hand with your neighbour.

Ninap

At the risk of labouring the point, our neighbour's roof overlooks the internal courtyard of our house. When he is on the roof, he could tap on our perspex roof, and could - if he wanted - drop down into our courtyard. He is about 8 foot max from the windows of our living room and can see literally everything we are doing. The roof is not designed to be a useable space, but that one house in the row has installed a ladder to allow access. No other neighbour uses their roof in a similar fashion because they realise it would be highly inappropriate to be able to peer into their neighbour's house.

sunnysoutheast

Is the neighbouring house rented? If so you may get some traction with the landlord. May.

Otherwise the only potential avenue I can think of is that there has been an effective change of use of the roof to a balcony which may interest planning or building control. I'm afraid I don't know if the council would actually take any action however.

xper

Ninap wrote: »

... The roof is not designed to be a useable space, but that one house in the row has installed a ladder to allow access. ...

I've seen plenty of examples of planning applications for extensions that, because they are taking up a significant chunk of garden, incorporate a balcony or roof garden at the first floor level the extension. Most frequently, permission is granted for the extension minus the rooftop garden exactly because it would overlook neighbours' property.

Now, I could not say if leaning or affixing a ladder to a building to gain access to a rooftop constitutes non-permitted development and,even if it does, how you could go about using this to enforce a solution (just think of the number of converted attics that are used as bedrooms despite being explicitly forbidden from being used as a habitable room) but maybe checking out the original planning permission of your complex and a call to your local authority planning department may be in order.


On a completely different tack, depending on the angle of light and the glass used, you might be surprised how little you can see into a room from outside even from close up.

ted1

I'd also check with the planning office, this indeed is a change of use.

On a side note, your neighbour sounds like a right tool.

The_Conductor

You can get a reflective skin to put on your window- so it looks like a mirror from the outside, but you can see out without difficulty. The way the polarisation works with this though- is its like a blackout blind at night- only inside becomes visible in the dark. Explore the options.

I'd be very hesitant to take action against the neighbour- do you really want to live next door to someone who hates your guts?

Ninap

Thanks for helpful replies.

Having done a bit more searching I see that using a flat roof of an extension as a balcony or roof garden requires planning permission:

(From Dun Laoghaire Rathdown CC (but repeated elsewhere):

"Can I build a balcony / roof garden on my extension without permission?
No - specifically excluded from exemption by Part 1, Schedule 2, Column 2, Condition 7."

kippy

Ninap wrote: »

Thanks for helpful replies.

Having done a bit more searching I see that using a flat roof of an extension as a balcony or roof garden requires planning permission:

(From Dun Laoghaire Rathdown CC (but repeated elsewhere):

"Can I build a balcony / roof garden on my extension without permission?
No - specifically excluded from exemption by Part 1, Schedule 2, Column 2, Condition 7."

Have you any interest in answering my questions?

Grandpa Hassan

Ninap wrote: »

Thanks for helpful replies.

Having done a bit more searching I see that using a flat roof of an extension as a balcony or roof garden requires planning permission:

(From Dun Laoghaire Rathdown CC (but repeated elsewhere):

"Can I build a balcony / roof garden on my extension without permission?
No - specifically excluded from exemption by Part 1, Schedule 2, Column 2, Condition 7."

The question is whether sitting on a roof changes it into a roof garden. I would have thought that a roof garden or balcony would be defined as having some kind of physical features characteristic of those things. The presence of a person I wouldn't have thought changes a roof into a balcony or garden.

LowKeyReturn

I like to sun bathe on my roof. Due to the design of the house opposite the neighbours are constantly looking at me through their large glazed front to their house. Can I sue?

Ninap

kippy wrote: »

Not sure about the legal standpoint but I would ask this.
Has this neighbour always been there? Have you been in your house long and has the room you are discussing always been there?

I find it rather strange that someone who lives in a glass house expects privacy from their neighbours to be completely honest.
He has as much right, I would suggest, to use his property as you do yours.
Ultimately I believe if you require more privacy from him that the onus is on you to get that without impacting on his rights......

I thought your questions were fairly rhetorical. But seeing as you want a reply, my neighbour is renting, and has been for a while. We have resumed living in our house about a year ago, having been away for a while. The houses are identical and have not been extended. They use a lot of glass to maximise light in a small space - it doesn't mean we forego any right to privacy. As I mention above, planners deal with these sort of issues fairly regularly - people sometimes wish to use their properties in ways that would unfairly or negatively impact on others, and thus are denied their wishes.

ted1

A private nusiance is what is happening here

kippy

Ninap wrote: »

I thought your questions were fairly rhetorical. But seeing as you want a reply, my neighbour is renting, and has been for a while. We have resumed living in our house about a year ago, having been away for a while. The houses are identical and have not been extended. They use a lot of glass to maximise light in a small space - it doesn't mean we forego any right to privacy. As I mention above, planners deal with these sort of issues fairly regularly - people sometimes wish to use their properties in ways that would unfairly or negatively impact on others, and thus are denied their wishes.

Planners deal with this, generally before the planning has been granted.

I think you'll find that there's been a lot of issues with planning in the past decade and indeed lots of issues around bad planning. I believe you will find it very difficult to change this guys behavior if you go down querying the planning laws.
Approaching the landlord and mentioning your concerns MAY be the way to begin the process but I would tread carefully.

Bigcheeze

what's he doing up there every day ?

Victor

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

I like to sun bathe on my roof. Due to the design of the house opposite the neighbours are constantly looking at me through their large glazed front to their house. Can I sue?

Behave.

Moderator

---

Yes, you could sue, but you would be unsuccessful.

The problem being that you would be using your roof for an unintended use, while they would be using their house and windows for it's intended use, what with them pointing at walls and roofs, not gardens and windows.

It may also get around that you like watching the unsuspecting 19 year in the house on the other side from your roof-top perch.

djimi

Is he actually looking into your property or is it just that he can see into it? I live in an apartment where most of my neighbours can see into my living room. Most of the time it's not an issue, however for those times where I don't want to be seen I will close the curtains...

Unless this guy is making a point of staring into your property for the whole time he is up there I really wouldn't worry about it. Chances are he has absolutely no interest in watching you go about your business.

murphaph

wexie wrote: »

I'm by no means a legal expert but I'd imagine that'd be a great way to get into trouble with the gards yourself...

For what? Pointing a switched off empty camcorder at his flat roof? What would they charge you with?

foggy_lad

Ninap wrote: »

Thanks for helpful replies.

Having done a bit more searching I see that using a flat roof of an extension as a balcony or roof garden requires planning permission:

(From Dun Laoghaire Rathdown CC (but repeated elsewhere):

"Can I build a balcony / roof garden on my extension without permission?
No - specifically excluded from exemption by Part 1, Schedule 2, Column 2, Condition 7."

A roof garden for the purpose of the planning laws would probably have to have some kind of planters or garden furniture. the Ladder can be said to be there for maintenance assess.

LowKeyReturn

Victor wrote: »

Behave.

Moderator

Sorry. Apologies OP also.

---

Victor wrote: »

Yes, you could sue, but you would be unsuccessful.

The problem being that you would be using your roof for an unintended use, while they would be using their house and windows for it's intended use, what with them pointing at walls and roofs, not gardens and windows.

It may also get around that you like watching the unsuspecting 19 year in the house on the other side from your roof-top perch.

Pffft... cunning webcam set-ups are much better.

Ninap

foggy_lad wrote: »

A roof garden for the purpose of the planning laws would probably have to have some kind of planters or garden furniture. the Ladder can be said to be there for maintenance assess.

He seems to have a barbeque and maybe some chairs up there.

ardmacha

Net curtains (or their modern equivalent). Problem solved.
You can look out, people cannot see in.

Victor

murphaph wrote: »

For what? Pointing a switched off empty camcorder at his flat roof? What would they charge you with?

In theory, if the roof is known to be used, there is an invasion of privacy / harassment issue if the roof or things on the roof can be seen.

RATM

xper wrote: »

On a completely different tack, depending on the angle of light and the glass used, you might be surprised how little you can see into a room from outside even from close up.

+1

Half the time these privacy disputes are because the person *thinks* people can see in and watch them. But a lot of the time they actually can't.

In the OP's situation my guess is that the neighbour is enjoying a bit of sunshine from the roof for a few days while it lasts. His neighbours attitude is probably something along the lines of 'does yer man think I come up here just to look at him???'. And in a way who could blame him ? In all likelihood he is just out for a bit of sun and warm air and not doing it to walk on anyones privacy.

I do still sympathise with the OP but can't really see any remedy to all this. Just out of interest OP- when he gets onto his roof is there a flat section where he can put a table/chairs or is the guy literally lying up against a pitched roof ?

djimi

RATM wrote: »

+1

Half the time these privacy disputes are because the person *thinks* people can see in and watch them. But a lot of the time they actually can't.

Fair point. In my last place I had a biggish living room window that overlooked the road and I thought that everyone could see into my living room until I went down and looked up and realised that you couldnt see anything in the room unless it was right up against the glass. That was during the day; obviously at night its a different story, but thats the same for any window at night.

Chris_5339762

Does anyone else think it a bit harsh of the OP to try to prevent someone from enjoying this rare bit of nice weather by sitting on their roof?? Once the atlantic lows start rolling in again he won't be on his roof anymore.

kennethsmyth

Emmm.... don't want to point out the obvious but its not the neighbours roof, its the landlords roof. If that roof is a felt covered roof and not concrete he's damaging the landlords property and the landlord should be informed. There's more than one way to skin a cat.:D

Boombastic

Plant some trees

kennethsmyth

Ninap wrote: »

I thought your questions were fairly rhetorical. But seeing as you want a reply, my neighbour is renting, and has been for a while. We have resumed living in our house about a year ago, having been away for a while. The houses are identical and have not been extended. They use a lot of glass to maximise light in a small space - it doesn't mean we forego any right to privacy. As I mention above, planners deal with these sort of issues fairly regularly - people sometimes wish to use their properties in ways that would unfairly or negatively impact on others, and thus are denied their wishes.

:rolleyes:

Ninap

Just to add to the available info, the roofs are flat, and felt covered. We had to completely redo our roof two years ago, so walking on it is probably not recommended.

As for whether you can see in through our windows, unfortunately the answer is yes, as I know from having been up on our roof (when it was being repaired), and being able to see in to our neighbour's on the other side.

And, yes, the guy is up there more than usual due to the good weather. But he's up there every day, and has been up there regularly even before the good weather started.

We spoke to him and said it wouldn't be a problem if it was the odd occasion (just as we've no problem with him having the occasional party).

My wife in particular doesn't like to have him up there, including with friends, liable to look in at her at any moment.